Fines way too low
 

Check out this article from the PGC website. I think the fines they hand down for these poachers is way too low for the crimes. I say triple the fines and give half of it back to the PGC for some of their shortfalls.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?Q=170726&A=11

Pennsylvania Game Commission - State Wildlife Management Agency




2006 Press Releases
SearchPennsylvania Game Commission - State Wildlife Management Agency HomePrintable VersioneMail
Release #160-06


FIVE NONRESIDENT POACHERS APPREHENDED IN CRAWFORD COUNTY

FRANKLIN - On Nov. 30, an anonymous tip from a concerned citizen led Pennsylvania Game Commission Wildlife Conservation Officer Mario Piccirilli to a farm along Turkey Track Road in Conneautville, Crawford County. The information WCO Piccirilli received indicated that five non-resident hunters were illegally shooting deer.

A search of the area resulted in nine illegal deer being confiscated and five individuals being charged with 15 counts of Game and Wildlife Code violations. Their fines totaled $7,500, plus court costs. The individuals were taken into custody and arraigned before District Justice Lincoln Zilhaver and, after failing to post bond, were committed to the Crawford County Jail.

On Dec. 1, the defendants posted bond and pled guilty to all charges at District Justice Rita Marwoods' office in Linesville.

"This was a case of individuals shooting whatever they pleased without regard to seasons or proper license and tagging requirements," WCO Piccirilli stated. "I hope citizens realize how important timely information is to officers investigating and prosecuting these violators. One phone call set this case in motion. Without a concerned citizen these violations would most likely have gone undetected."

WCO Piccirilli was assisted by Deputy WCOs Larry Hergenroeder and John Ittel, Erie County WCO Michael Wojtecki, Crawford County Land Management Group Supervisor Jerry Bish and Northwest Region Director Keith Harbaugh.

The defendants and their penalties are:

Bryan Scott Patterson, age 34, of Madisonville, Tennessee, pled guilty to two counts of unlawful taking or possession of game or wildlife and one charge of Unlawful killing or taking of big game, and fined $1,500 plus court costs;

Steven Raymond Belk, age 42, of Athens, Tennessee, pled guilty to two counts of unlawful taking or possession of game or wildlife and one charge of unlawful killing or taking of big game, and fined $1,500 plus court costs;

Jeffrey Pernel Millsaps, age 30, of Madisonville, Tennessee, pled guilty to two counts of unlawful taking or possession of game or wildlife and one charge of unlawful killing or taking of big game, and fined fine $1,500 plus court costs;

Clifford Lee Williams Jr., age 34, of Madisonville, Tennessee, pled guilty to three counts of unlawful taking or possession of game or wildlife and one count of unlawful killing or taking of big game, and fined $2,000 plus court costs; and

Kevin Michael Rushing, age 27, of Oskaloosa, Iowa, pled guilty to one count of unlawful taking or possession of game or wildlife and one charge of unlawful killing or taking of big game, and fined $1,000 plus court costs.

Created in 1895 as an independent state agency, the Game Commission is responsible for conserving and managing all wild birds and mammals in the Commonwealth, establishing hunting seasons and bag limits, enforcing hunting and trapping laws, and managing habitat on the 1.4 million acres of State Game Lands it has purchased over the years with hunting and furtaking license dollars to safeguard wildlife habitat. The agency also conducts numerous wildlife conservation programs for schools, civic organizations and sportsmen's clubs.

The Game Commission does not receive any general state taxpayer dollars for its annual operating budget. The agency is funded by license sales revenues; the state's share of the federal Pittman-Robertson program, which is an excise tax collected through the sale of sporting arms and ammunition; and monies from the sale of oil, gas, coal, timber and minerals derived from State Game Lands.

RE: Fines way too low
 

Not enough info to say if the fine was appropriate or not.If they didn't leave them go to waiste and had them skinned to eat.I say the fine was to high.If they shot them and let them lay.Then I think it was appropriate.If they was shooting trophy size bucks and selling them,Then yes.the fine should of been trippled even multiplied by 10.

RE: Fines way too low
 

What the heck does it matter if they killed them and skinned them or left them lay ILLEGAL KILLING is ILLEGAL KILLING. So if they were gonna eat their ILLEGALLY taken deer the fine should be lower than if they weren't going to eat them. I just don't get your logic. If it is a trophy they should pay 10 times the amount, but if it wasn't a trophy( maybe a button buck)and the were gonna eat it the fine is too high? How much should they pay? Or is the price of their tags enough?

RE: Fines way too low
 

If they was trophy and selling them. You think all fines should be the same?Ok,sounds good.I will go out kill a trophy deer,Sell it for 25 to 30k and pay a 3 times amount you say,About 3k in a fine.No big deal.I still made a profit 22 to 27k off that deer.You want the same price for different situations.There is a big difference between the 3 mentioned.

