FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
03-13-2007, 02:41 PM
#41
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
Dan,I don't think anyone is saying(including the PGC)thatit would be impossible for them to be in Pa.I think we all agree that it isn't that far-fetched that someone could have released a pet that they couldn't handle or that some people may even intentionally let them go.There's certainly enough wacko's out there.I also don't think that anyone is saying it's impossible to have one migrate into Pa.I'd say that's a long shot and an even longer shot that they'd happen on to a mate but definately not impossible.
Most just want to see some credible evidence instead of a blurry picture or an urbanlegend that no one can ever prove.There's been plenty of sightings lately but it seems to me that indisputable proof should have been easy to find with all the snow we have.I would never say never but I still want to see some valid proof.
Most just want to see some credible evidence instead of a blurry picture or an urbanlegend that no one can ever prove.There's been plenty of sightings lately but it seems to me that indisputable proof should have been easy to find with all the snow we have.I would never say never but I still want to see some valid proof.
03-13-2007, 03:01 PM
#42
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 196
RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
Dan, the eastern cougar has been thought to be extinct for a long, long time.
Cougar behavior is pretty well documented as to migration, territorial areas and loyalty to those territories and such. Of course, some migration takes place in search of food or because of disputes. I’m not well enough versed, without my books handy to do a synopsis on it, but suffice to say, “hard evidence” of “wild” cougars is the determining factor for saying they do exist in a particular area.
The thing that many folks are misinformed about is the thought that cougars are these ghosts of the forests and somehow leave no sign when in fact they leave copious amounts of identification sign. Cougar kills are very identifiable as are tracks, scat, scratching trees, den sites and paw prints.
Also, in South Dakota, 7 road-kill cougars were picked up in the Black Hills in a period of 3 months. The entire population of the Black Hills is estimated to only be around 200 cougars. So, the idea that they never show themselves and are so elusive that they cannot be documented to exist, just is not truth.
Yes, pets have been released and recaptured or killed. All cases that I know of to date have been domestic releases.
The ignorance is in accepting something without reasonable evidence to make it acceptable.
I haven’t seen anyone on here say – they absolutely do not exist. Most of us react to sensationalism that is borne out of emotion and sometimes someone just wanting attention for having “sighted” something rare and special.
Cougar behavior is pretty well documented as to migration, territorial areas and loyalty to those territories and such. Of course, some migration takes place in search of food or because of disputes. I’m not well enough versed, without my books handy to do a synopsis on it, but suffice to say, “hard evidence” of “wild” cougars is the determining factor for saying they do exist in a particular area.
The thing that many folks are misinformed about is the thought that cougars are these ghosts of the forests and somehow leave no sign when in fact they leave copious amounts of identification sign. Cougar kills are very identifiable as are tracks, scat, scratching trees, den sites and paw prints.
Also, in South Dakota, 7 road-kill cougars were picked up in the Black Hills in a period of 3 months. The entire population of the Black Hills is estimated to only be around 200 cougars. So, the idea that they never show themselves and are so elusive that they cannot be documented to exist, just is not truth.
Yes, pets have been released and recaptured or killed. All cases that I know of to date have been domestic releases.
”How does anyone that never seen one say for sure they do not excist here? That isvery ignorant thinking.”
I haven’t seen anyone on here say – they absolutely do not exist. Most of us react to sensationalism that is borne out of emotion and sometimes someone just wanting attention for having “sighted” something rare and special.
03-13-2007, 03:05 PM
#43
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 12,564
RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
I can't speak for trappers Phil and I'm not sure what you mean in changing the way we hunt. I don't know why anyone would change anything even if the extinct cat was found to not really be extinct.
Also up here on a section of Route # 6 one has been said to have been seen. The follow up has been stated to have found a female with 3 cubs with her. Are they from released cats? or are they the real thing? They are in fact believed to be the real thing. There is long stretches of roads with out much in the line of human activity and the possibility of them being real is questionable. But, one cat with 3 cubs says there must be another one someplace relatively close by. I hope if they are real no one really finds out if it means more legal issues for the state and all the sportsmen that enjoy it. So why can't my question be answered?
