LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

From The Morning Call
July 26, 2006

Court lets Unified Sportsmen take their best shot
The statewide group has legal standing to sue Game Commission.

By Christian Berg
Of The Morning Call

Commonwealth Court has upheld a statewide hunting group's right to sue the Pennsylvania Game Commission over deer management — a decision being hailed by some as a major victory for sportsmen.

The lawsuit that sparked the ruling was filed last year by the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania, which claims the commission is intentionally decimating the state's whitetail herd with no scientific basis for its policies.

Although the merits of that argument have yet to be considered, Unified officials are celebrating the court's recognition that sportsmen have ''standing,'' which is the legal right to challenge the commission on hunting-related matters.

''This in itself is a major victory for sportsmen,'' Unified Chairman Gregory Levengood said in a news release.

Levengood also called Judge Robert Simpson's July 20 ruling a ''major step in the USP's efforts to bring accountability to the Game Commission's deer management plan.''

Game Commission officials, however, viewed the court's ruling much differently and expressed confidence that Unified's case will eventually be defeated.

''In my opinion, it's only prolonging the inevitable that this is going to get tossed out,'' said Commissioner Gregory Isabella of Philadelphia.

Commission President Thomas Boop, a lawyer from Northumberland County, said just because the court recognized Unified's right to pursue its case, that doesn't mean the group's claims are true.

''It's going to proceed on the merits [of their case], and I think ultimately it will be determined that the commission does use scientific methods to make these decisions,'' Boop said. ''At the end of the day, the commission will prevail.''

Unified filed its lawsuit against the commission last August. In addition the commission and individual commissioners, the state Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, DCNR Secretary Michael DiBerardinis and Gov. Ed Rendell were named as defendants.

Unified claims the commission and DCNR have conspired to drastically reduce deer numbers for the benefit of the state's $5 billion timber industry. By so doing, Unified claims, the commission has violated statutory and constitutional requirements to manage wildlife for the benefit of all citizens and provide adequate hunting opportunities to sportsmen.

Unified, which claims 40,000 members, also contends the commission has never conducted a reliable census of Pennsylvania's deer population and therefore lacks the data needed to make management decisions.

Unified said deer-management policies implemented by the commission in recent years — such as a concurrent firearms season for bucks and does, special seasons for antlerless deer and a dramatic increase in the number of antlerless deer-hunting licenses — have already slashed the deer population from an estimated 1.5 million six years ago to less than half that today.

Unified's suit asks the court to force commission and DCNR officials to release all information used to formulate deer management policies and make state employees available for depositions where they can be questioned about the rationale for their decisions.

The state, which is being represented by the attorney general's office, argued that Unified's suit should be thrown out because the commission has sole authority and ownership of Pennsylvania's deer herd. Therefore, the state argued, hunters have no standing from which to bring a legal challenge.

However, Simpson noted in his 21-page opinion that the state Game Code specifically requires the commission to serve the interest of sportsmen by providing adequate hunting and trapping opportunities. Simpson also cited a U.S. Supreme Court case that recognized the desire to use or observe an animal species as a basis for legal standing.

Unified's lawyer, Don Bailey of Harrisburg, said the court's decision to grant Unified standing sets a legal precedent that can be utilized by sportsmen's groups throughout Pennsylvania.

''If the court said there was no standing,…groups like Unified would never be able to participate in the way they need to be able to participate,'' Bailey said. ''We would have a door closed to us probably forever.''

Although Simpson sided with Unified on the issue of standing, he granted the state's request to dismiss DCNR, DiBerardinis and Rendell as defendants because they have no mandatory legal duties regarding deer management.

Simpson also expressed numerous concerns about the nature of relief sought by Unified and gave the group 30 days to amend its pleading. Simpson said the relief requested by Unified — access to commission records and staff — do not appear directly related to the agency's alleged failure to protect and preserve game, serve the interests of sportsmen and provide adequate hunting opportunities.

''Based on the ambiguous nature of Sportsmen's pleading, it is not possible to discern a legal theory to support the relief requested,'' Simpson wrote.

Despite that, Simpson said there are potential legal grounds for Unified to seek relief. So, the court decided to grant a 30-day extension for amendments rather than dismiss the lawsuit.

Bailey said he plans to meet with Unified officials and have a revised complaint filed with the court prior to the Aug. 19 deadline.

