I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

2pts on one side spike on other side = 3pts ? Illegal
Fork buck=4 pt ? Illegal

3pt on one side only ,nothing on other side? Legal

If thats the case then you can shoot a 3pt but not a 4 pt,so your still shooting a smaller buck then you really could,what the heck is with that?

OR Do I not understand and there must be 3 pts on both sides which would be a 6 pt? + legal

And I seen nothing about crossbows? Yea or nea?

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

CD,

Yes, you have it right. A "3 point on one side" buck would actually be classified as a 6 pointer. If one side of the antlers fell off then it doesn't change anything...the buck still, "probably" would have been at least a 5 pointer, if not a 6, provided that the other antler hadn't fallen off.

I believe that they are saying that if something like this were to happen then it would be such a small percentage of the overall bucks out there that they aren't going to change the regulation around to compensate for it.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Cardeer,I think they had better get alot of information both on the news and papers explaining what a legal buck will be and where before the next hunting season.In my county it will be at least 4Pts on one side.
The way I look at it if it is a full racked buck it will be an 8Pt buck or better that I or my son will have to go after this year.And you had better see every point or be fined.What if the brow tines are broken off less then an inch. Illegle.My family always drives deer most shots are moving fast or running how am I going to even with a scope tell that the buck has 4pt on one side.I thought the PGC wanted to keep youths interested in hunting.I now tell my son next year you have to shoot a buck that is at least an 8Pt.He did shoot one this year his first one and only one between 8 of us but also knows it doesn't happen every day.
If they want bigger bucks in Pa why would they make 8Pt. bucks or better the only deer legal to shoot.I thought Gary Alt said these are the dominant bucks that he wants to breed all these doe that he says are not getting bred.I am opened minded but not stupid.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

BH3
You pointed out something thatbothers me a good bit. When I attended Alt's meetings he said repeatedly that AR's wouldn't apply to juniors. Its appears that the PGC has forgotten/ignored the kids while saying they want to expand opportunities for them.
I personally like the AR's for adults and think that the example you gave about having to pass on a fast moving deer is a good thing. ( I know we will disagree on that)

I am really dissappointed that they have forgotten the kids and cringe at the thought of being by my son's side and telling him he can't shoot that forkhorn! Maybe that's a bit selfish but what dad isn't selfish when it comes to his kids?

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Not to step on toes, but the kids need to learn respect for the critters too! Instant gratification isn't the right way to get/keep kids involved in something. Besides, it looks like the trade off is being able to use the general tag for any doe anywhere.

Also, think of it like this...one year the hunting won't be that great. Next year(2003-2004), the hunting should be phanominal. We should have a large population of 2.5 year old bucks sporting 6, 8, & 10pt racks. All of the complaining from the 2002-2003 season will be forgoten. That is if this Deer Management Plan works. Only time will tell.

Keep in mind that these are "PRELIMINARY" regs. Alot changed last year in April.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

BtBowhunter,I actually agree on both points.
I think that if a young hunter today has to wait for an almost trophy deer in Pa like an 8Pt. he will lose interest in a heart beat.
Young people now adays have alot more things to do then when I was growing up.And maybe not all but most if it becomes too difficult right away they will drop it and go to something else.I think the PGC is making a big mistake on this and it will show in the future.As far as shooting at running deer I agree not the % shot most people want.I grew up driving deer with my dad and uncles.I will not say in the beginning I hit every deer I shot at but like trap shooting if I get a deer running across a field at around 100 to 150yds with my 30-06 760 pump 3x9 scope when the drivers hear shots and come out they know a harvested deer is some where.
They usually ask me how many deer there were.I would like to see every young hunter sit and wait on a deer to come by him maybe for a standing shot.This is just the way I have hunted for years with my brothers and nephews now and we have been successful with it.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

BH3
I think very few hunters have the skill you have at running deer. For every guy that can hit that deer I bet there a hundred that will miss/wound. I would feel confident at 100-150 yds as well if the shot was unobstructed but I don't think most guys are capable of a shot like that. JMHO!

