Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Late start to the morning...the young hunter I am mentoring arrived 25 minutes late to my driveway. As we get to the hunting grounds, I made a late-game call to have him leave his climber since we were chasing the sunrise at 10 minutes after6 as we headed in.

Instead of hunting two different woodlots roughly 150 yards apart, I have him sit in the stand I was planning on, and I sit in what is typically my opening day shotgun stand. It's a real open stand in the center of the woodlot, which is only 20 acres in size. I wasn't happy about it since I knew shooting a bowwould be tough. Anyway, I send him up his stand, which is only 60 yards away from my standat my 7 o'clock position off a small wheeler trail. When I turn sideways, I can see him in his stand. I wasn't fond of it, but that was our only option at this time.

The wind was perfect for us though.

7:30 I notice a monstrous four point that I've seen up close and personal 3 or 4 times this season. After considerable thought, I've concluded this deer is a 3.5 yr old. He's perfectly set up for a shot...with my shotgun that is, 60 yards directly in front of me. He beds down and I lock eyes on a doe that beds down within twenty yards of me, with an open view of myself. She forces me to enjoy one of those long periods of time where you can't breathe wrong or she'll notice.

I hear steps a few minutes later, and after managing a slight move of my head, I spy a small yearling doe behind me. I decide to pass as I've already got my doe, plus she is in between me and my protege (so-to-speak). I made the right choice as I watch her work her way through to him. He stood up, drew like he knew what he was doing, and shot. I couldn't see the impact, but it sounded as if he hit branches before hand.

At that moment the doe bedded by me got up, and moved. Two more bucks joined in. A spike and a basket rack 8, or so I thought. After a bit of walking amongst each other, the bucks seperated a bit, and the basket rack buck comes into my open area in front of me. I was forced to move if I wanted to shoot, and luckily my timing was good, as I managed to stand up and draw in one motion as the buck was behind a very small tree. The doe was also hidden from my view, thankfully.

I thought this buck was going to close the gap, but he decided to follow after the doe, and walked across my lane at 25 yards, and jumped a partially downed limb. As soon as he hit the ground, I had to shoot. He stopped for a split second, and I released with a strong confidence for a 30 yard shot, which is out of my norm. I typically am a strong proponent of 25 and under. However, most of my stands rarely get a wide-open pie plate to hit at 30 yards, and I do it all summer.

My shot was tv-worthy, slamming into him in the money hole, broadside with a very slight quartering away. Arrow jams in, and he takes off. I got down a half hour later to get the kid. He couldn't see the results of the his shot, but as I hit the trail to his stand I was met with absolutely massive blood signs. I laughed because I was happy since we both got deer on the same morning only 1/2 hr apart, and only 60 yards apart. It would be his first deer ever.

As he meets me, he looks over, and spots his doe. She promptly got up and walked away. She was clearly hurting, tail down, and couldn't outrun a snail at her fastest pace. I back him out, and we head in the opposite direction to find my buck. He wasn't hard to find.

Both lungs and a pass thru in the heart to the opposite shoulder did quick work, although he went sixty yards spraying blood like a fountain. As I got closer, he had split brow tines, and ended up with 11 scorable points. I must say it is the smallest one ever...

Now, here's the down part. We couldn't find the protege's doe. She bled equally as much as my buck did at half the body weight. I couldn't believe it, we had great sign and she closed up. I'm completely positive this deer is down, and we can't find her. We spent all day with 6 people looking for this doe, with no luck. He is so frustrated, and sad at the same time. She took a hedge row and she stepped out into a just cut corn field, with ruts you could lay down and be hidden in. Not fun....

I'm heading out early a.m. to look for it againbefore much of the rain hits. I was more excited to see him get his doe than I was for my buck, and it really dampened my day. Anyway long story ends with pics...

Protege with buck:


Me with buck:


Close-up of rack points...odd rack overall.

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

hmm that deer is either very young with awsome genes and had some insane potential, or is an old deer with awful genes.

