Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

We own 164 acres. How do PGC laws apply to land owners? I have heard people say it was illegal to hunt animals on their property unless they follow the laws to a T. Others said the property owners rights over rides most of the laws placed by the PGC. For instance. If someone wants to hunt animals with a semi auto rifle it is the land owners choice on his property to do so. The same is with camoflage clothing. it is the land owners choice. Just wanted some input on this to see how others feel about land owners rights and some of the PGC laws. Just thought I would stir the pot up some. This is a debate over what is the law of the land.(no illegal deer being shot or untagged persons please on this debate) Just genral laws on firearms, clothing , fences, baits,feeders, used by land owners and not leased land renters.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

How do PGC laws apply to land owners?

Near's I can tell, all PGC regs apply, regardless of how much landyou own or anything else one wished to bring up about property rights vs game laws.

Only exceptions might be for regulated shooting/hunting grounds or pay-to-hunt operations and even they have certain regs that need to be adhered to.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

The possession of a gun on ones own property does not constitute hunting so hunting either before or after hours is a mute point.
Hunting over bait would be considered attempting to illegally harvest an animal no matter who's land you were on.
The semi auto rifle would depend on how good your lawyer really is. patrolling by walking boundary line could be explained in a court of law , where as sitting in a tree stand I would consider attempting to take game in an illegal way.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Then why waiste money on property if you got no control of what you do on it? This is what I am talking about. If Iam not allowed todecide about what I can do on my own property then what good is it? Pay 1.5 mil just to post it and say you can't hunt here. Sounds kinda foolish don't it? If I invest this much money and own something. It should give me the right to decide what I want to do and use on it. It's posted so how is it that my semi or my camo during season goanna affect anyone else but me. You have no right on my posted property. It's mine. Why do I have to follow these laws if it's mine. Why is it illegal to use a semi or wear camo during deer season on posted private property? There is no good reason for these laws to apply to land owners.I am a big boy and don't need to have someone to tell me what to do on my property. Where does the land owners rights begin over PGC laws.How many own land and think that all laws should apply to them also on their property? If I want I can drive my truck on our property at 100mph in front of a police officer and there is nothing he can do about it. But yet if I was on the highway, I would get chased and pulled over.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Good point geroge, you should sign it over to me.
Owning property does not give anyone "extra" constitutional rights or the right to be above the law.

Another good point -- you are comparing onions and hootchiemajiggers.
Your vehicle is licensed for "highway use."
Your hunting license is for "any" hunting --- not hunting "off" off of your property.

This post looks identical to one on another board a year or so ago. I'm thinking that was CrazyHorse or ManySpurs (Highcountry), what posted it.
?????????????

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

But why is it not allowed for land owners to huntwith Semis and camo? How does this affect the deer herds or other hunters? What is the purpose of these laws to private land owners?

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Owning property gives me constitutional rights.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Being a PGC does not give "extra" constitutional rights or the right to be above the law.



PGC claims they have the right to search, tresspass violate your constitutional rights without reason or a warrant.


Let's not be hypocritical here now.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

because even though you may own the land you don't own the animals. SO you have to follow the rules for killing those animals like everyone else.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Don't you think that is being hypocritacle to? Come on. They don't have to obey the constitution but we have to obey their laws on our property. Double standard and very hypocrit. This isn't about hunting without tags or poaching. This was about should we have to use the weapons they say and have to wear the colors they say on our own property. Can we not chose different. What harm does it do?

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

I find it very odd that the PGC has the right to search,tresspass etc....without reason or warrant.Is that what the code states??

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

George, you left out a word. Maybe you didn't notice. "extra."

That thing about the PGC has been slashed, sliced, diced and stewed so many times and proven that the Gestapo accusations are usually made totally out of context.

I'm not that up on the wording and regulations concerning serach and seizure but no one to date, in thesedebates,has shown any proof of such alledged freedoms and abuses of search and seizure.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Yes it does AJ. I have read it before.
But this was about a debate on choice of weapons,or clothing and other small laws that prohibit land owners from use. If it causes no problem to any other hunter, Then why is this to be enforced on to land owners also.
We should have some priviledges just for owning our property. We are hunting on our property and there for, not hunting public. Which means more wildlife for those that hunt public properties. But, How many complain about land owners hunting public property when they have their own land. We should have more freedom of choice on our own land.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

I have seen it stated by those who would know, that Wildlife Conservation Officers are bound by the same constitutionalrestrictions as all other law enforcement officers are, when it comes to probable cause, searches,etc. The myth has existed for years here, that somehow WCOs have some sort of special powers beyond those of thepolice.

