USP vs PGC
 

It appears although the USP was granted standing,they now fell on their face,as the case appears to have been thrown out.I guess the court didn't buy their argument about the deer pawing the trees with their hooves or that mountain lions were having a huge impact on the herd.Apparently the PGC's science overwhelmed the USP's conspiracy theories.What a waste of everyone's time and money.It was worth a few good laughs though.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Doug, where can I find that information?

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Sorry Baily,but once again you have no idea what you're talking about.The state attorney general defended the PGC.The PGC did not spend their money so this worthless and frivelous suit did not bankrupt them.It's a real fine sportsman that would want more programs and services cut.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Bailey, I'm surprised at how many mis-statements you make.
The USP blew a lot of cold, hard member's cash.
Your and my tax dollars were spent to defend this suit not --- PGC funds.
So, who is laughing? I think I know.
I was told more than a year ago that the PGC was overjoyed at this suit as it would deplete USP funds and cost the PGC nothing and as a side benefit, show the USP for what they are..

RE: USP vs PGC
 

First of all,what scientific study have they done that hasn't been worthwhile?They've done a fawn mortality study,buck dispersal study and now a doe mortality study.These studies have all been worth while in my book.the fawn mortality helped them to better understand the recruitment rate and how different habitat conditions have an effect.Hunters constantly whine and complain about the PGC's herd estimates and fawn recruitment is a big part of that.You can't know how many preseason deer we have unless you know how many fawns are actually making it until the fall.The doe mortality study that they're doing right now paints a picture that shows how hunters impact the herd in different types of habitat with varying degrees of access.You should check it out some time.It's pretty enlihtening and blows a hole in the USP's theory that hunters are killing all the deer.Besides,much of that money came from outside sources.

You made a remark that hunters are now smiling because the PGC now has less cash for other programs.Anyone that smiles over that is a disgrace to every sportsman out there.I never said that person was you.

The mud slinging is being done by the USP supporters towards every single thing the PGC does.In most cases,it's done without any basis of facts,much like the USP lawsuit.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

I'm surprised you weren't banned for calling me a wannabe bunny cop.Then againI guess that wasn't considered negative mudslinging.

The truth is,the court saw the USP for what they really are and now it's obvious to everyone else.Do you think they'll refund all the membership money to all the people that got hoodwinked into joining because they claimed they actually had a chance.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

I never said anything about all hunters.The PGC did not do these scientific studies because of this law suit.they were either started or finished before the law suit was filed.What studies are you talking about?The PGC has all the scientific evidence they need to prove that herd reductions were necessary.Where have they lied about this?Asfar as pleas for less doe tags,2G(where most of the complaints are coming from)had their allocations slashed from 52000 two years ago to 19000 this year.The USP did not have one valid point through this whole process.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Were he really up to speed on this stuff, he would've countered with that oldUSP bromide about some of those studies having been financed by "secret" grants from Audubon and The Heinz Foundation.

:D

'Course that wouldn't have dove-tailed with the "bankrupt the PGC" theory. Oh well, All's well that ends well. In the end, USP has used it as an effective recruiting tool for their own ends, at least according to their view of things.

One wonders if the Attorney General's office will seek recovery of tax dollars spent to defend against this foolishness?

Here be the actual court decision:

http://www.courts.state.pa.us/OpPosting/CWealth/unpublished/427MD05_1-10-07.pdf

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Maybe we won't hear from the USP anymore.And that other guy.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

That would be a blessing but the other guy loves to hear himself speak so he'll be telling his spin on this.The last I heard,he was having a special rifle built to handle the new breed of coyote/wolf hybrids.I imagine with some luck,we'll see him checking in one of those 100 lb animals next month at Mosquito creek.Hopefully his new rifle is done in time.We probably won't hear much from the other 6 members of the USP for quite some time though.They're too busy searching the woods for evidence of the mountain lions that are devisating our deer herd.On top of that,they'll be out scouting for the last few remaining deer so next year,they won't have anything to cry about.According to their testimony,DCNR was upset because the deer were pawing up the trees with their hooves(yes,they actually provided that in a court document).Since they learned this,their new scouting technique is to find trees that were all pawed up.Since they probably won't find much evidence of this,they should be gone for quite a while.Good riddens.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

LOL

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Bailey, what on earth are you talking about, "scientific research?"
They did "no' additional research that I am aware of.
They had tons of research on their side, from many years prior to the deer management program ever going into effect.
If you really "know" something, anything, why don't you share it?

