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PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
From the Pitsburgh Tribune Review:
By Bob Frye TRIBUNE-REVIEW OUTDOORS EDITOR Sunday, January 21, 2007 Sportsmen are worried that some people within the Pennsylvania Game Commission are trying to "undermine" the state's mentored youth hunting program. Last year, state lawmakers approved legislation that said any child, regardless of age, could hunt provided they were accompanied by an adult mentor. Game Commissioners subsequently allowed youngsters to hunt groundhogs, squirrels and spring gobblers. They were initially going to let youngsters hunt antlered deer, too, but delayed that until the fall 2007 season so that agency staff had time to work out the logistics of the program. Now, those same staff people are telling commissioners they need yet more time. When commissioners meet this week, agency staff will recommend that they not let kids hunt bucks.  var zflag_nid="305"; var zflag_cid="284/1"; var zflag_sid="178"; var zflag_width="300"; var zflag_height="250"; var zflag_sz="9";  The feeling is that allowing children who don't have a license -- and therefore no harvest tag -- to kill deer will be problematic. Some believe it will play havoc with the commission's ability to track the deer harvest. Others fear it will lead to law enforcement issues, with mentors shooting small bucks and saying the children took them. "We simply need more time to consider alternatives and the potential benefits and costs to the agency, the resource and the citizens of the Commonwealth," reads an item in the Game Commission's agenda. Agency staff have already had a year to work out those very issues, though, said commissioner Russ Schleiden of Centre County. He said he's not sure if the board will follow the staff's recommendation. There's no doubt how the sportsmen who served on the state's youth mentored hunting committee feel, however. In a letter to commissioners and agency staff, Ron Fretts, the Scottdale man who chaired the committee, said any move to keep kids from hunting deer this fall is "unacceptable." "Many youth who experienced hunting with an adult mentor in 2006 because of the new program are eagerly waiting to pursue the crown jewel of hunting, the white-tailed deer," Fretts wrote. "We stand to seriously disappoint those families who hoped to enjoy time afield this fall." Commission biologists have already said there is no scientific evidence to indicate that that letting children hunt bucks -- as well as turkeys -- this fall will cause any problems, Fretts added. "Sportsmen across the Commonwealth see this type of waffling by (the) PGC as an indication of an agency headed in the wrong direction. Sportsmen that considered the PGC as a partner in efforts to improve hunter recruitment and retention rates will no longer trust (the) PGC if the agency proceeds with plans to gut the mentored youth hunting program," Fretts concluded. [/align] Bob Frye can be reached at [email protected] or (724) 838-5148. Its a shame that when the PGc is under fire for trying to do the right thing with the deer program that they let this opportunity to help promote hunting fall through the cracks. Other states like Missouri have shown us overwhelming proof that the key to getting youth involved in hunting is to tear down some barriers and here is the PGc staff failing to do just that. i dont knowabout you guys but I'm not buying their explanations on this one. Theyve had plenty of time to address their issues. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
Others fear it will lead to law enforcement issues, with mentors shooting small bucks and saying the children took them. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
This isnt to slam you for your opinion but I think maybe the possibility of an adult taking a kid out there, shooting a small buck, and then putting the kids tag on it is pretty low.
Here's why I thinkthat while it might happen, the frequency would be sosmallthatit would be insignificant. My boys are now 17 and 14 so my memories of their introduction todeer hunting are relatively fresh. Taking a 12 year old out in the deer woods requires a lot of patience andway more commitment than it does to hunt for yourself. Their attention span is still relatively short, they inadvertently make noises and movements that spook game. They forget their hunting coat, hat gloves, shells, knife, arrows etc etc etc. They get cold, bored, tired, hungry,and fidgety EARLY AND OFTEN!. Now dont get me wrong, the best moments of my hunting career were being there for each of my sons first deer, first buck, first gut job etc etc etc. Every minute has been worth it My point here is that the kind of jerk that is looking for a shortcut to tagging a deer is not the kind of father willing to show the committment required to take a young hunter outat all let alone take him out at a younger age than 12 when all of the things I just mentioned are likely to be maginfied at a younger age. I'd like to think that a father who takes his kid out at 7 8 9 or whatever age under 12 is showing a commitment to making a sportsman out of that child and we ought to do whatever we can to make that possible. Poachers are poachers because they refuse toplay by the rules and they take the easy way out. taking a kid thats younger than 12 out to deer hunt if that kid isnt interested is NOT the easy way to get a deer, even a small buck. And if the kid is interested I find it hard to imagine that many fathers would deny the kid the chance to shoot so that they could shoot and tag the kids deer instead. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
Yes the possibility exists that some bozo might use the excuse of taking his unlicensed kid out for deer and abuse the system. The same possibility has existed for years, when the kid had a license and the ol' man abused the system by using that kid's tag. Agreed, they had plenty of time to formulate a reporting or tag component to go with a mentored youth deer opportunity for next season.