03-13-2007, 05:14 PM
#44
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
ORIGINAL: Cougardaville
NorthPa......reading this board whenI can, I have trouble determining when you are being sarcastic and when you are being sarcastic! People like to ask questions and askfor the links to further information. No matter how it is delivered you and "others" have a way of shuttingthem down. You like to embarrass people and ridicule every chance you allget. What pleasure do you get out of this?It seems you, BTBowhunter and DougE. have similar opinions. That is fine,every one is entitled to their opinion, but you also seem to think that your opinions are the only right ones! No one is attacking the PGC in this thread, no one is talking about stocking and all the rest of the stories that have been beat to death, but you insist on brining up the same garbage over and over no matter what the thread contentis about. Are you all game officers? Do you work for PGC? The defensiveness is loud and clear!
[/align]I am certain if I were to post a picture of a mountain lion or a track......the first thing you would all say is the picture was taken in Idaho,Washington, Montana whereverand is still no proof. So why ask for pictures or this type of proof? A dead body of a mountain lion, killed by a car, trapped or from a bullet in the state of Pa .would be proof of the mountain only if you were present. Therefore why would any body in their right minds share that information on this site.
[/align]Maybe if you guys would lighten up a bit, some would share information more freely.
[/align]I personally believe all the mountain lions that are seen in the East have been released or escaped. I don't know who has done this, but what matters is you have a large predator that once depended on a human to survive. Then this animal is dumped for what ever reason into the wild to fend for itself. Some make it and do well others are not having it so easy, these are the ones that people are seeing. These cats do not have the totally wild instincts to hide and be secretive, they are looking for a easy meal with no FEAR of humans. That should cause concern and alarm! Any wild animal imprinted on humans is much more dangerous than one that is of the wild. Imprinting is irreversible, so where does it leave this large meat eater that may not have good hunting and survival skills? It leaves them in trouble! They are hungry and showing themselves.
[/align]I think it is a waste of time and money on the FEDS part to be searching the Eastern states for Eastern cougars that we know are extinct. I think this is the cause and effect of the pro cougar people forcing government agencies to do the study. They still have high hopes a decade later that this animal exist. If they don't do the study, more money than the study will be spentwill be spent in lawsuits.
[/align]PGC and DEC along with every other Eastern agent have claimed over and over these are escapes and releases.......My opinion that's what I believe they are also. My simple reasoning is the way this cat acts. Compare the action of these cats to the totally wild ones in the west where they are known and populated.
[/align]The Wild cats out west are the "Ghost cats".The cats here is the East are a product of a western cat, with an Eastern attitude.....not wild!!
[/align]
[/align][/align]Cougardaville
[/align]
ORIGINAL: NorthPA
Thanks Cougardaville, you keep helping out the rational side.
From that link:
Thanks Cougardaville, you keep helping out the rational side.
From that link:
"The lack of claw marks on the back and shoulders could mean the cat is a declawed animal that escaped or was released from captivity."
[/align]I am certain if I were to post a picture of a mountain lion or a track......the first thing you would all say is the picture was taken in Idaho,Washington, Montana whereverand is still no proof. So why ask for pictures or this type of proof? A dead body of a mountain lion, killed by a car, trapped or from a bullet in the state of Pa .would be proof of the mountain only if you were present. Therefore why would any body in their right minds share that information on this site.
[/align]Maybe if you guys would lighten up a bit, some would share information more freely.
[/align]I personally believe all the mountain lions that are seen in the East have been released or escaped. I don't know who has done this, but what matters is you have a large predator that once depended on a human to survive. Then this animal is dumped for what ever reason into the wild to fend for itself. Some make it and do well others are not having it so easy, these are the ones that people are seeing. These cats do not have the totally wild instincts to hide and be secretive, they are looking for a easy meal with no FEAR of humans. That should cause concern and alarm! Any wild animal imprinted on humans is much more dangerous than one that is of the wild. Imprinting is irreversible, so where does it leave this large meat eater that may not have good hunting and survival skills? It leaves them in trouble! They are hungry and showing themselves.
[/align]I think it is a waste of time and money on the FEDS part to be searching the Eastern states for Eastern cougars that we know are extinct. I think this is the cause and effect of the pro cougar people forcing government agencies to do the study. They still have high hopes a decade later that this animal exist. If they don't do the study, more money than the study will be spentwill be spent in lawsuits.