RE: USP vs PGC
 

As DougE pointed out, you simply dont know what you're talking about. the taxpayers footed the bill for the defense of the ludicrous USP suit.

Whats more troubling is that someone who calls himself a "real fine sportsman" would cheer the waste of PGC dollars and promote the agency's financial demise. Thats a sentiment we should expect from PETA and anyone who spouts that kind of drivel is way less than a "real fine sportsman"

By the way, you havent answered my question from that ridiculous thread about shortening bow season.

Are you EC or lead poisoner or deerfly back under a new ISP and screen name?

I'm betting on EC!

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Since you guys know the members on here maybe you can answer some questions.
Has the USP been around long?How many members?You guys seem to pretty much hate them.Is this because of the lawsuit or are there other reasons?The only place I ever read about them is on message boards so other then the lawsuit I'm not really familar with them.
Doug,are you going to the club during the hunt?

RE: USP vs PGC
 

I was thinking the same thing.

You know all the folks out there who claim or think the DCNR would do a better job at the Deer Managemnet end of things is being very foolish. Maybe the PGC has been ignoring some of Pa's hunters over the HR issue, but they have stayed the course they need to and those complaining are still in the minority.

Anyway the PGC is forced to listen somewhat to the hunters in Pa due to us (the hunters) paying the bills. In the DCNR case they would have less to worry about when it came to the cries of some Pa hunters because their resources wouldn't totally lie with Pa license purchases. Pa hunters would have less of a voice if the DCNR took over. Think about it.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Germain - as I understand it, and I've only been involved since '98, the USP was formed by a splinter group of the PFSC who were not happy with the "conservation" stance the PFSC was taking. I'm not familiar with the issues of the day but allegedly some of thesefolks cared more about hook and bullet issues rather than the overriding big picture.A modern day example - habitat vs. deer numbers. From what I've heard, the USP was fairly tame initially and then a more radical faction tookover leadership positions. Since then they've been pretty much critics rather than craftsmen.

As far as membership - no one knows for sure. They used to list member clubs on their website until sportsmen called each club to verify that info. Lo and behold, the info vanished off their website. Many of their publications list 40,000 yet at the last hearing any legislator allowed to them to testify at the number presented was 25,000.

We attend each major sportsmens groups annual meetings every year as well as local "chapter" or "division" meetings" (darn, I have to work Friday night - the PFSC Southern Division meeting is at the PFBC headquarters). FWIW - the PFSC, UBP, PANWTF and others all draw a large crowds and substantial state agency support in terms of people and presentations, the USP does not.

You can decide what that means in terms of influence and importance.

p.s. look for a press release soon regarding one of their top people and a little issue of Title 34 violations. And yes, the violations involve deer.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

As you can see by my prior posts I'm definately not a fan of the DCNR.I think it would be a disaster to turn the SGL's which hunters paid for over to them.Just what I want to see on a SGL,ATV riders.[:@]

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Thank-you neville.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

IT IS NOT OVER TILL THE FAT LADY SINGS AND SHE IS STILL WARMING UP !!!! GET READY FOR PAGE TWO.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

I'm not sure of the exact year Germain but I think it goes back to the mid 80's when "bonus tags" first came about. Much of their their original core was I believe, from the Allegheny County league that spilt from the PFSC.

