doughboysigep

You are joking, right? Why do I have to substantiate what deer I decide to take as long as it is legally harvested? What if I don't have a doe permit (which I haven't for 3 years). What if I haven't seen many (any) deer and get an opportunity to take a spike? I am not necessarily going to take that spike or 4 pt., especially early in the season (gun season - but I might with the bow), but I may. Oh, and by the way, I took a six point (small basket rack), so that would be "legal" under the AR and accomplishes nothing different than shooting the spike - so what is the benefit of that type of AR - probably worse in the long run (??).
Oh, and your "fact" about taking the younger deer "weakening the herds chances of survival" are perposterous. If you haven't noticed, deer are very resilient and adaptable - they will be just fine weather we shoot spikes or 10 points. Like Steve, I'd really like to see you facts behind that statement. The bottom line is you want to see trophy deer, I am just as happy with a 4 pt as an 8 point (wouldn't mind getting a whopper, who would). I am a deer hunter, not a trophy hunter. Maybe we need more hunting shows that depict "real" hunting (Fitzgeralds come to mind).

tsoc

I am also interested in seeing something to support your contention.A whitetail buck is at their physical peak between 4 1/2 and 6 1/2.

mlo3135127

I think this would be a good idea.

doctariAFC

Maybe, maybe not. NYS has had a longer than average Regular Season for quite a long time, and, up until 2004 (season), really, hunters did not have the complaints they do now. Much of our current woes stem from two different outside influences. They are Farm Bureau and Insurance Companies. The big one was the Farm Bureau, who asked for a study to be conducted concerning crop damage caused by deer. Cornell University was commissioned to conduct this study, and I believe this was published in 2003 or 2004 (my memory is a bit foggy on exact time frame), which stated that NY's agriculture industry sustains approximately $25 MILLION annually in deer caused crop damage. In response to this, the DEC increased DMPs and also substantially increased DDP and DMAP. Remember, not too long ago (2002 and 2003) NYS had record high deer harvests, both bucks and total. Then, in 2004, the bottom fell out.

To refresh some memories, here is a link to the DEC press release concerning the 2003 harvest.

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/press/pressrel/2004/200418.html

NOw, 2005 brought major changes to the big game seasons, including another extension of Regular Season, to add one more weekend. 2005 harvest wasn't ridiculous. Looks like this year's harvest is on par with 2005.

So, to be frank, I really don't know what you all are talking about. It isn't as if we have just introduced a long gun season only a couple years ago and that is the issue. Heck no. It also certainly is not hunters harvesting more than one buck per year. That ain't it either, as @ 5% of hunters who successfully harvest one buck, actually get a second buck. THat small a figure (considering 12% - 14% of hunters harvest a buck in the first place) doesn't make a difference at all.

The larger issue was the all out slaughter of antlerless, taking the reproductive potentials down dramatically. When we harvest 146,000 antlerless deer, nearly 94,000 of which are considered "mature does", The answer to our woes is more than obvious.

But that is all water under the bridge now, isn't it? We don't get a redo, and this is my entire point concerning wildlife management. We knee-jerked to the demands of outside entities to get the deer damage problems under control, and we have, much to the chagrin of hunters today. We over harvested antlerless, especially mature does. We are now attempting to "stabilize" the herd, as to avoid the peaks and valleys in deer numbers year to year, but this will take a bit of time to bear fruit. AR does nothing to address an overharvest of does, does it? Last I checked it doesn't. No biological benefit to the herd.

doctariAFC

Just to help everyone out concerning some of the factors I addressed which played a big part in the mass slaughter of antlerless deer, here is a link to the 2004 deer harvest report. Pay particular attention to the reasons for "successfully reducing" deer numbers...

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/press/pressrel/2005/200522.html

One thing that works against us hunters is it appears many of us hunters have a very, very short memory.

BigJohn H

Steve how many wild life biologists have you spoken to that told you ?

The idea of taking out older deer which also means does too. Thepromotion better genes thus strengthening the herd is not a new concept, anyone who advertises hunting management bucks is doing so to get rid of deer that deplete the gene pool.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/genetics/

http://www.qdma.com/whitetails/default.asp

The problem is some hunters don't take the time or care to check if the buck in their sites is a mature deer, they just take their pumpkin chunkers and open up with all the ammo they have and kill everything that walks by. If you wipe out all the young deer what will be left to keep the herd going answer nothing. Look on line and you will see numerous places that promote management deer hunts, why because it is bad for the herd? No because it is good for the herd. It is the same for humans, talk to a doctor and he will tell you the same thing, the older a person gets the greater the chances are that they will produce offspring with defects.

doctariAFC

Hang on a minute. We're talking apples and oranges in the same paragraph, here.

Genetics are DNA-based cellular strands, which carry the blueprint to offspring's inheritable traits. These traits do not improve or degrade with time. They are established at conception, and carry right through until death. Genetics do not start out as superior during youth, and inferior at old age.

Birth defect potentials do increase with age, but has nothing to do with genetic traits. It is aging and the health of the reproductive capabilities, which, in every living creature, degrades over time. This has nothing to do with the genetics of a specific animal, rather, its ability to produce sperm or ovum which are healthy. Over time, this does degrade, but, so does mating dominance, as is the way of nature. Nature already accounts for this aging characteristic through mating rituals and new dominant animals supplanting the "old guard".

But the quality of a bloodline does not change within a specific animal over time. Their abilities, physical function does, not the genetics themselves.

BigJohn H

So the fact that the chromosomes getting tangled in older animals causing them to brake apart has nothing to do with genetic defects? And so genetic defects cannot be passed on ?

jgbennett6

well its a matter of the telemeres of a chromosome start to shrivel as the animal gets older. ...as far as doughboy stated, going back to jsut hunting is great however, hunting started to provide a need for food. that need is no longer as great, so to kill the yearling that will give you 10 lbs of meat that cost you the clothes bullets, liscence and time, money better spent on other more affordable food. also the Fitzgeralds are terrible examples....

doctariAFC

These are defects in the animals ability to successfully produce healthy sperm or ovum. Every animal, regardless of quality of genetics has the potential to pass along a mutated reproductive mechanism, regardless of age. Birth defects can occur at all stages of reporductive maturity, with the risk increasing with age, but this does not mean an older animal will definitely pass along some sort of abhoration, and a younger animal will not. This is not unique to deer, this is true across all living things on earth.