Buck Or Doe?
 

Someone mentioned on a post why not go to a buck or doe instead of antlerd and antlerless deer.I think that is a good idea.
If Gary Alt wants to control how many buck or doe we have then call them what mother nature calls them either they are a buck or a doe.If the first deer you shoot is a button buck or has pts. 3in. or less you tag it as a buck.Then you won't be going out and shooting another buck by tagging it as a doe.
It would not solve all the problems because I understand the next deer you shoot could be a button buck and you would have to tag it as a doe but it would keep hunters who tagged the first one from going and shooting maybe an 8pt. and the total would be 2 bucks shot.It would make hunters decide do I want to be careful and wait for the 8pt. I thought that was what Gary Alt wanted in some counties next year.Some of the reason they say there are too many doe around is an adult doe with 2 fawns born at hunting time they are concidered 3 doe and tagged that way.When actually according to mother nature it could even be one adult doe,one doe fawn, and one buck fawn.Or even,one adult doe,and 2 buck fawns.Unless they make it to another year the fawns are all concidered doe's shot tagged and logged that way in the PGC figures.We are losing alot of future bucks this way by shooting button bucks.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

I'm basically in agreement with Alts plans but I haven't seen him take any stabs at this issue. That's more than a bit dissappointing.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

Buckhunter3, that's not actually all that bad of an idea. It would certainly make more reckless shooters identify their targets. The downfall is all the slobs that would let a button lay because they wouldn't want to forfiet the buck tag at their gross neglegence. It all comes down to personal respondsibility to the shooter. Identify a doe is a doe before the lead is slung.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

What ever it takes to protect a button buck,Im for.Makes no sense at all to launch a management program with the thought of increasing the buck heard then blast all the button buck in a liberal doe season.I got my problem solved for next year.Im going with Alt Hunting on his private club.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

I see some good points brought out.I think your right Rob/Pa it would depend on the honesty of Pa hunters.What would make it worse is they may do it more then once waiting for the 8pt or better good point.
I just agree like cardeer, at sometime even Alt is going to have protect the button bucks
when all the legal bucks get shot these bucks born now are your future big bucks sooner or later.I Know the buck to doe ratio here is out of hand but I thought if even a button buck gets shot and is tagged as a buck and not a doe we might get a better figure on how many buck and doe there are.
That is really all I am after a true figure.
I wish they would put on our tags a place for button bucks or 3in.or less and even if tagged with a doe tag it could be recorded as a buck.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

Lochorns.I am glad you wrote back.I hope you don't think I was stealing your Idea I just remember seeing it and thought it was a good Idea.Now that you mentioned they do it in texas, I hear their buck to doe ratio is unbelieveable.It must be working some how.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

BH3 you weren't stealing an idea, protecting buttons has been a subject here that has had almost 100% approval for several months. It sounds like Texas is on the right track.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

Slobs and the honesty of the PA hunter.
THAT is the toughest challenge that deer management faces in this state.
You can make all the regs and rules you want but if people don't follow them, you could never understand and know if they work or not.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

Wimp has got a good point...how? I'm all for protecting button bucks, but I don't think changing the name of the tags is the way to go.

If a hunter harvests his "buck" on the first day, and goies after his "doe" the following weekend... he shoots a button buck, now what? Is he a poacher? Is it illegal?

You all have discussed about slob hunter's not wanting to tag the button they thought was a doe(before they harvested a legal buck). What if the situation is different? What happens in this situation?

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If Texas has some policy to protect young bucks that has worked, maybe we could learn from them. Any Texans out there?

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

I HUNT IN N.Y. SOUTHERNTIER OUR D.M.P TAGS HAVE A PLACE FOR ID. MALE, FEMALE, ADULT, FAWN. SO THEY CAN COUNT EXACTLY WHAT WAS SHOT.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

huntal,That is exactly all I was after the true count of how many harvested and exactly according to mother nature what they are.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

I think most will agree that there's virtually no excuse for an archer shooting a button buck. It gets a bit more complicated in the gun season. How about this: The first male deer shot costs you your buck tag, period. That will make some but not all guys more careful, don't you think? If a guy is out with a doe tag after that with a gun and he shoots another button he is atleast done for that year, no matter how many tags he still holds. Maybe some small penalty is he turns it in, but a big one if he walks. Some may be left to lay. Others will get tagged by someone in the party (we all know that happens a lot here) The bottom line is that there isn't a perfect way to protect buttons but isn't less than perfect still better than not at all? At the very least protect em in bow season!