This is only from my vague recollections so it may not be 100% accurate as to the timing and there may have been other splinter groups involved.
I do know this, The USP or it core members have been predicting the demise of our deer herd for something well over 20 years. that has soemthing to do with their credibiltyproblem. At least one of their high ranking people comes from very close to my home and I can tell you that his reputation is something way less than honorable on mant fronts and more than one sportmans organization has been burned finacially by this guy.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

and page three and page four and so on ad nauseum. We know they aint gonna give up. Neither will Al Queida. But they will both continue to lose again and again and again. I sure wish those guys would get a life!

I remember a thread titled USP lets roll. I guess now it should be USP, lets roll over;)

RE: USP vs PGC
 

germain -the two "so-called" bird dogs had to go out so I cut that last reply a litle short. ;)

A few more personal observations on PA sportsmens groups...

A couple of years ago Dominic Pileggi was the Senate Chair of the Game & Fisheries Committee. One of his staff who lived in Delaware Co. had a deer problem. I put her in touch with a local UBP member who I knew and trusted, and just like that the UBPwas golden.

In the last two years, Bucks Co. farmers have gone ballistic over the number of deer they have to deal with. It got ugly. The PGC had multiple meetings with these folks - some nice, some not so nice. Bottom line was we said hunters had to be involved first and foremost. After a few meetings, the PFSC leadership got involved and their Bucks Co. Federation was also invited to the table. Today, Rep. Chuck McIlhinney is now Sen. McIlhinney, the Chair of the Game & Fisheries Committee, his office hooks up PFSC members with his sportsmen and its a win-win for all involved. The key factor is taht the PFSC and their members are known and trusted.

The Ruffed Grouse Society is notas wellknown but they own and we operate in conjunction withthem a "Royer" a $250,000 piece of equipment used to create small game habitat all across PA. Partnerships!

Wildlife Habitat Unlimited - all they do is habitat work in the NC region (said TIC). No PR, no fuss, no whatever, just a habitat partner and supporter we work with day in and day out to enhance wildlife habitat.

And there is so many more groups.....

Positive , positive, positive.

Some daysI just want to ask folks what they have done today to further our hunting and trapping heritage, besides complain.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

losthorn - your profile links you to Jim Slinsky. While I personally get along with Jim,( we've enjoyed a conversation or two over a few beers :))and feel he provides great entertainment to PA hunters, perhaps his/your enthusiasm in this case is a bit unrealistic.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Thanks BT and neville.I belong to a few sportsmen's groups myself and think it is a good idea to be involved with more then just buying a hunting license.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

The entire mess is a sad and embarrassing thing for Pennsylvania hunters.
Bailey is dead wrong on his "cost" analysis but, the PGC did have to attend to this temper tantrum with personnel time that could have been much better applied serving us in a positive way. Sporstmen, got gipped.

I honestly hope the USP continues it's insanity as I think that may finally disgust enough of the remaining members to put them to bed for good.
One need only scan the various hunting message boards to see where themajority of sportsmen stand in regard to the USP vs PGC.
The fat lady is suffering from terminal diahrea!

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Just who should we hire to manage the herd? I don't know of any companies like that.
Alt left because of threats on his life by PA hunters who disagreed w/ th plan.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Yes it is great news for the hunting public all across the nation. Hunters in PA are rejoicing that an end has finally been put to this bogus lawsuit by a group of disgruntled ....people! Check out all the PA bulletin boards.
Did anyone notice that the license sales were down this year just under 13,000, and the amount of complaintants in the lawsuit was just over 13,000? Hhmmm

BTBow - you forgot one possibility for BaileyHill... Don Bailey, the usp attorney, who's laughing all the way to the bank!

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Never thought of that. Something tells me that he's not laughing on his way to the bank though. Any attorney who would take that case probably doesnt have enough gas money to chase ambulances.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

True. From what I hear, the guys never been too successful with many cases.