Jason, you obviously don't have kids and can't understand my point. My kid will sit for hours and not complain but I think he is an exceptional 12 year old. Our sport desperately needs more youth involved and ANY measure to encourage them is worthwhile. I also think the overall effect on the herd from this small group would have an insignificant biological impact. As for the new doe reg for the kids, I think it's a positive but would still rather see the kids excluded from AR's as well.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

BTB, I shot my first buck at age 14, in fact I didn't see a buck until that age and I don't have a problem with a youngster learning the hard way and becoming experienced with each passing season. One of the reasons I believe I didn't see a buck was they all get shot too young. Yes my first was a 3 point but I'd been okay with waiting a year or two to take a more mature animal and that is all it's going to take. I know a guy in his 50's and has taken only one buck to date and it was a spike a few years ago and he's hunted every year since he was 12. The spike would have been illegal in a AR enviroment but had hunters been passing these animals starting years and years ago, that same 50 something would probably taken more bucks to date. I firmly believe that the buck population will grow and quality animals are going to be the result but this will only be a reality if respondsible hunters do their part to ensure the results. Archery hunters do it now, we pass buck after buck waiting for a quality animal. It's nothing new to me and I'm seeing the results. I can't believe all the flack around this AR, it's nothing new. It's not something Alt pulled out of a hat. What do we think Illinios, Texas and most big buck states have been doing all along. I bet those states new 12 year old hunters don't have to shoot spikes and forkhorns cause that big 8 or better is traveling the same circle. I am leary of some of the downfall to quality bucks in a state, like land leases but who can blame the landowners. If you needed the money would you pass up the offers...that's a catch 22 for most. Putting aside a few youngsters that might not get a buck the first year out, they stand a greater chance the next year and even more the year following at an exceptional animal and all new hunters from that day forth will too. This is only going to effect the first year 12 year olds, one more year won't hurt anyone....cut their teeth on a mature doe. I know I did.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

i've been following this discussion for a while and i really can't agree with you on this bowyer fella... i think it's rather insulting that you call hunters who question a regulation as irresponsible- is it really responsible that hunters are forced not to shoot a buck for the freezer, because it has a small rack?? has penn's deer health quality really diminished because of liberalized shooting of bucks?? another thing- illinois doesn't practice qdm and texas is an exception to the rule- most public land down there doesn't produce premier whitetails like you think they may...

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Rob, you've got some good points. Had a talk with my 12 year old and he's happy to wait for a a legal rack. I do support AR's and have all along I was just taken back a bit when Alt more or less promised not to restrict the kids at all. I realize he doesn't make the final decision though. The bottom line is, if my kid is ok with it, I probably overreacted.

Yote Runner, I've hunted Illinois for 5 years and they do practice GDM. The unique thing is that they do it voluntarily out there and it has worked well.

Finally, Lochorns, you have ranted rabidly against AR for weeks. Now it's a good idea?
I don't think you really believe in anything except starting fires among hunters and fanning the flames. Something PETA and Greenpeace must really love.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Kids get enough breaks as it is. They need to learn the real world doesn't hand them breaks forever. They have to learn to adapt and have self control just like everyone else.
And like I think it was Jason said- ITS ONLY GOING TO BE ROUGH ONE YEAR. After that many bucks are let through, there will be MANY more that qualify than don't. You people act as though the same distribution of bucks will exist after AR as do now.
And a final thing, I don't think AR will produce this huge giant population of monster bucks that will make other states drool. It will just add a better distribution of really nice bucks around the state.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

BT, I can and do understand what you're saying about the kids. I just think about it differently than you.

I agree that we need to get more youth invovled, but I don't think giving them something for nothing is the way to do it.

I don't recall Alt saying the kids get a break, but I'm not going to dispute it. I honestly don't know.

I DO UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM ON THIS, but I don't have to agree with you.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Jason, He did say specifically that kids would be excluded in the meetings I attended.
You are absolutely right about not having to agree with me and I apologize if I implied anything different. The biggest mistake I made here is posting my objections before getting the perspective from a 12 year old. He's fine with the new regs! Hopefully, other kids will be ok with it too and you are very correct that It'll only be 1 year before things catch up. If the kid is ok with it, I sure as heck am ok with it.

As for you Terry, I'm glad you funally admitted that you really don't care about these issues. I also have to point out yet again that you didn't read or didn't comprehend my post. What I said was that there is enough time in the fall to expand ALL opportunities for ALL hunters no matter what weapon they choose. You continue to insist that one group must compromise part of their season to satisfy some mythical silent majority. Many reasonable ideas have been posted on these boards but you continue to change your story just to disagree with them and keep the fires a raging. I truly believe that if everyone on this board suddenly decided that you were SAKU (Source of All Knowledge in the Universe) you would sign on under yet another name and your next post would start with "Yeah but....".

