What I see in my crystal ball, concerning PA.
12-14-2006, 01:12 PM
#21
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location:
Posts: 258
RE: What I see in my crystal ball, concerning PA.
ORIGINAL: doctariAFC
Sadly, we have this severe tunnel vision on deer. Reflects in the cried for QDM and AR etc. I don't hear too much in the way of habitat improvement, population strategies to assure enough rabbits and squirrels, etc are also healthy in numbers... All we seem to look at is deer, to the detriment of hunting as a sport....
Sadly, we have this severe tunnel vision on deer. Reflects in the cried for QDM and AR etc. I don't hear too much in the way of habitat improvement, population strategies to assure enough rabbits and squirrels, etc are also healthy in numbers... All we seem to look at is deer, to the detriment of hunting as a sport....
12-14-2006, 01:19 PM
#22
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 172
RE: What I see in my crystal ball, concerning PA.
QRM Quality Rabbit Management...weeeee my beagles would love that!
about the only thing the PGC can claim as partialsucess is elk thanks to the RMEF and turkey thanks to NWTF without those two great orgs funding it and supplying the biologists the PGC would have watched these two species disappear as well from Pa...crying the "we need more Administrative fees let's hike the license fee" song.
about the only thing the PGC can claim as partialsucess is elk thanks to the RMEF and turkey thanks to NWTF without those two great orgs funding it and supplying the biologists the PGC would have watched these two species disappear as well from Pa...crying the "we need more Administrative fees let's hike the license fee" song.
12-14-2006, 01:38 PM
#23
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,236
RE: What I see in my crystal ball, concerning PA.
ORIGINAL: muzzyman88
livbucks, I guess I didn't mean it come off like that. I will never shoot an animal I didn't want. I'll take a doe for the same reasons most do, I like the venison. But, I'm a trophy hunter at heart and live for the challenge of hunting trophy bucks.
I think most people just plainly forget that its a recreational sport, not a grocery shopping trip.
livbucks, I guess I didn't mean it come off like that. I will never shoot an animal I didn't want. I'll take a doe for the same reasons most do, I like the venison. But, I'm a trophy hunter at heart and live for the challenge of hunting trophy bucks.
I think most people just plainly forget that its a recreational sport, not a grocery shopping trip.
12-14-2006, 01:40 PM
#24
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location:
Posts: 258
RE: What I see in my crystal ball, concerning PA.
ORIGINAL: eagle chickie
QRM Quality Rabbit Management...weeeee my beagles would love that!
about the only thing the PGC can claim as partialsucess is elk thanks to the RMEF and turkey thanks to NWTF without those two great orgs funding it and supplying the biologists the PGC would have watched these two species disappear as well from Pa...crying the "we need more Administrative fees let's hike the license fee" song.
QRM Quality Rabbit Management...weeeee my beagles would love that!
about the only thing the PGC can claim as partialsucess is elk thanks to the RMEF and turkey thanks to NWTF without those two great orgs funding it and supplying the biologists the PGC would have watched these two species disappear as well from Pa...crying the "we need more Administrative fees let's hike the license fee" song.
12-14-2006, 01:46 PM
#25
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 184
RE: What I see in my crystal ball, concerning PA.
More interesting information!
LP, you make some fascinating points. Many hunters in NYS also are lamenting the diminishing small game species as well. Grouse has been the major topic in our area, and the DEC a couple years back instituted a Grouse Hunter Observation program to collect and analyze feedback from participating grouse hunters. Yes, landowners need to get involved. I have some ideas, applicable to NYS, but we are working to make what we are crafting something that could be easily adapted to meet other State's laws and practices. Not so much fun.
eagle chickie - QRM That's classic! I love it..... However.... You nearly hit a home run, a la blind squirrel finding an acorn, with that statement....
I have a "belief" (more than that, as it is factual, but, I'll call it a belief) that only one true way to manage game exists, which will be successful. It isn't QDM, QRM, QGM, QTM, QPM, QEM, QMM, or whatever...... It is simple, but very, very difficult.... It's called QLM, or QHM, depending upon which way you wish to define it. I'll use QHM, as this is truly what it is.
Quality Habitat Management
No matter what species you wish to examine, no matter what State you live in, 100% of everything in nature starts literally from the ground up. Starts with geology, especially in regards to the water tables, and goes from there. Without quality habitat, you have a snowballs chance at any kind of quality game management.