As for the money BaileyHill. not only did the PA taxpayers cover the court/lawyer costs, but the sportsmen/women paid for the time that several PGC employees had to waste on this frivilous lawsuit / membership drive.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Bailey,you need to get out and actually meet some of people from DCNR,PGC,PSU and the USforest service.These people are knowledgable proffessionals that have more evidence to provejust how the deer have impacted the habitat.Alot of this is new science because it's relatively recent history that deer herds have exploded all over the country and wildlife agencies are just now starting to get a handle on it.We've been going through it for longer than most so we have alot of the cutting edge information.I've met and gotten to knowmany of these people over the past several years and I can assure you,their dedication is to the habitat and the deer,not money.Most of these guys are hunters themselves and see the need to fix the habitat.Archer58 and I have ameeting tonight where we'll be making plans to do more browse impact surveys this spring in 2G.In attendence will be our local district forester from DCNRand Dave Jackson from PSU's coop ext.He does habitat workshops all over the state and is an expert on the relationship deer play with the habitat.Both of these guys are serious hunters and neither wants all the deer killed even though their degrees are in forestry.Both the PGC and DCNR have all the latest information to manage both the herd and the habitat.This is gonna take time so we need to be patientbut the wait will be worth it eventually.We didn't get in this situation over night and it won't be fixed in just a couple of years.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Do you have any idea how under-paid most PGC and DCNR employees are?Where do you get your information thata fee increase is needed to give employees a raise?Part of it is needed to fill all the vacant WCO positions.Some which are vacant because the WCO's left because they could make more money elsewhere.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

There's a WCO in the district next to me that I'd like to see his salay doubled.This guy takesmuch of his own time and even his own money to put on habitat workshops that clearly illustrate why the PGC is doing what they're doing.Iasked him to speak to our sportsman's club a few years ago and he made the 45 minute trip at 9:00 pm to do so.That's dedication and I doubt he got paid over time.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

That makes no sense.How could I be in his position?I'm simply stating that the guy earns every penney he makes.He's alsovery good at law enforcement which brings in alot of money in terms of fines.I'm willing to bet those fineshe generates from poachers and baiters more than covers his salary.

Where's your information that they need a lisence increase to give their present employees a raise.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

I talk to plenty of people each day that are whining and crying about no deer.None of these people ever take the time to get out and actually talk to the professionals to see why things are the way they are.Most hunters have no clue what deer actually eat.They don't know the differance between preferred and non-preferred browse species.there's workshops all over this state that teach people what to look for and most of the nay-sayers refuse to go and learn.They see wide open woods with a blanket of ferns on the ground and expect to see 50 deer a day.That's not the way it should be.the PGC did exactly what needed to be done.I see less as a resuly myself but I still have no problems finding and killing deer on the same public land where hunters are crying about no deer.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

You know what guys? I have to add another possibility here...

Maybe Lockhorns, Ledgend LS, Buffalo hunter, Ulysses or whatever else he calls himself these days has found a new name andway to get back on here. It's funny how easy it is to pick up a personality after just a few dozen posts.

So, should we start a pool??

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Let me get this strait.You think it's normal and expected that hunters should se 50 deer a day?With that same comment,you say that's fine for the habitat.Am I reading you correctly?Because if I am,you certainly have no idea what so ever, about what you're talking about.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

"the largest % of rank and file sportsmen"
??? 13,216 people does not constitute a majority. Nor does the suspect 40,000 number. most, if not all I've ever talked to, never even heard of the usp.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Uh, thats what this thread is about.

RE: USP vs PGC
 

Maybe Lockhorns, Ledgend LS, Buffalo hunter, Ulysses or whatever else he calls himself these days has found a new name andway to get back on here. It's funny how easy it is to pick up a personality after just a few dozen posts.

So, should we start a pool??

*************

Well, there is an area known as Bailey Hill just south of Ulysses, PA. Used to be one of my favorite woodchuck-hunting spots, before someone built a "sportsman's resort" part way up the hill.

:eek:

RE: USP vs PGC
 

"A pool!" Yeah, and then the dang deer will come and cut the liner with their hooves.
[:'(]