One point of contention is that WCOs can stop you while afield, to check for properlicense, equipment and daily bag limit infractions, while the police are not supposed to be able to detain anyone without good reason (probable cause).

No idea why someone would think they wouldn't have to abide by game regs just because it's their property? We ain't allowed to do anything else on our own property, that's against thelaw.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

I think the "trepass" thing concerns some folks. Don't quote me on this but I believe PGC can go onto private, even posted, property if they merely suspect a violation. It could even be that a search warrant is not needed to investigate probable cause.
Like I said, I don't know the specifics but some have rather convincingly recounted such things.
It doesn't take much to imagine a private landowner could post his land, bait game, take game out of season, exceed bag limits and if law enforcement personnel were prevented form going on his land, he'd never get prosecuted. Unless, of course, somoeone ratted him or he bragged etc.
Kind of like a state cop. They don't need to stay out of your driveway if they are following up on a report or even have questions. If they pull you over, ore even stop while you are parked, I think they they can search your car without a warrant on probable cause.
Send in the legal beagles.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

[quote]The same is with camoflage clothing. it is the land owners choice.[quote]

Why should land owners be exempt from Hunter Safety laws.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Thats why I didn't put it in.There is no extra rights for anyone to be above the law.

But the PGC thinks they have the extra rights above the constitution.
And if you look thru the web, You can see where many have violated the constitution. Heres a question for you?
Do you believe that PGC has the right to tresspass upon someones property that is posted or to search someones vehicle without a warrant without cause. What would you do if someone refused to let you proceed to do so without a warrant?

But I still want to stay on topic here and address this also.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: AJ52

[quote]The same is with camoflage clothing. it is the land owners choice. It's just the choice of the land owner. What safety concern if your land is posted and no one else hunts it? Or if your in a stand, Remove your colors. I don't see a safety issue there. It's all about choice AJ and to decide for ones self.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

To many cases been thrown out because of illegal searches.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

You made a claim in affect that states the PGC may enter your land without probable cause.That makes no sense.Your Topic is "Property owners and PGC laws collide".Show us the collision by posting the code that conflits with your perception of State Regs.

What does make sense if hunting on a WMA you can be stopped while walking,driving etc....On private property there must be probable cause to enter. Very similar laws apply to fishing and being stopped by any number of law enforcement agencys,form F&W,marine police,Coast Gaurd etc....
If you have your own private pond/lake you are still subject to some state regs.

Now - if your saying the PGC has all these rights to enter your property you need to post the reg/code.I'm puzzled as to how PA/PGC could be violating or negating all these rights under the U.S. constitution.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

All you are doing is being argumentative. If you don't follow the rules you are poaching!!!! Poaching doesn't just mean not tagging or shooting more than you are allowed. You use a gun in archery season....POACHING!

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Sec. 901. Powers and duties of enforcement officers.
(a) Powers. - Any officer whose duty it is to enforce this title or any officer investigating any alleged violation of this title shall have the power and duty to:
[ul](1) Enforce all laws of this Commonwealth relating to game or wildlife and arrest any person who has violated any of the provisions of this title while in pursuit of that person immediately following the violation.
(2) Go upon any land or water outside of buildings, posted or otherwise, in the performance of the officer's duty.
(3) Serve subpoenas issued under the provisions of this title.
(4) Carry firearms or other weapons, concealed or otherwise, in the performance of the officer's duties.
(5) Purchase and resell game or wildlife, or any part thereof, for the purpose of securing evidence.
(6) Stop and inspect or search, at any time, any means of transportation within this Commonwealth. Any officer who stops any means of transportation shall be in uniform and present a badge or other means of official identification and state the purpose of the inspection or search.
(7) Inspect and examine or search, at any time or place, any person or means of transportation or its attachment or occupants, or any clothing worn by any person, or any bag, clothing or container when the officer presents official identification and states the purpose of the inspection or search.
(8) Inspect and examine or search, at any time, any camp, tent, cabin, trailer or any means of transportation or its attachment being used when the officer presents official identification to the person in charge and states the purpose of the inspection or search.