And this is the biggest challenge to hunters. Not because it is hard work, possibly expensive work, and requires working cooperatively with land owners, getting them to open their lands to hunters, not just taking improvements. The challenge comes from the moonbat tree huggers and enviromentalist wackos who have been very successful in bamboozling the public and winning philosophies in government concerning the landscapes, forests, meadows, etc. That is, a policy of "let it go wild, no touchy, no feely".
Thoughts or questions?
LP, you make some fascinating points. Many hunters in NYS also are lamenting the diminishing small game species as well. Grouse has been the major topic in our area, and the DEC a couple years back instituted a Grouse Hunter Observation program to collect and analyze feedback from participating grouse hunters. Yes, landowners need to get involved. I have some ideas, applicable to NYS, but we are working to make what we are crafting something that could be easily adapted to meet other State's laws and practices. Not so much fun.
eagle chickie - QRM That's classic! I love it..... However.... You nearly hit a home run, a la blind squirrel finding an acorn, with that statement....
I have a "belief" (more than that, as it is factual, but, I'll call it a belief) that only one true way to manage game exists, which will be successful. It isn't QDM, QRM, QGM, QTM, QPM, QEM, QMM, or whatever...... It is simple, but very, very difficult.... It's called QLM, or QHM, depending upon which way you wish to define it. I'll use QHM, as this is truly what it is.
Quality Habitat Management
No matter what species you wish to examine, no matter what State you live in, 100% of everything in nature starts literally from the ground up. Starts with geology, especially in regards to the water tables, and goes from there. Without quality habitat, you have a snowballs chance at any kind of quality game management.
And this is the biggest challenge to hunters. Not because it is hard work, possibly expensive work, and requires working cooperatively with land owners, getting them to open their lands to hunters, not just taking improvements. The challenge comes from the moonbat tree huggers and enviromentalist wackos who have been very successful in bamboozling the public and winning philosophies in government concerning the landscapes, forests, meadows, etc. That is, a policy of "let it go wild, no touchy, no feely".
Thoughts or questions?
12-14-2006, 02:42 PM
#26
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Central PA
Posts: 2,299
RE: What I see in my crystal ball, concerning PA.
doctarAFC, I definitely know where you're coming from with the land management thing. My family has been in the timber industry for 60+ years. We own and operate a large company here in central PA. We know first hand what benifits wildlife see when we select cut forests. The problem is, as you stated, too many tree huggers out there screaming to save all of these old growth forest. Instead, these old trees rot away and smother everything underneath.
What we also see in areas we've cut is that the regeneration that comes up is typically not oak anymore. Its mostly maple. Its a cycle that we're seeing, nature's way if you will. DCNR seems to think the deer are eating the oaks and erect ridiculous fences to keep the deer out. These areas are then either left alone to regerate or in some cases planted with oak.
This is one reason why I'm a firm believer that DCNR and the PA Forestry Division has a huge role in what the PGC does.
In the case of our family hunting property, its been select cut on most of it. We simply cut an area, wait several years until the regrowth really takes hold, then move on to another area and do the same. We've been reaping the benifits as there is a tremendous amount of undergrowth. And, we've have entirely too many deer in most cases. And we don't have that "browse line" the PGC and its "biologist" claim all over the state.
What we also see in areas we've cut is that the regeneration that comes up is typically not oak anymore. Its mostly maple. Its a cycle that we're seeing, nature's way if you will. DCNR seems to think the deer are eating the oaks and erect ridiculous fences to keep the deer out. These areas are then either left alone to regerate or in some cases planted with oak.
This is one reason why I'm a firm believer that DCNR and the PA Forestry Division has a huge role in what the PGC does.
In the case of our family hunting property, its been select cut on most of it. We simply cut an area, wait several years until the regrowth really takes hold, then move on to another area and do the same. We've been reaping the benifits as there is a tremendous amount of undergrowth. And, we've have entirely too many deer in most cases. And we don't have that "browse line" the PGC and its "biologist" claim all over the state.
12-14-2006, 02:56 PM
#27
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Allston MA USA
Posts: 533
RE: What I see in my crystal ball, concerning PA.
ORIGINAL: doctariAFC
More interesting information!
Quality Habitat Management
No matter what species you wish to examine, no matter what State you live in, 100% of everything in nature starts literally from the ground up. Starts with geology, especially in regards to the water tables, and goes from there. Without quality habitat, you have a snowballs chance at any kind of quality game management.