Judging by the comments offered today by Fretts and several others who worked to gain passage of a mentored youth hunting opportunity, the board will be under considerable pressure to reject staff's opinions and move towards the promisedmentored youthdeer component. The most persuasive argument for it, came from the Governor's youth advisory council, who unanimously voiced their opinion in favor of a mentoredyouth "deer season". |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
Thanks for the update Denny! :D
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RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
This isnt to slam you for your opinion but I think maybe the possibility of an adult taking a kid out there, shooting a small buck, and then putting the kids tag on it is pretty low. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
I'm with trykon, I have no faith in the average PA hunter.
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RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
IMHO the PGC should do away with all youth days and while they're at it do away with the sub AR clause for youth as well. What type of lessons are we teaching our children that the rules are one thing but for them they are bent. Also allowing them to kill sub AR bucks for a few years then after they have it set in their minds that it's ok to do so try to change them into thinking that those very same deer need to be protected for the benefit of the herd?
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RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
In an ever decreasing hunter numbers world, everything possible to entice and recruit youthful hunters should be addressed. In N.J. the hunting license is FREE. Imagine that!
How about this; If a youth shoots a Button Buck the parent is obligated to put his (adult Buck Tag) on the animal. That would sure cut down on the killing of Button Bucks. Every opportunity should be provided to increase the number of youthful hunters in Pennsylvania. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
It is a shame that you have to worry about these 'mentors' not being sportsman and teaching young children these values.
I do think the program is a good one and can't wait to take my son (who will be four in the spring) if the program comes about in the next few years. When he is ready and legally aloud, he will be there. Selloo, I do agree with you that the sub AR restrictions for the youth should be removed. Who ever said you have to get abuck to be successful? I think a doe would/should me just as much. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
I agree everything should be done to increase hunting opportunites in PA. Statistics are dwindling for the age group 12-17. More has to be done.
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RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
ORIGINAL: rybohunter I'm with trykon, I have no faith in the average PA hunter. I'd like to think that they are not in the majority. It's certainly human nature for all of us to remenber the bad before the good. I'd also like to think that the kind of parent who is willing to put forth the effort to mentor an underage kid is probably a cut above average in this state. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
I just think there is a much better way to get a kid out there without leaving a wide open loophole for scumbags.
My views on youth hunting are different than most. I feel they should be able to start young, and get breaks on license fees, but honestly i truly disagree with the special seasons and rules for them. If you can't get a kid interested in the amount of time the seasons already provide, then a couple extra days ain't going to do the trick. It's a bogus "feel good" rule IMO. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
All three of my kids started "hunting" at around age 4 or 5. I would wait for a warm october afternoon, pack a small backpack with munchies and drinks for em and go outfor squirrels. I would only shoot squirrels that they spotted and pointed out to me and of course let them carry thesquirrel around.
By the time my oldest son was nine, he was ready to sit with me all morning on the first day of rifle season and we "hunted" the same way. We did it legally and he didnt shoot before he was 12 and I think back at how nice it would have been if he could have been the primary hunter back then.I just think with most kids attention span at the young ages that we ought to cut them a little slack even on the small bucks. I'll tell you what would make sense though.when a kid gets his first license at whatever age, he gets one or two special buck tags thatare not dated. the kid gets to harvest one or two sub AR bucks and then he/she is huning as an adult. that special tag gets put on the sub AR buckwith the regular tag siginifying it as a "first" or "youth" buck. That does two things. it preserves the purpose of relaxing the AR's for kids but doesnt let it go on for several years if the kid is fortunate enough to have the opportunity many years in a row. It also makes that one or two tags something valuable to the kid and maybe those jackasses that would shoot a kids deer would give it more thought isf the kid only had one or two chances at a small buck. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
The PGC can only do so much to promote hunting.Instilling the desire and interest to hunt is up to the parents.I know one thing for sure.Complaining about how poor the hunting is nowand how great it used to be when it wasn't unusual to see 50+ deer a day isn't the way to instill the desire to hunt.