Edited by - BTBOWHUNTER on 01/17/2002 10:07:45

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Well, being of PA origin I feel that I can comment here.

If this works out well you all will have some nice as heck bucks in a few years. My only concern would be the "Shoot First Count Later" slobs. If it doesn't add up to the standard, it lays...

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Your constitutional question was ridiculous. ALthough it could be argued that a seperate license (tripled recently) ought to entitle those who paid for it to a seperate season.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Arguing the constitution with you would be ridiculous. IF you've ever even seen it your history here shows that you would merely take part of it out of context to attempt to make your point of the moment. Since it makes no specific reference to hunting of any kind, what's your point?

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Lochorns, why aren't these new regs applicable to your private land. Are you saying you set your own rules and regulations. I'd turn you in in a minute.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Welcome aboard 257!!!

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Someone beat me to my question! I was about to ask if one of our participants on this board was implying that game laws did not apply to private land. Correct me if I am mistaken, I am, afterall, a right wing, ultra-conservative. I am not a life member of the UBP, though.
BT, how much does that cost? Could you get me an application?

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

BC,
Life membership to the UBP is $250. I got apps! I'll check into the lifetime dues for the vast right wing conspiracy!

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

250.00.....HMMMM, I could get a new crossgun for that much! What to do?:)

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

You don't own the deer, that's how the PGC can enforce things on private property.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Yes it is true they are undermanned and really can't even enforce things on public land let alone private. Do what you want, I just feel it ain't right to boast about it.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Obviously Yote Runner totally missed the point and put incorrect words in my mouth. I'm not calling those who question a regulation as irrespondsible, I question several, I simply said if that if respondible hunters due their part, the success of an AR program will yield promising results. Irrespondsible hunters will shoot first, look at the rack second under an AR enviroment. Is that more clear yote runner.?...under no AR enviroment, any buck is legal and it's not irrespondisble to shoot other wise, however, new reg's, new respondsibilities...I hope that clearifies things.....

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

bowyer: sure, you clarified yourself... but it seemed misleading when you argued:
"Archery hunters do it now, we pass buck after buck waiting for a quality animal." i interpreted it that folks like yourself were more responsible by following such a tactic. sorry for the mix-up, however, i must add- that of course, most archers follow this style- it's the best time to harvest "your" buck from the summer and no (or few) deer would be substituted. rifle season is an entirely different management tool- (it's the time for slaughter) it would be very difficult to expect rifle hunters to count points as it passes thru the shooting lane- most folks look for bone and it's down, no second chances. not arguing- just commenting.
by the way bt- i doubt you have taken a hunter survey on illinois deer hunters and their feelings towards qdm... many hunters practice qdm across the u.s.- that's not "unique". what is "unique"- is mandating such regulations statewide- which has only been implemented (to my knowledge) in arkansas.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Yote runner
No I didnt conduct a survey anmd I only have experience with two Illinois counties Pike and Adams. The QDM practiced there is mostly imposed by the landowners but it is pretty much imposed most by all of them. The point is that it's widely accepted because hunters realize the value of the practice. Something that I'm certain will happen rather quickly here as well.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

QDM practices are only valuable, if you have your own private land to hunt. A hunter who has only public land to hunt might not put value in someone else deciding what is fair game on PUBLIC land. And if he understands that the trophy mentality over Pa also requires that the herd be cut in half further lessening his chances for even seeing a buck, he might not value QDM at all.

Time will tell.

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

you ever wonder why Alt keeps hauling that same rack around of his hand picked 3 yr old 8 pt. he's had the same rack at 3 different meetings I went to. When asked if that was a typical 3 yr old from good habitat he readily says yes it is. when asked why then do not all 3 yr olds of good habitat grow such racks he says genetics is the reason. Now I'm an old but not dumb...how does he expect to get those same genetics throughout the state? When asked about that at a meeting he had no answer. BUT at the very next meeting he starteds off by stateing how this is the way all 3 yr old bucks will look statewide under his program..............I still say a pony and cart show!!!

RE: I'm Thick ,Need better Eplanation on a legal buc
 

Missed again
You're right that QDM only works on private ground. The reason till now? Because that was the only place where one could get every hunter to follow the rules. Once it's the law it will work on public land too. BTW the only numbers that need to be cut in half are the doe numbers in certain areas.

Edited by - btbowhunter on 01/23/2002 20:28:35

Edited by - btbowhunter on 01/24/2002 06:20:16