More interesting information!
Quality Habitat Management
No matter what species you wish to examine, no matter what State you live in, 100% of everything in nature starts literally from the ground up. Starts with geology, especially in regards to the water tables, and goes from there. Without quality habitat, you have a snowballs chance at any kind of quality game management.
Well said
12-14-2006, 02:58 PM
#28
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 184
RE: What I see in my crystal ball, concerning PA.
ORIGINAL: muzzyman88
doctarAFC, I definitely know where you're coming from with the land management thing. My family has been in the timber industry for 60+ years. We own and operate a large company here in central PA. We know first hand what benifits wildlife see when we select cut forests. The problem is, as you stated, too many tree huggers out there screaming to save all of these old growth forest. Instead, these old trees rot away and smother everything underneath.
What we also see in areas we've cut is that the regeneration that comes up is typically not oak anymore. Its mostly maple. Its a cycle that we're seeing, nature's way if you will. DCNR seems to think the deer are eating the oaks and erect ridiculous fences to keep the deer out. These areas are then either left alone to regerate or in some cases planted with oak.
This is one reason why I'm a firm believer that DCNR and the PA Forestry Division has a huge role in what the PGC does.
In the case of our family hunting property, its been select cut on most of it. We simply cut an area, wait several years until the regrowth really takes hold, then move on to another area and do the same. We've been reaping the benifits as there is a tremendous amount of undergrowth. And, we've have entirely too many deer in most cases. And we don't have that "browse line" the PGC and its "biologist" claim all over the state.
doctarAFC, I definitely know where you're coming from with the land management thing. My family has been in the timber industry for 60+ years. We own and operate a large company here in central PA. We know first hand what benifits wildlife see when we select cut forests. The problem is, as you stated, too many tree huggers out there screaming to save all of these old growth forest. Instead, these old trees rot away and smother everything underneath.
What we also see in areas we've cut is that the regeneration that comes up is typically not oak anymore. Its mostly maple. Its a cycle that we're seeing, nature's way if you will. DCNR seems to think the deer are eating the oaks and erect ridiculous fences to keep the deer out. These areas are then either left alone to regerate or in some cases planted with oak.
This is one reason why I'm a firm believer that DCNR and the PA Forestry Division has a huge role in what the PGC does.
In the case of our family hunting property, its been select cut on most of it. We simply cut an area, wait several years until the regrowth really takes hold, then move on to another area and do the same. We've been reaping the benifits as there is a tremendous amount of undergrowth. And, we've have entirely too many deer in most cases. And we don't have that "browse line" the PGC and its "biologist" claim all over the state.
Deer are browsers, and that "browse line" being seen in many, many areas of PA certainly exist, because a high canopy of the mature forests preclude the tender forbes deer prefer, to grow.
But we also have geological changes that we also must contend with, and this directly affects the water tables. I speak directly about development. A new strip mall, Wal-Mart, parking lot, sub-division, whatever, even 10 or 15 miles from your "traditional hunting grounds" has profound affects on the water tables - the ripple effect that no one talks about. This also affects what food sources will be able to grow in any given area affected by these changes.
Now, I am not saying, halt all development, halt it all now! Quite the contrary, I am supportive of RESPONSIBLE development. But, since our lands are more developed than ever, and in the NE we have all but eliminated nature's way of renewing the lands (forest fires), our task must become moreso Quality Habitat Management, or else the wildlife management plans will invariably fail.
You have seen this first-hand with selective cutting of your property. Let the light in and the food will grow. THen the critters will come and eat.
I would check into any potential change in the water tables in your area. I am not an arborist, but I believe maples require less water than oaks...
12-14-2006, 03:15 PM
#29
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NW. PA
Posts: 135
RE: What I see in my crystal ball, concerning PA.
Lead/
I would pay 50$ for a license that gave me buck,doe,Bear and small game tag if the small gameanimals was abundant.Many people would all so I believe without question if the small game was abundant.Out of staters would have to pay 350$ That wouldn't be a bad price if we had these abundant of small game included with deer. I would allow anyone to hunt coyotes for free without a tag all so.Just to eliminate them from Pa.Put them on the endangered species list.Rabbits included in small game and are fun to shoot all so.
[/quote]
If you would only pay $50 for a lis. then why woud an out of state guy pay $350?