[/align]PGC and DEC along with every other Eastern agent have claimed over and over these are escapes and releases.......My opinion that's what I believe they are also. My simple reasoning is the way this cat acts. Compare the action of these cats to the totally wild ones in the west where they are known and populated.
[/align]The Wild cats out west are the "Ghost cats".The cats here is the East are a product of a western cat, with an Eastern attitude.....not wild!!
[/align]
[/align][/align]Cougardaville
[/align]
03-13-2007, 05:33 PM
#45
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
ORIGINAL: NorthPA
Cougardaville, Yes, much of what I post in this topic is said tongue in cheek or --- with sarcasm. I apologize if you thought “all” of my comments were aimed at you – they were not. I’m sure if you read back over this discussion you will find several posts that imply conspiracies. The things I pointedly mentioned; trailer loads of cougars and such, “have” been alleged or outright claimed to be true.
You are correct, my idea of proof is a responsible agency or wildlife professional stating that; we have determined this particular sighting is credible and that it is a mountain lion. All the “reported sightings” in the world are nothing more than someone saying they saw something.
You say, “No one is attacking the PGC in this thread,” yet you go on to ask, “Are you all game officers? Do you work for PGC? The defensiveness is loud and clear! That may not be an “attack” but it sure shows where your mind is.
Nope, my opinion is not the only one, it is open to change – with sustainable proof.
Refer to the above --- anybody can post a picture, that does not make it valid nor does it make it invalid. It simply is nothing without confirmation.
I didn’t ask for pictures.
Seems we are on exactly the same page. I have been saying that all along and I welcome your acknowledging the same opinion.
Cougardaville, Yes, much of what I post in this topic is said tongue in cheek or --- with sarcasm. I apologize if you thought “all” of my comments were aimed at you – they were not. I’m sure if you read back over this discussion you will find several posts that imply conspiracies. The things I pointedly mentioned; trailer loads of cougars and such, “have” been alleged or outright claimed to be true.
You are correct, my idea of proof is a responsible agency or wildlife professional stating that; we have determined this particular sighting is credible and that it is a mountain lion. All the “reported sightings” in the world are nothing more than someone saying they saw something.
You say, “No one is attacking the PGC in this thread,” yet you go on to ask, “Are you all game officers? Do you work for PGC? The defensiveness is loud and clear! That may not be an “attack” but it sure shows where your mind is.
Nope, my opinion is not the only one, it is open to change – with sustainable proof.
“I am certain if I were to post a picture of a mountain lion or a track......the first thing you would all say is the picture was taken in Idaho,Washington, Montana whereverand is still no proof.”
“So why ask for pictures or this type of proof? “
“I personally believe all the mountain lions that are seen in the East have been released or escaped.”
north, you are not correct,WCO have been notified to meet and take tracks and they refused to come out YEARS AGO..
i know, i called..you know what the response was?here is WCO from clearfields answer to me,years ago..SPROUL, I DONT BELIEVE A COUGAR EXISTS AND GROUND IS TOO HARD TO TAKE TRACKS..
now, i am not bashing the WCO,heck if i was like you and your other non-believers,i would most likely not be interested..
if that WCO would have met with me,we would have had a COUGAR track,trust me on that..
now, i understand up until now that most WCO are coming out to investigate,yes, heat is on..
yet, PGC says to forward our sighting to the FEDS NOW..
most of us dont like to betold we dont know what we saw..we are being told we dont know how to hunt, dont get off road,we only walk 100 yards into woods,we are stupid hunters deer are wayback dumbies,wannabees see deer,ole sproul and other hunters see very few..we see coyotes killing deer, wanabees say its bear..
now you know why there is so much hate,then you guys team up and come after everyone that saw a cougar..
could it be you folks are MAD that you never saw one,hmmmmmmmm..
trust ole sproul, when you see one it will drop your mouth WIDE OPEN when it is as close to me as one i saw..
yes, 1 i saw had a 2 ft tail!!