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

It's a great thing that you are doing-helping the youngster along. Nice deer too

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Quite honestly, I don't care either way. It is a trophy to ME. I've always wanted to harvest a non-typical type of rack, and this guy fit the bill. With only a week left of bow, it was time to make a move. I'm pleased with it.

Don't get overly caught upwithjust genes. There are many, many more factors in antler growth outside of genes. Birth date, nutrition, injury, etc. Just because a buck has the genes for a good rack does NOT mean he will display them. Environmental conditions willcompete withgenes 100% of the time, unless prime conditions can be had.

I haven't looked at teeth, buthe appearsto bea 2.5, or a slight chance for a 3.5 y/o. From my experience, he typically fills the bill of a 2.5 y/o in my neighborhood. He's certainly not very young, and definitly not very old. He's actually quite average in age.

This is a normal 3.5 on my hunting grounds:

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Congrats on getting the buck, best of luck locating the doe.

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Congrats first.
I don't understand why you guys didn't chase down the doe to start with. If she couldn't outrun a snail, you should have gone after her immediately and put another in her. I bet she circled around and bedded down on the opposite side of your stands and died.
Oh well. hindsight is 20/20 they say.

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Congratulations on the buck... In our area (NYS) we are lucky to get a 2.5 year old with all the hunting preasure. My goal is always a 8 point or bigger no matter the size of the rack... I would have shot him.

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Heck ya - nice buck Phade- Congrats

The bulge on the one antler is really neat.

Hope you fing the doe too - Its a bit warm though - Good luck.

FH

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

its weird, its like looking at a 5.5 year old monster with his rack shricken.

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

My thoughts on age are that he is just a 1.5 year old buck. His hind quarters are defined and thin. He has a short body. His ears are oval like that of a young buck. Also, look at the pedicels. They scream 1.5 years old. He was probably born really early in the year, had no siblings and got plenty of good food in his life. Genetics are obviously good too. Many things dictate how far along a 1.5 year old buck will be in development. In my bowhunting area, it is quite common for 1.5 year olds to have 8 or more points.
After all, the Hanson buck, the world record whitetail, was only 3.5 years old.
I'm not denigrating you or your buck, just being honest.

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Congrats on the buck and taking a youth on a hunt with you, even if it wasn't the best circumstance at the beginning, you stuck with it. I'm in Tioga County NY near Newark Valley and the deer here are small as well. This bow season I have seen a nice 8 and 6 pointer, one 7 pointer and a moster 10 that had me trembling. By looking at the deer, I also agree that it's a 1.5 year old deer, but the teeth will help you in your age classification. I have not had the chance to shot a buck that was 8 points or bigger, nor have I ever shot a buck since I just started hunting the last 2 years, going on my third this year. Plenty of opportunities for 4 through 7, but passed hoping for a chance of a bigger and plus I like to think I practice QDM, but sometimes at the moment of truth, if I saw that 11 pointer, I would have made the shot as well. Could the buck you shot have been bigger next year or following, well the teeth will hopfully tell you, but for now, what a nice unique buck you have to be proud of and having the expirence shared with a youth is also very rewarding. Again, congrats!:)

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

1.5 yo buck aged by teeth (me and DEC region 8 bio).It wasweighed, and it was 155-7 lbs the next morning.

We lost the doe.I backed out because she got up and was moving without falling. Yeah, she was moving slow, but she was consistently moving without any interruption. At the spot of the trail, we had great blood, indicating she was fatally wounded. She was 50 yards due E in the woodlot when she bumped. Backing out, and giving her the chance to bed for good was the best option instead of running through the woods, branches, etc.attempting to catch up to her and managing a clear shot. I'm in the process of teaching a younger hunter how to do things right, and making a call like that would have only confused him as to the "normal' way you give a deer time to expire before heading after it. With 6 people wecircle searched the woodlot, which is sub-20 acres. She was well into the hedgerow before losing the trail, somewhat away from the woodlot, and she had been walking straight for quite some distance without any circling back indications.