RE: Fines way too low
 

[quote][If they was trophy and selling them. You think all fines should be the same?Ok,sounds good.I will go out kill a trophy deer,Sell it for 25 to 30k and pay a 3 times amount you say,About 3k in a fine.No big deal.I still made a profit 22 to 27k off that deer.You want the same price for different situations.There is a big difference between the 3 mentioned/quote]

First of all you have quite the imagination. 25 to 30,000.00 for a Pennsylvania Whitetail ?You could hunt anywhere in the country for that kind of money probably10 years in a row and kill alot of trophies.You can buya mounton ebay alot cheaper. That's funny! I never said all fines should be the same I said the fines for their crimes were too low, you added the different scenarios with your first post.Listen I'm honored that you find the need to follow me around hunting netand respond to my posts, but please try to bring a little more to the discussion. And spell check would help to.

RE: Fines way too low
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: TRYKONOISSEUR

Out of state hunters pay 500$ just for a mangy looking buck to take home to show their wifes that they been hunting.We are not talking about a mounted deer head,We are talking about a full body dead dear.And yes they will pay it for a trophy size deer.Everyone that hunts or pretends to huntare not poor.You all so don't think that some make huge bits with friends back home on hunting?You are wrong if you think that all so.

I believe we are on here at the same time and we have been posting on the same topics here.If you think I am following you around,You really need to think a little smarter to realize this.

RE: Fines way too low
 

All I can say to this is WOW! I'm at a loss for words.

RE: Fines way too low
 

I agree. Unless I missed something, all it says is "15 counts of Game and Wildlife Code violations" and for each individual "unlawful killing or taking of big game". Without more specifics we can only speculate as to what exactly they did wrong.

RE: Fines way too low
 

I agree also.There should be different fines for situation each of its own. There's just not enough information to say if it was or wasn'tenough.I have alsoread that people do pay over 100,000 for trophy animals. I read an article about illegal poachers in all states selling game animals (especially deer) for an average of 50,000.
Many of them was during big game season so they could take the animal home and brag to their friends. These type of people that brag alot usually have the big bucks to buy an animal to back their stories up.

RE: Fines way too low
 

Of course you do! I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out they killed deer illegally. They broke laws. Ok lets just base it on what we do know.....

From the article: It looks to me that each confiscated deer amounted to a 500.00 charge. Why do so many hunters defend the actions of others who knowingly break game laws? To me a 500.00 fine for poaching a deer is too low. Not enough of a deterent.

I'd like to read that article.
Although I'm not buying the fact that these people would choose PA tohunt (poach)for TROPHY ANIMALS. lets look at what your saying. Do you expect me to believe that some guy is sitting around Crawford County Pa. waiting for his poacher to call with the goods? Come on you guys are reaching on this and going to try to defend law breakers? I can hear the conversation now. " Hey Joe! ...Yeah! It's me poacher Jim!...What do you got for me?... Hey I bagged a nice 10 point with a 20 inch spread... Awesome! How Much?... I'll have to have 50,000 dollars for it...Ok no problem...OH yeah Joe!.... Yes?... That will be cash only... OK no problem I have it in my glove compartent.... OK see ya tonight...


Sorry guys I just don't see much of that going on with "PA TROPHIES"

Regardless in my opinion 500.00 for illegally killing a deer isn't enough.

RE: Fines way too low
 

Well that couldn't be more obvious! The article says that much and as plane as day. We all know that but we also know there is nothing illegal about killing a deer as long as it's done in a manner consistent with law so there was something these guys did or maybe didn't do that made their kills illegal. What was it? We don't know. What were the specific violations? We don't know. Did they have a license? Were they taken out of season? Did they use an illegal weapon? Did they have the right tags? Were they shot after hours? Are they guilty of one of these? All of these? We don't know, we don't know, we don't know. All we know is that they took the deer illegally. We don't know why it was illegal and without that information I couldn't pass reasonable judgement as to how appropriate the fine was. Like I said, the specifics matter!

RE: Fines way too low
 

I understand what your saying Sylvan, but in any of your questions above is 500.00 per deer reasonable to you? Maybe I'm just carrying on about this because you can get a 500.00 fine for throwing a cookie wrapper on the ground, and illegally killing whitetails is a little more important a subject to me. Not that I think littering is OK. Far from.

RE: Fines way too low
 

I would still want more details even if I knew what the specific violation was (which we don't). But because you asked and it's just specultaion, let's take one. Shooting the deer after legal hours. O.K. was it just a minute or two aftersunset or before sunrise, something that's done ALL the time, orwas thehuntersystematically hunting in the wee hours by moonlight in blatant disregard of the law. IMO, in the former 500 is way too much and the latter, way too little.

How about another. Not having the right tag. Was it a violation because the hunter shot a doe and didn't even possess a doe tag (again a blatant disregard for the law) or was it because he thought the spikes were 3" long making it a legal buck but it turns out the longest was only 2 7/8" which technically would require a doe tag. Again imo it matters. In one example the 500 is too little, the other too much.

I'm sure anybody with a little imagination can think of many examples where the circumstances arounda violation would make a big diferrence in the severity ofa reasonablepunishment. But the article gives us no circumstances, no details, it just tells us that they broke the law. What should the fine be for breaking the law?