[/ul]

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Not at all. I wan't to know why it is wrong for land owners to have to follow these laws. On public land, Yes I see it is a must for safety reason. But do not see how it is a safety factor on ones own property. I enjoyuseing semi auto 22s. But law says I am not permitted to do so. I also enjoy wearing camo and just an orange hat while I move around/ I don't see how these thing affect others on my own property and my rights of choice is violated. Pursuit of happiness is violated if want to keep this on a legal stance. But I was just looking for reasons why this is not allowed? And believe this is a collision between land owners and PGC laws.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Do you think you could get a lawyer to consider your case? I don't. Laws are there for a reason whether you see that reason or not. If you could do whatever you wanted on "Your Own Property" everyone else out ther with private land would expect the same no matter if they had 1 acre or 1000 acres. Why would you not want to wear Orange? You can't keep all tresspassers of your land and you could fall victim to that tresspasser's bullet from your movement about "your propery"

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

good info, george.. i did not know that rule, thanks..

here we go..a homeowner in cameron county had 5 acres of land..a elk was in his yard and eating his apples..he thinks of apples like you would your kids..

he told PGC to get the elk out of his property..they said, put up a fence..

so, he shot elk and was arrested..


then in clinton county,a guy owned 2 acres of land..he grows pumpkins and tomatoes corn..he is retiredr..he shot 5 elk on his property..

he was not arrested as they were eating his crops that he sells..

2 different rules..if that homeowner was selling his apples, he would have gone free..

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

I am sure many lawyers would jump on this case. What's wrong with people wanting the freedom of choice to wear what they want or use a gun of their choice.(as long as it's capable of doing the job). In a tree stand I see no purpose for orange. I like to blend in with mother nature.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Let us know how it works out!


Tell that to the guy who was mistakenly shot for a squirrell. If I can find the story again I'll post it.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Go ahead George, Bailey Hill says just break the law they'll never know.

I can't believe anyone would post something like that. Pathetic!

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

No where in 901 do I see where it remotely implys what you implied the PGC was or is doing to violate your rights as a land owner.

Why should the PA PGC make exceptions for land owners in enforcing existing game laws no matter what they encompass.

The only exceptions in Delaware are for crop damage.The legislature recently passed an expanded version of the previous law.That law was passed after farmers raised hell over crop damage.
That was accomplised thru talking with local reps.
A bill was introduced,revised and later passed.

BTW - It wasn't resolved over the internet.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Did they lock up the idiot - Hope So.

As far as a home owner Going Free for shooting Elk if he grew/sold apples is pure Cow Dung! Geeeeez[:'(]

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

You guys are truley unbelievable. Didn't you attend school and have civics classes?

This has got to be a joke that people who claim to be hunting for so manyyearsdon't even know the basics of functioning in a democracy.

I'm thinking we are dealing with some kids here who articficially age themselves in here in order to get some undeserved credibility.
Why aren't you in school?

I notice the spelling is usually about 7th grade level on some posts but I also do that sometimes when I hurry. Guess yunz are always hurrying.
(yunz is purposely mispelled)

This entire topic of wanting special privledges for being a landowner is not democracy. Ya need to look into moving to some European states that haven't switched to democracy yet. Maybe ya could become a Czar.

Hahaha -- kids, ain't they something?

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Another Great Mentality and great example for young hunters to follow.

If nobody is looking its OK [X(]

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Why would a guy shoot elk that ate his apples if he thinks of the apples as "his kids?"

If an elk ate my kid, I sure wouldn't kill him. I'd have the elk tranquilized and do a "c" section to remove my kid in one piece.
Either that or feed him a basket full of Exlax........ I'm thinking some guys are having an Exlax party today![:'(]

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

aj52,first, he was not IDIOT..how would you like to be 85 years old, a have nice yard, 2apple trees that you planted and have elk come into your yard and break limbs off and eat tree and apples..

then call PGC and they will not remove the elk..how would you deal with that on YOUR PROPERTY?

now on to other, the other one sells apples on retirement..HE shot 5 elk..he told the PGC to remove the elk, they did not, so he shot them..

he was not arrested and let go because he sold his apples etc..ALL TRUE STORYS THAT HAPPENEDAND I KNOW BOTH PEOPLE..