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

BtBowhunter,I was laid off this year and bow hunted most of the season.I had a chance to shoot a 4pt and a small 6pt. but saw a bigger buck before them but couldn't shoot.I would of shot the 6pt if I didn't have all the time off I did to hunt because I am not a trophy hunter myself.I will not shoot a 60lb.deer even if it is not a button buck.
I like deer meat too much to bring home a deer like that.I think you are right on about the first deer you shoot it should be tagged what it really is a buck.And if the second deer is a buck as you stated then tag it as so and your done.Two deer both bucks in my book how can you complain.Even though you would maybe have a doe tag left some may say well it should be used to shoot a doe it was in the Quota that was set by the PGC but you already shot a button buck with a tag and under the game laws a button buck is a doe not a buck untill he makes it to the next season.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

They could tweak the quota's for this cotnigency. No method of protecting buttons is going to be flawless but any method is better than the one we got now!

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

I agree!

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

Wow, I actually agree with BTBowhunter on this subject, thats a first <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Anyways though, I think that I have a good solution, it is along the same lines as BT's. Okay, we should have a male and female tag. PERIOD! If a hunter shoots a button buck, he MUST tag it with his MALE tag, if he goes out hunting the following day and shoots ANOTHER button buck, he MUST tag that with his FEMALE TAG, but this would be the catch, I would make him pay the difference between a FEMALE tag and a MALE tag, thats like 15 dollars. I think that this would help this problem out ALOT, what do you guys think. With this extra money, maybe they could hire more game commissioners.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

Kinda along the same lines I was thinking A small penalty, not one big enough to leave em lay, but still a penalty

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

Buck Magnet,It seems like in Pa you must set a law to get not all but alot of hunters to follow the game laws,and if a fine is the way to go so be it.They will either live with it or find a way to come up with the money.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

Who's gonna fine the guys that make a mistake? You're going to leave it up to the individual to report himself and pay the $25 fine? It can't work on the honor system. Too many hunters, not enough enforcement.

What about shooting an adult deer late in the season? You've filled your &quot;buck&quot; tag, and this is your &quot;doe&quot; tag now. The ADULT deer you just shot was a buck that shed his antlers. What now? I understand the basis for what you're saying, but in all actuallity it's impossible to do and still cover the bases.

Let's put in CHECK STATIONS too! We can put 2 in every county. That's about...3700 deer checked on the first day. Assuming nearly 500,000 deer shot on the first day of firearms deer season. That's real practical.

Let's add it up...

134 Stations
At least 3 people/station
Average $10/hr/person
Added operating $...paperwork, computers, etc
Assume 15hr/person per day

$60,300 in wages min.
GOD knows what it would cost to get the People there and costs for supplies.
This is only one day! Plus, in 15hrs the workers would have to constantly check a deer approx. Every 15 seconds!
Obviously the deer harvests in some counties is higher and there would need to be more stations. Less in others. But still, you'd have to drive to the check station...in some counties, that might be an hours drive.

IT JUST ISN'T PRACTICAL...JUST LIKE THE &quot;DOE/ANTLERLESS & BUCK/ANTLERED&quot; SITUATION YOU'RE ALL FUSSING OVER NOW.

First you whined about the PGC not doing enough. Now you bitch because they're trying to do something. When something goes through you don't like the way it's going to happen. When you get sick of whining about one thing, you find something else. What next?

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

Jason, Make it a nominal fine if you turn it in and a whopper if you don't. Most guys are honest and will comply. They may grumble but I'll bet they get just a wee bit more careful!.

Adult deer, shed bucks, in doe season... same as a button

WVA has the answer to your check station problem... convenience stores get less than a 1$ stipend for checking deer. It's been a few years since I got this fact and the number may not be perfect. They do it to get traffic in and sell coffee, gas, slim jims etc because of it. they look at the deer, count points, check sex and ask what area it was shot in. 60 seconds or less. BTW they love it when a whopper comes in... they sell even more pop and coffee when a crowd forms!