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RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
That's one postI actually agree with.
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RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
I am with you Bailey, I have four sons I started them like BTB. and they had no problem waiting until they were 12yrs. old to go hunting, three out of my four boys turned out to be avid hunters one just never took a liken to getting cold and walking the hills. Kids can learn just as much about hunting and the woods without a gun as with a gun maybe more.
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RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
BT, do you have a beef with the PGC lately? :D I too feel thatsome of thescum bags out there will take advantage of this. Some guys stoop to a really low level. They'll shoot a sub legal buck, go home and get their daughter, come back and take the deer out of the woods. Some guys will just shoot at any antlered buck and count points as it lays on the ground. If it isn't legal, the do the above scenerio. Now if I could wave a magic wand, I'd create a seperate one or two day season earlier in the fall when the weather is more comfortable for young kids. Only kids under 12 would be permitted to hunt. To hunt this special season would require a special licence and tag, for a very low cost ($5). This would raise a little $$$ for the PGC and prevent some of the bad scenerios we've mentioned. I don't think mentors would mind paying $5 for their young hunter to get an early chance at a buck. The deer would be more relaxed giving the little hunters a better chance. Maybe the scumbag mentors wouldn't be tempted to do the shooting, knowing they'll get a chance later on in the season. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
It easy now to see after reading alot of responses why the PGC might want more time. I'm just saying it's a very touchy subject.
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RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
I don't know if PA is just loaded with knuckleheads or it's the whole country but I caught a few groups driving shooting at anything willing to use a kid to tag the sub-AR buck.It's ashame we even have to worry about this kind of thing.And yes I made reports.
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RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
BT, do you have a beef with the PGC lately? :D |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
Now if I could wave a magic wand, I'd create a seperate one or two day season earlier in the fall when the weather is more comfortable for young kids. Only kids under 12 would be permitted to hunt. To hunt this special season would require a special licence and tag, for a very low cost ($5). This would raise a little $$$ for the PGC and prevent some of the bad scenerios we've mentioned. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
I think the better time would be during the rut of early November. The bucks are on the move.leaves are still nice in most areas,nice sunny afternoons, a pleasant time to reflect as Ihear the roar of a rifle while I'm hunting turkeys.Bringing back to mindmy own early days as a hunter. Sorry, couldn't resist. My apologies. I do like the idea. We already have several youth-only seasons. Why not add one more? |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
I kind of like the idea of having it the Friday and Saturday before rifle opens. :) Sorry, couldn't resist. My apologies. I do like the idea. We already have several youth-only seasons. Why not add one more? Seriously Frank, that would be a great time. Kids are off school. Many parents would be off as well and it doesnt step on much in the way of other hunting. Small game could still be in concurrently and many folks head "to camp" then anyway. I could only add one improvement. Legalize Sunday hunting and give the kids all three days. All those scouters on Saturday and Sunday would put on some nice drives for the kids.Then on Monday, deer season starts as usual. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
BT,
My suggestion was half in jest and half seriously. The jest part was because I would have been interested to see how many folks would be in favor of it so close to the regular rifle season. It has been my personal experience that some folks are "all for" youth only seasons provided it doesn't interfere with their own hunting opportunities. I make no attempt to hide the fact that I am less than pleased with the current overlap of so many seasons during October and its subsequent affect on archery season. However, I realize that there are other hunters with other interests out there and the current arrangement of seasons benefits the largest number of people. I am just waiting for someone to say "Lets have a youth-only archery season the week before regular archery starts." :) Iposted my original comment half seriously because there really isn't much going on in the hunting world during those two days. Yes, small game is still open but the number of small game hunters in my neck of the woods on those two days is actually quite small. It has been my experience that hunters aren't mutually exclusive to one hunting activity or another. Most of the small game guys rifle hunt and vice versa. Most hunters are getting ready for rifle season during that time anyway. One of the goose seasons is also open during that time frame but the number of folks that partake in that activity is usually pretty small as well from my experience. If the PGC should do away with the Pheasant Program (a huge blunder)would that mean the end of the biggest youth recruiting source, The Youth Pheasant Hunt? I am looking for clarification. Are you saying that the pheasant program was a big blunder of losing the pheasant program would be a big blunder? |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
Frank,
We're on the same page. I really think that at least one of the suggestions was intended to start another archers vs gunners flame war so I knew exactly where you were coming from. But actually, I cant think of a better time for a couple of extar youth days. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
how many "Kids Only"days would all you be satisfied with? Kidscan be taken hunting and eithercome out liking it or notunder the seasons present. How does giving them special days make them like it more? I'm asking this legitimately, I honestly don't understand how giving them special treatment is going to lead to them being a hunter more than the opportunities already present?