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

I thought she could barely walk from the way you said it. Sorry things didn't work perfectly but I think your protege' learned some good lessons anyway. On Friday, my Dad hit a big buck in the shoulder blade. The arrow failed to penetrate and fell out. We tracked that deer almost a mile. The blood trail petered out to a small drop here and there. We were onour hands and knees sometimes. The buck came in behind him, hot on a doe. He said the arrow ticked a limb on it's way to the deer. The buck didn't move when the arrow hit it. It stayed on the doe.

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Somehow I got the "Hands and Knees" job looking after this doe. He got to walk the edges, and corn fields.

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Nice deer and great job with the mentoring!

Your buck is the classic example of my arguement that points based AR would serve no value in much of NY. A great deer regardless of age that makes for fond memories.

Steve

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Hey congrats I think its awesome

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Using this example against the AR argument would not be exactly scientific. Although it is true that 1.5 year old bucks with 8 points is not uncommon, most 1.5 year old bucks will carry racks ranging from spikes to 6 points. From my many years of hunting experience, I know this to be fact. Using the odds, AR will protect the majority of 1.5 year old bucks.

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

they know its not true for every single deer but 90 percent of the time the 3 point restriction does work for young deer, and its definitley working so far.

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Congrats. And never call it a "small" rack... call it a "tight" rack!

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

I said in much of NY.


.

My experiance and opinions are not valid but yours are?:D

Studies in Central NY show 60% of 1 1/2 are 3 pts or better -thereforeTARGETING and NOT protecting young bucks with points based AR.

Please show me the sources (in a new thread) supporting your claim - see my post above about CNY.


I will not further derail Phades thread here - once again great job on a fine deer and mentoring!

Steve

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Touche'!
Interesting point there.
I don't care to get combative about this, really.
What percentage are 3 points or less?
I bet the number is greater than 60%.
I was thinking of AR of 4 points or more on a side.
That's the way it is where I hunt in PA.
Sorry if I goofed on that comparison if the AR in NY is 3 points.

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Just as an aside, I appreciate the attempt to move it to a new thread.

Inmy region, and even more specifically my WMU has roughly 50% of 1.5 yo bucks with 6-8 points. Here the only way AR would work biologically is via width, which this guy would not have met. The state's central DEC biologist quoted that to me when I was writing my feature article on A/R in NY. The basic 3 per side rule could work in areas that they are being implemented in now for advancing the 80% of the1.5 age class to 2.5 yo. However, that's beyond the scope in my part of the state where it would not work, plus you got the whole ethics and trophy questions that leave much more discussion to be held before making a state-wide decision.

Now- I found the kid's deer...a button buck as I thought it was whenI saw it walking towards his stand as he shot. It's his first deer, so I have no qualms about it being a bb whatsoever. While the meat is no good, it is aconsolation that I found it. I'll take pics for him, and probablytake off the Buttons after moving it from the woodlot. It circled away from us incidentally, not back. I just happened to take a different walk in than normal, and there he was in a drainage ditch of the corn field.

RE: Up and Down day...and the world's smallest 11 pointer...Long!
 

Anytime AR comes up in a thread, you run the risk of a highjacking.:D
In PA, Where the 3 point AR won't work, we have 4 point AR. That's where I goofed up. I'm still wondering what percentage of 1.5 year old bucks have 3 points or less. In my area I believe it isin excess of80%, if my memory is correct. This fits in with my observations from the last 28 years of hunting. This would leave almost 20% of 1.5 year old bucks that carry 4 or more per side, i.e. your nice 1.5 year old 11 pointer.

Glad you found the BB. I know it's just consolation at this point. A good lesson nonetheless. It is interesting to see the path that a mortally wounded deer takes. Sometimes it is so simple that it embarasses the hunter, that he didn't think of it. I knew a guy that lost a deer that never even travelled out of sight of his stand. It went in a creekbed and bedded under a fallen log. We found it after it was too late.