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Hey Bailey,George, Sproul,
The laws that the PGC officers enforceare laws passed by the PA. STATE LEGISLATURE. They are no different than the State Trooper that arrests you for speeding.
These officers are given duties to preform by Pa. and enforce the laws of this state as any other state. You will find ,if you care to look, that the game laws are similar from state to state. Did you know that the State Police have the duty to also enforce game laws. Why? Because they are a state law , not a PGC law.
The three ofyou are trying to bash the PGC again, you're wasting your time. You'll get nowhere here.
If you want to break the game laws ,let me know ,I'll be glad to turn u in.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

The man was a fool and a pain in the arse Sproulman and you know it. He tried to repeatedly make fools out of the PGC. They made every attempt (repeatedly) to help him with the situation but he refused help.
He had all sorts of offers, even from outside the PGC of help for fencing and deterrents.
Why don't you try a little honesty. Save that "me sproulman me no lie" crap.


He had him a fan club and it ended up costing him to lose the court battle.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Private property doesnt give one the right to be above the law.

You cant sell or grow illegal grugs on your own private property

You cant commit crimes of murder, rape assault etc just because you're on your own private property

The game laws should be regarded no differenly. The wildlife doesn't belong to the property owner

Just as you cant shoot another human being who is not threatening your life for stealing from your property, you cant shoot an elk or any other animal for stealing your apples although the game laws have provisions intended for farmers who make their living from the crops on their land.


All that being said, there is that one section of 901a that is troubling:

I am not real comfortable with the wording on this one.Can a WCOsearch my camp, tent, trailer, cabin without a warrant or probable cause? This section seems to say so. That would most definitely be power that most even the police dont have. Maybe RSB or someone who is more familiar with the game code can clarify why this doesn't mean just that. It sure reads that way to me. At best, this section is poorly worded.

I would think that this particular section wouldnt survive a constutional challenge but how many individuals have the money and time resources to challenge a law or section thereof thats so poorly worded.

In a perfect world, one who has done nothing wrong should have no reason for concern with a WCO searching anywhere. But our bill of rights exists solely because it's not a perfect world and because law enforcement is done by human beings and not all of them are 100% perfect at playing by the rules either.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Maybe you needthe civics refresher course! We DON"T LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY we live in a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and one of the most important differences is that a lawmay not standjust because the majority wants it.The founders hated the idea of democracy.They knew that majority rulewould be just as tryanical as a tryrant king. They therefore set up a system to protect us from peple who think like you.

In our country, laws enacted by a legislature may be challenged at any time and if found unconstitutional by the judiciary will be thrown out. It happens all the time and this isthe basic question of this thread. Are some of the laws like requiring a landowner to wear certain colors while hunting on their own land legal or not? That, my friend, is a very valid question in our DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC. In my opinion it's not only the right of a citizen to question laws but their duty. Maybe it's you who should think about moving to a European state where the state makes whatever law they choose and a citizen has no right and may even be jailed for questioning it.

Do land owners have special privelges? In this country, absolutely they do and those rights/privilegesare gaurenteed by the constitution and can not be legally trampled even if the majority of the people wantthem to be.

Good thread.. good questions... thanks georgepoker!

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

Don't think so Sylvan -- you're playing pretty loose with definitions of governing.
You are correct that anyone can "ask" or "challenge" any law, including questioning the constitution. But the basic premise is the rule of the majority to protect the rights of the minority and of all citizens.
(Clue --- elections are determined by majority vote)

Laws are designed to be fair and applied to all without discrimmination.
Try "equality" on for size.

George's question is valid to ask -- no contest there. Equally valid is my opinion that he wants "preferred" treatment based on what ---he is a landowner?
I own a truck, should I be exempt from driving laws? I even pay road taxes, therefore I have more rights than someone who uses public transportation!!!!

If you and Georege want to be above the law, I suggest (if you don't want to move to a place that rewards landowners more so than the peasants), you start a petition, schmooze your local legislator and go for it.
Good luck commrade.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

- You said we live in a democracy.You are simply wrong, we don't. Our form of government is a democratic republic. Any HS civics student knows that and knows the difference.

- You said "...the basic premise is the rule of the majority to protect the rights of the minority and of all citizens". That's wrong too. Fact is we live by rule of law, not rule of the majority. We are protected by constitutional law FROM the whim of the majority not by it. That's how the founders designed it.

- We elect or legislatures to make laws but they can not make any law they choose, regardless of what the majority wants. The laws they enact must be legal under the constitution or they will be struck downwhen challenged.


"Good luck commrade." ME? LOL, you are the one touting ideascontrary to the founding principles of this country.

RE: Property owners and PGC laws collide
 

I see the know it all has arrived;)