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

Md does it the same way, the girl behind the counter at the Texaco checks them in. Takes about 1 minute. I guess the station gets paid per deer, or per season, but it's pretty easy. The DNR takes over with a scale and tooth aging on random days at random stations to get their data. Works just fine as far as I can see.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

That is a GREAT idea BTBowhunter. It would bring more money into the convenience store and any hunter has a convenience store close to them. The only thing that I can see going wrong is that people wouldn't take the deer to the check station. But, it would help out with the honest people. You can't have a perfect answer, but this one is close to it.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

I'll go with the the check stations as far convienient stores, I guess I was only thinking PGC run and regulated sites...like the bear check stations.

Do you lose the deer if you turn it in?

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

I think confiscation would be counterproductive and give the guy very little incentive to drag it out of the woods. JMHO!

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

I've already heard the subject of fines for illegal bucks if AR pass next year from a couple guys. If they fine you AND take your deer, what's the sense of dragging it out in the first place. If they just fine you and you can keep your deer you'll have a better return. Myself being one of those guys who shot a button buck the last two years and tagged it with my antlerless tag(cause that's what the law states), I can tell you that I will not be shooting ANY antlerless deer until my Antlered tag is filled. Maybe during archery season when it is easier to identify the sex, but in gun season I think it's too hard to tell from the distance you can shoot. If I and others pass up a couple does next year not wanting to take the chance that they are buttons, won't this defeat the whole idea of shrinking the doe herd. Don't get me wrong, if the law states tag your deer with the sex appropriate tag, then that's what I'll do. I don't break the law, but I'm not gonna take the chance that it may be a button either. I do agree with the idea that if you shoot two buttons then your hunting is over.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

Same as in NJ small stores like Wawa do the checking for us and only takes a few minutes and it brings in extra money to the store.

I like the buck or doe season tags and have mentioned to before too. Like another said it might not be perfect but its better than it is now.

Rob I don't think that a lot of PA are in the slobs catagory. I know you have your share but not most just a few and I think that PA will be better off for it even though the slobs are out there.

Brian

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

I heard at one of Gary Alt's meetings when he first took over that he admitted he was new to manageing deer I was there.He said he would look into other states on how they manage their deer herd.Ohio has check stations conv. stores, bait shops etc.I think everyone here is not looking for anything special for themselves we all just want to find some way to get a more accurate figure on just how many deer in Pa are harvested each year.How many acutual bucks and does.The way it is now if 6 deer are shot
2 adult doe and 2 each of its fawns they are tagged as all doe the figures the PGC will use is a total of 6 doe.IN reality it could very well be 2 adult doe and 4 bucks.
If you look at mother natures standards we all who shoot a button buck and tag it as a doe are breaking the law.Some how Pa has got to come up with a better system on how many actual deer are harvested and what they are.
I think whether you are for A/R or any other proposal every hunter should want to know the real figure.Then you can manage from there.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

Yes, the numbers of deer recorded in our &quot;counting system&quot; right now is totally wrong. I believe that since QDM is what the future holds for us here in Pennsylvania. Why not try to have the best QDM plan out there. Get as accurate with the totals as you possibly can. Set up LOTS of food plots, put out commercial/adds/magazines/movies/television shows on QDM. I think that the Game Commission should go ALL out on this, if they are going to do anything at all. Another thing that they SHOULD do, is set up a law that no new outfitters can come in and set up. Then we could have a huge buck state that is still a natural habitat for animals. We would probablly have a TON of out of state hunters want to hunt here because they don't have to go through an outfitter. You know, REAL hunting.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

I believe I am on the same track as you Buck Magnet,but I don't know how the PGC could stop people with private land.I guess they would have to make it a law against charging people to hunt deer.If you think about it nobody owns any deer in Pa whether it be on private or public land.You have to obtain a permit to even raise deer.So why should anyone have the right to benefit from any deer in Pa.Just my own opinion.

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

Exactly. The deer are here for everyone to enjoy. Not just rich people who can throw down a grand or two just to hunt some big bucks. I would love to see the PGC put in a law that says they are not allowed to profit from the actual hunt for the animal. That way taxidermists and places that sell hunting equipment can still sell it, they will still be proffitting from deer hunting, but no outfitters will be allowed.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

Has the Game Commission even considered any ways to try and help protect button bucks?

RE: Buck Or Doe?
 

I don't think that they have at all.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)