tsoc

Do either of you archery hunt or muzzleloader hunt? Those seasons would permit a doe or buck in the archery,and a doe or buck in the muzzleloader unless you had filled your regular season buck tag.

SteveBNy

Why do they need to be limited?
So they don't shoot your future trophy?

Less then 1/2 the hunters in the state bow or mz hunt - those who don't, stand a very good chance of not drawing a doe tag.
Plus the mz season can be really nasty in the real upstate areas - combine that with the need to purchase and learn a new weapon should not be the only option for hunters to actually shoot a deer.

Steve

Airborneguy

No Steve, because you are quick to point out that it would be unhealthy to target "60% of the 1 1/2 year bucks in NY that are 6 point or better", so I posted a question to you:

"1. How is targeting ANY buck, at any time, better?"

If you answered the first one, the second one was quite obvious... YOU seem concerned about the health of the herd in that targeting "60% of the 1 1/2 year bucks in NY that are 6 point or better" (your words regarding 3pt restrictions), would not be beneficial, so my question was:

Why is targeting ALL OF THEM, ALL OF THE TIME, BETTER?

You read my post, so maybe you chose to skip that one intentionally? It's a fairly obvious question when you are so adamant that antler restrictions would lead to the disproportionate targeting of 1 1/2 y.o. bucks... but the current regulation basically is "shoot any buck" anyway. So what's the difference?

PS.. JF5 posed the same question to you in different words..

In your own words:

"Look forward to your explanation. "

SteveBNy

I'll try to make this easy for you.
Here are the 3 quotes from posts in this thread where I mentioned 1 1/2 old bucks.


In not one of them do I say " it would be unhealthy to target these bucks". (I know where the bold key is as well).

You guys are the ones who wantstatewide points based AR/TM. I challenged you to prove that letting spikes and forks walk while targetting the best 1 1/2 bucks would make the herd "healthy", or "healthier" then it is now - especially statewide with the enormous variables in herd numbers and habitat.
Don't see where you have come close to an explanation - just a desire to shoot something with a little bigger set of antlers.
Someone suggested that the hunters wanting to be able to shoot a doe when no permit is available in their unit should simply hunt somewhere else.
Might be good advise for the horn hunters as well - NY Outdoor Newsbi monthly photos clearly show that NY produces a lot of outstanding backs.

Every deer I've shot in the last 6 years in Central NY have been very healthy. If you answer the above question, here is another:
How would your mandatory points based AR have made any of these20 plus deer any healthier?

Steve

Airborneguy

I'm going to answer every one of these questions, but I then expect an answer to mine: how is targeting ANY buck better?

First, lets focus on the word "prove". I cannot and won't attempt to prove anything. I, as everyone on this board except apparently you, am just attempting to offer my opinion, which is all I can do since I am not a wildlife biologist or a DEC manager. If you are, then so be it, but I don't see how you are "proving" anything either.

Secondly, I do have a desire to shoot something bigger, not trying to hide that at all. I'd say most hunters have that same desire, and those who say they don't are lying or really need the meat as part of their survival (thankfully, I don't and God willling never will). I also do not feel that there is anything wrong with wanting to shoot a trophy if you are hunting it in the true sense and not paying to visit high-fenced ranches. I abhor and would never do anything like that, since I have the utmost respect for the life I take when hunting.

I'd also venture to say that anyone who takes the time to frequently post on a hunting website (or run one like me), is a step ahead of the average hunter, so most of us here are not in it for the survival and are either dedicated hunters or young ones who may become such in the future.

Your most direct question, regarding the deer you have shot, is misleading. No one has ever said that AR would make individual deer more healthy, as your question implies we have, but that it would make the herd more healthy as a whole by bringing about a more balanced age structure. Being familiar with restrictions in other states, and their results, I do believe this statement to be true. Be thankful we do not have a lottery based system for all hunts, like most western states. I have a friend in Colorado who has been trying to hunt Elk for 3 years without drawing one tag! And even then, in some zones he would have to follow antler restrictions.

There is also the argument that AR would protect genetically inferior bucks which remain forks and spikes as they grow older. TRUE... but with the options, what else could be done? There is no chance you are going to get the average hunter to recognize a bucks age in the field, which would be the ultimate way to practice QDM for those who would like to.

So that leads to my question to you: if a thriving herd is all of ours goal, not in regards to antler size, but in proper age structure and maintaining a healthy breeding, stable population...

...then how is targeting EVERY BUCK at ANY TIME (which the 3in rule basically does), better than setting antler restrictions?

(PS.. the bold quotes of mine came directly from you or other people, they were already bold when I copied them from previous posts)

SteveBNy

I have never given the "opinion" that it was.

So if they don't agree with your opinion, (few are subsitance hunters), they are probably lying? Not too broad a stroke there is it?

So if the individuals are all heathy and thriving, are you saying the herd is unhealthy - your opinion of course?

.

First, I would need to know the "health" of the entire herd was in danger before attempting any statewide program - proof, not "opinion".

Second, I would have to understand how narrowing the pressure onto the best of the 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 could possibly be better then keeping the pressure on the entire buck herd.

Third , how is a 90 class 2 1/2 8 point buck ( young, immature deer)any more a trophy then a spike, and why should your opinion that it is weigh heavier then the hunter happy with his spike.

There are many others - you are pushing for change. Therefore proof that the changes would be beneficial is a burdan that is yours. You cannot possibly be suggesting that the entire state should impliment your "opinion" simple because you think it will help something ( still undefined)?

Tell me that you and all points based AR/TM guys are not shooting any buck not mature (at least 4 1/2) to do your personal bit at helping to provide " a proper age structure and maintain a healthy breeding, stable population" and I would be impressed. Otherwise all you have is an opinion (like others) and not a case for dictating to all hunters how they hunt.

Steve

Airborneguy

Forget it. twisting words, answering individual phrases... calling me out, typical internet argument tactics... that is why I usually bow out once it degrades to that, they are pointless.

Airborneguy

"Otherwise all you have is an opinion (like others)"

PS.. thanks for repeating, quite clearly, exactly what I quite clearly stated about myself.

Unlike some, I never professed to have anything other than an opinion here.

Furthermore, it looks like we are going to AR in NY anyway, so I guess I got my way, without having to prove it to you anyway!

SteveBNy

3 small wmu's - I give - you win.

Sounds like the unwillingness or inability to defend and support you opinion.
Bye
Steve

Airborneguy

100%.. 'cause it is impossible to defend you position or give an opinion when the other party can twist words much better than you can.