RE: Fines way too low
 

Pulllllllleeeeeeaase! 15 Counts !!! What do you have to know? These guys are mutts. I can't say about monetary damage these $cum should pay , the ability to pay has to enter into it at some point.
These are not someone that has a family that is having a hard time to make ends meet and need to put food on the table! These a $cumbags plain and simple. IMHO poachers like these should have had thier firearms and vehicles confiscated and thier right to bear arms revoked. Hunting privledges revoked for the entire U.S. also. These guys are CRIMINALS ,lets stop trying to make excuses and rationalize thier behavior. They should be treated like any other thug that steals. They are stealing from all other law abiding people and even worst asting all other hunters in a bad light.

RE: Fines way too low
 

Well that was the question and the whole point of the thread. I responded to it, you didn't. You're just ranting.

I agree and the way we treat a thief is to considerall the evidence associated with what they did and punish them accordingly. We don't and shouldn'tpunish a shop lifter the same as we do an armed bank robber.We don't say these2 people stole so they are both going to jail for 20 years. The way they commited the act ofstealing matters to a reasonable person. A reasonable person would want to know all the facts and then determine a punishment accordingly.

Look, I agree these guys are low lifes. The question is, how low are they? Without more information, Icouldn't put a $ value on it.

RE: Fines way too low
 

Your splitting hairs! You don't honestly beleive that all 5 of these guys shot 2 deer each a little after shooting hours. Come on Sylvan your alot smarter than that.


Not having the right tag is a serious violation asfar asI'm concerned. 500.00 too little. And the 3 inch rule in Pa has been dead since 2000 or 2001 Must have 3 points to on side or in some other areas 4 points to a side.

Enough to ensure people never do it again or never try it in the first place.

RE: Fines way too low
 

Good point Sylvan in your explaination, your right we need more info. However, with the info we do have, to receive "only" a $1500.00 fine per an hunter as you explain, may be because all 5 "non-resident" hunters shot the 9 deers 1 minute after shooting hours, "out of season" and that they could not determine the size of the antlers on these deers (well because it was after hours by a minute and too dark for them to identify, in which any good upstanding hunter would not have fired, JIMO)and forgot to properly tag them also seems a strech as well.

For a hunter, not to mention 5 hunters,to violate all these laws in one outing should be fined alot more in my opinion and have any hunting licenses revoked for life. Not to mention that their rifles, gear, vehicles should have been confiscated as well, if they didn't, just like they do with indivuduals that have possession of illegal narcotics.

RE: Fines way too low
 

You sound like peta. These are animals. Not people. Next thing you know people will be put in jail for this. This is what hits a nerve on me. People treating animals as though they have more rights than humans. Pathetic at the least. Let me look for a membership sight forpeta and you can sign up with them. Just ridiculous. Taking away the second ammend for an animal violation. Are you sure your an American? Talk about rational. Your pathetic and anyone else who thinks their arms should be confiscated for killing animals. Pathetic excuse for an American at the least. Taking their arms. I am sure they couldn't get another one. What a joke.

RE: Fines way too low
 

I gavesome examples of how the same violation can warrant different penalties. Of course I don't believe all 5 of these guys did this.I have no clue as to what exactly they did. Neither does anybody else. That's the point. Comon TRYKONOISSEUR you're smarter than that!

RE: Fines way too low
 

3" or3 or 4 points on a side is irrelevant. My example was to compare the guy who knowingly shoots a doe without a doe tag which is a blatant violation vs. the guy who thinks he shot a legal buck but it turns out it wasn't quite legal. Both are cases of killing a deer without the proper tag but I can't believe any reasonble person would say the fine should be the same for both.

Do you really think somebody should be fined $500 for shooting a 5 point?What ifit had 6 but the 6th point was only 7/8" making it legally a 5 point. Again $500. For heavens sake man why not just execute him? I'd say $50 tops!

What the heck would you do with the guy who shoots a single doe without a tag. Torture him to death?

RE: Fines way too low
 

That's original!

RE: Fines way too low
 

O.K. if you think so. It wasintended to besarcastic!

RE: Fines way too low
 

Your so touchy when someone questions your posts. Try not being so serious when someone doesn't agree totally with you. I said you made a valid point, but with what we do know about these guys leaving assumptions out of it. The fines are too low.

RE: Fines way too low
 

Fair enough. IMO you have to make a lot of assumptions to judge whether or not the fine was appropriate. You seem to believe you have enough info. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

RE: Fines way too low
 

Kengston, these guys are sheding such a bad light for alllaw abidinghunters.The suggestion is that if a hunter chooses, like these "pathetic" excusefor hunters or others like them decide to violate set laws, then yes, take away their hunting previlages, the firearms they have on them and the vehicle they used or where going to used in the transport of these illegally harvested deer. No one has stated the deer have more rights, just that the hunters broke laws in obtaining these deer.I agree we shouldn'ttake away their second amendment rights to bear arms,but yes toconfiscating the ones that used in the act of the crime.

Fines need to be large enough to try and discourge poachers.Don't think of it as the deer have more rights, but that certain "so-called" hunters choose their fate when they commit such combined criminal acts.

RE: Fines way too low
 

Guys, Guys, Guys!!!

I think we should be more concerned with where these "Out of Staters" found all these deer in Pennsylvania.

;)

RE: Fines way too low