03-14-2007, 12:59 AM
#47
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: manassas va USA
Posts: 614
RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
I wonder what WCO R.S.Bodenhorn knows of this topic? I for one have family in and around the Clinton co. area who say that a cat deffinately exists??? i have not seen it,,nor do i want to! I am not going to be arrogant enough to say that there is no way that a mt. lion exists in Pa. I hope they stay extinct due to a squimish feeling that comes over me thinking that a cat that could very well kill me may be watching me walk in to my treestand at 4:30 opening morning. This i do know,,,the people that say a cat exists are very shroud folks who want nothing from no one,,,they dont want to be the one to discover the undiscovered and i can promise ya this,,if thosesame folks happen to see the "cat" whilein thepresense of a firearm,,,they wont be rushing out to the lock haven express or emailing their fed agents to show "proof"
03-14-2007, 03:04 AM
#48
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 12,564
RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
This i do know,,,the people that say a cat exists are very shroud folks who want nothing from no one,,,they dont want to be the one to discover the undiscovered and i can promise ya this,,if thosesame folks happen to see the "cat" whilein thepresense of a firearm,,,they wont be rushing out to the lock haven express or emailing their fed agents to show "proof"
Cougardaville will this Eastern Cougar if discovered to be in existent altar the way folks hunt and trap in that state? Yes or NO?
03-14-2007, 03:35 AM
#49
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 196
RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
Sproul, you gotta be kidding!
I've hunted and seen more species of wild game in more states, provinces and foreign countries than you'll ever see.
Forget the "mad that you never saw one" stuff.
I can’t speak for each and every WCO and neither can you. I spoke of the “PGC” past and present agency policy on this. If there are reasonable reports and manpower is available they “do” check it out.
In your case, I don’t know what your standing with the local WCO is.
I am not being smart here, but just judging from some of your posts here --- I most likely would not respond either.
My reason for saying that is just look how you distorted my position as a “non-believer.” All most of us are saying is that we don’t jump on the bandwagon based on emotion. We ask for reliable data and evidence -- that's all.
Look at that entire paragraph where you got off topic and exaggerated, distorted and misquoted the PGC:
You took survey and study reports and exaggerated them way out of proportion. None of that is accurate as you posted it and you think a WCO is going to give you credibility! Why would he????
Again, this was not the PGC initiating this program. It is the “feds” requesting data.
I've hunted and seen more species of wild game in more states, provinces and foreign countries than you'll ever see.
Forget the "mad that you never saw one" stuff.
I can’t speak for each and every WCO and neither can you. I spoke of the “PGC” past and present agency policy on this. If there are reasonable reports and manpower is available they “do” check it out.
In your case, I don’t know what your standing with the local WCO is.
I am not being smart here, but just judging from some of your posts here --- I most likely would not respond either.
My reason for saying that is just look how you distorted my position as a “non-believer.” All most of us are saying is that we don’t jump on the bandwagon based on emotion. We ask for reliable data and evidence -- that's all.
Look at that entire paragraph where you got off topic and exaggerated, distorted and misquoted the PGC:
“told we dont know what we saw..we are being told we dont know how to hunt, dont get off road,we only walk 100 yards into woods,we are stupid hunters deer are wayback dumbies,wannabees see deer,ole sproul and other hunters see very few..we see coyotes killing deer, wanabees say its bear.. “
“yet, PGC says to forward our sighting to the FEDS NOW.. “
03-14-2007, 06:51 AM
#50
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location:
Posts: 82
RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
You are asking a question on what the Feds will do If there really are Eastern cougars. I don't think anybody but the Feds know, if They even do.
The Animal Rights groups want to end trapping ASAP so if they are after you in Maine for trapping Lynx by accident, they have their toe in the door to completely ban trapping. That is their goal and they are using the Lynx for a front.
All Hunters need to band together to keep any legal means of taking game legal. Trapping is a very useful means of controling predators and also has been used to live trap otters for relocation. They used LEGHOLD ones to trap the otters too!
The Animal Rights groups want to end trapping ASAP so if they are after you in Maine for trapping Lynx by accident, they have their toe in the door to completely ban trapping. That is their goal and they are using the Lynx for a front.
All Hunters need to band together to keep any legal means of taking game legal. Trapping is a very useful means of controling predators and also has been used to live trap otters for relocation. They used LEGHOLD ones to trap the otters too!