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RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
I agree 100%. Take a kid hunting during the regular season leaving your weapons home as their mentor = youth hunting day!
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RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
youth [ yooth ] noun (plural youths) Definition: 1.time when somebody is young:the period of human life between childhood and maturity 2.time of being young:the state of being young 3.young man:a boy or young man in his teens or early twenties 4.early stage:an early stage of something I can take a youth of under 18 out and let him or her shoot a deer and notags would be required for them. I wouldn't have to purchasetags for my children who are 15 and under then. Save me a few$$ and get free venison for the price of my adult tag to make it legal for them to huntwithout a tag. Sounds like a good idea to me. They just saved me $$ from not have to buy 3 jr tags. Free turkeys also. Now that is a great idea they came up with. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
ORIGINAL: John Lee Pettimore youth [ yooth ] noun (plural youths) Definition: 1.time when somebody is young:the period of human life between childhood and maturity 2.time of being young:the state of being young 3.young man:a boy or young man in his teens or early twenties 4.early stage:an early stage of something I can take a youth of under 18 out and let him or her shoot a deer and notags would be required for them. I wouldn't have to purchasetags for my children who are 15 and under then. Save me a few$$ and get free venison for the price of my adult tag to make it legal for them to huntwithout a tag. Sounds like a good idea to me. They just saved me $$ from not have to buy 3 jr tags. Free turkeys also. Now that is a great idea they came up with. JLP, why don`t you just tell us what your "last" username was here? |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
Preliminary approval passed today!!
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RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
how many "Kids Only"days would all you be satisfied with? Kidscan be taken hunting and eithercome out liking it or notunder the seasons present. How does giving them special days make them like it more? It could be argued that much the same could occur between two youths (or is that yutes? :)) but I think the chances would be much less because there are significantly fewer of them out there. Now don't go taking this as I am 100% behind adding a youth only "pre-season" for every hunting season we have. I think there is some merit to introducing them to hunting as the "rest of us" experience it. The key is determining how much of each we give them. That, I do not have an answer for. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
Originally we talked about the youths that are under 12. The ones that are allowed to hunt turkey, squirrel and ground hogs. I don't think they stand much of a chance competing with adults during the regular season. Where I hunt, deer aren't often walking calmly during the first day of rifle season. These kids are going to have trouble getting a bead on pressured deer. Remember, these guys are small and will have trouble finding a deer in the scope and holding steady. Remember, these under 12 kids are very young. Warmer weather would be a big plus for getting these little guys in the field. I do like the idea of the Friday and Saturday before regular gun season though. It will be cooler weatherbut they are off of school for the Thanksgiving vacation. The idea of having it before Archery season is also an excellentidea. This season should be for those under 12 only. It should give the kids a chance at very calm deer. It sounds like some of these guys are really worried about a 9 or 10 year old kid getting a buck before them. I don't see the roar of a rifle affecting turkeys much more than the roar of other turkey hunter's and smallgame hunter's shotguns. Besides, the kids would only be in the woods a day or two. The turkey guys got a couple weeks to fill that tag if the season were in early November.. |
RE: PGC staff drops an important ball for our youth
Anyone that would give an 8 year old a 30-06 isn't much of a mentor.I imagine most mentors that would be passionate enough to take a young kid out hunting would know better.
No one has the statistics but I don't forsee many 18 year olds taking out a 9 year old kid.Possible?yes.Likely?No. Up until this point,I've been more interested taking my daughter with me to observe and learn.She isn'tmature enough to handle a rifle and she isn't a good enough shot yet.When it all comes together,I'll let her attemp to take game, be it this year when she's nine or when she's fourteen.Somehow,I doubt she'll be ready this year but I'm glad the choice is mine.The same goes for my son.One thing is for sure.Before they ever fire a shot at an animal,they'll know what kind of effort it takes and they'll understand it isn't easy.They'll also understand the important role they play as hunters if they choose to hunt. |
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