I am now an out of state hunter (I moved to NY 2 yrs ago). I already pay about $160 for a lis to hunt. and honestly I feel that is alot. I also spend my time and money doing my own habitat improvement and stocking of gamebirds on land that is open to public hunting. If the price went to $350. I simply would not do it. I'd hunt NY more and probably OH. I could go buy and stock 40 pheasants myself for $350. And I'm sure That if I paid $350 for a lis I may get to shoot 6-8 pheasants a year if the PGC did it.
I agree that having more small game would be great. But it would take more than simply raising hunting fees for out of state guys.
Habitat management is what would workbest for Rabbits Grouse and other small game.
I would pay 50$ for a license that gave me buck,doe,Bear and small game tag if the small gameanimals was abundant.Many people would all so I believe without question if the small game was abundant.Out of staters would have to pay 350$ That wouldn't be a bad price if we had these abundant of small game included with deer. I would allow anyone to hunt coyotes for free without a tag all so.Just to eliminate them from Pa.Put them on the endangered species list.Rabbits included in small game and are fun to shoot all so.
[/quote]
If you would only pay $50 for a lis. then why woud an out of state guy pay $350?
I am now an out of state hunter (I moved to NY 2 yrs ago). I already pay about $160 for a lis to hunt. and honestly I feel that is alot. I also spend my time and money doing my own habitat improvement and stocking of gamebirds on land that is open to public hunting. If the price went to $350. I simply would not do it. I'd hunt NY more and probably OH. I could go buy and stock 40 pheasants myself for $350. And I'm sure That if I paid $350 for a lis I may get to shoot 6-8 pheasants a year if the PGC did it.
I agree that having more small game would be great. But it would take more than simply raising hunting fees for out of state guys.
Habitat management is what would workbest for Rabbits Grouse and other small game.
12-14-2006, 03:43 PM
#30
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location:
Posts: 258
RE: What I see in my crystal ball, concerning PA.
ORIGINAL: Sport 2
Lead/
I would pay 50$ for a license that gave me buck,doe,Bear and small game tag if the small gameanimals was abundant.Many people would all so I believe without question if the small game was abundant.Out of staters would have to pay 350$ That wouldn't be a bad price if we had these abundant of small game included with deer. I would allow anyone to hunt coyotes for free without a tag all so.Just to eliminate them from Pa.Put them on the endangered species list.Rabbits included in small game and are fun to shoot all so.
Lead/
I would pay 50$ for a license that gave me buck,doe,Bear and small game tag if the small gameanimals was abundant.Many people would all so I believe without question if the small game was abundant.Out of staters would have to pay 350$ That wouldn't be a bad price if we had these abundant of small game included with deer. I would allow anyone to hunt coyotes for free without a tag all so.Just to eliminate them from Pa.Put them on the endangered species list.Rabbits included in small game and are fun to shoot all so.
I am now an out of state hunter (I moved to NY 2 yrs ago). I already pay about $160 for a lis to hunt. and honestly I feel that is alot. I also spend my time and money doing my own habitat improvement and stocking of gamebirds on land that is open to public hunting. If the price went to $350. I simply would not do it. I'd hunt NY more and probably OH. I could go buy and stock 40 pheasants myself for $350. And I'm sure That if I paid $350 for a lis I may get to shoot 6-8 pheasants a year if the PGC did it.
I agree that having more small game would be great. But it would take more than simply raising hunting fees for out of state guys.
Habitat management is what would workbest for Rabbits Grouse and other small game.
[/quote]
See,My plan is working allready.No out of staters coming in to Pa. and hunting our animals.We don't like out of staters here in Pa.Sorry but that is the truth.To many bad apples come here and shoot and break all the laws and go back home where they are pretty much safe from commiting wildlife crimes in our state and being prosecutedfrom the law.This is just like a security deposit if you all get caught doing something wrong here.We won't come get you in your state,But we got your fine money upfront anyway.
Yea it seams a bit steep it was just a number there sport2. For you 349$ Anyone else out of state 200 or 225$. Seriously, We are not goanna let you come here pay the same as resident just to hunt and not pay taxes on houses or state taxes.You goanna let me come hunt your state for the same fee just to hunt without supporting your states income other than just hunt there?Not a chance.Residents get discounts just for being a resident and supporting the economy all year round,Not just during hunting season.