[email protected]

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Chris starts out by declaring that Judge Simpson "gave sportsmen standing", although Atty. Bailey correctly points out later in the article that the judge granted Unified (Sportsmen) standing. Everywhere in the judge'sissued opinion, Simpson refers to the word sportsmen with a capital S, so itmay beunclear if he meant Unified Sportsmen or sportsmen in general.

Although Simpson did clarify that sportsmen do have an interest, as far as the PGC being required to provide adequate hunting and trapping opportunities. Best wishes to Judge Simpson if he can define "adequate" to the satisfaction of all ofPennsylvania's hunters.

After months of false starts, requests for continuances and other stumbles, the judge has finally ruled on some of the issues (after having refused afurther USP motion for venue changes)and allowed USP to have one more chance to file a coherent lawsuit.

Let's roll indeed. Reminds me of a chant one might hear at an Auburn home game when 'Bama is the visting team: Round the rim and down the hole, roll Tide roll.

[8D]


[quote]Simpson also expressed numerous concerns about the nature of relief sought by Unified and gave the group 30 days to amend its pleading. Simpson said the relief requested by Unified — access to commission records and staff — do not appear directly related to the agency's alleged failure to protect and preserve game, serve the interests of sportsmen and provide adequate hunting opportunities.

''Based on the ambiguous nature of Sportsmen's pleading, it is not possible to discern a legal theory to support the relief requested,'' Simpson wrote.

Despite that, Simpson said there are potential legal grounds for Unified to seek relief. So, the court decided to grant a 30-day extension for amendments rather than dismiss the lawsuit.

Bailey said he plans to meet with Unified officials and have a revised complaint filed with the court prior to the Aug. 19 deadline.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

It's obvious that the judge wants to hear more. He appears interested in what the USP has to present. He clearly was not interested in what the PGC had to present and rejected them. That in itself says a lot.

I distincty remember on another forum ("Wolf Pile") where Joe Neville and other visionaries predicted that the case would never get this far.
My guess is that there are a whole lot of recipes for Crow being exchanged by "Wolf Pile" members and the PGC.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

If you believe that will happen, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Careful or he'llrepeat that"Let go of the hate" spiel again. Over the years I've noticed it doesn't apply to their side of the haggle, only those that disagree with them.

;)

The feller that made the comment about PFSC and others working with the USP, should know if doesn't already,that the opportunity has been extended on several occasions, but USP has seldom been interested in working with anyone but their attorney or their"I am not a member" mouthpiece/Svengali.

Ain't over until it's over, so neither side should be counting their chickens at this point. Another judge could've just as easily dismissed the suit or accepted it for ajudicationas-presented, without giving USP yet another whack at the pinata. HTH anyone can gloat about winning anything when two thirds of their targeted entities have been dropped, escapes my notice.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

I don't know that any organization would want to work with a group with this kind of mindset...

March-03

Our (Penn Fed)official position is unchanged. The PGC reports the herd has grown 20% and deer are more overbaundant than ever. Members should work with the PGC and not against them in helping to reduce the herd everywhere.

Take advantage of the DMAP program, support the early rifle does season when proposed. And use the tags available to harvest as many doe as you can. We suported Dr. Alt the last 5 years and will continue to. Our biologists have hsown that deer cannot be overharvested, they are resiliant and always bounce back. So our postion has not changed, our best hunting is ahead of us.



"HTH anyone can gloat about winning anything when two thirds of their targeted entities have been dropped, escapes my notice"

You may have a point there, but....the one entitie that really counted stuck! And that is very significant.

Must be the judge sees something your tired old eyes can't.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

"Deerfly" check your PM.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

"DougF" you must be kidding. I'm sorry, but I must take exception with your latest comment. The PGC still hasn't a clue as to how many deer are out there. They haven't a clue as to how many we killed. This particular aspect has been a joke for decades because they refuse to improve their methods of accounting. They don't even have a 1-800 number to call in a kill for recording. Their recording system is antiquated , to say the least.

The FLIR (flyover) was a joke. They did that in the dead of winter so they could visibly see the animals. Deer will herd up on sunny slopes in very cold winter in large numbers This can be dacieving and give you a false impression as to deer movement and numbers.

Your sure you don't work for or are affiliated with the agency in some shape or form?

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

My guess is "Doug" is probaly consulting with Cal DuBrock to obtain an answer to your question.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

I'll save him the trouble:

[quote]
Bucks County Courrier Times

Deer management growing

By: CHRIS ENGLISH (Fri, Feb/03/2006)
(snip)
"In many urbanized areas, the deer population has become a problem," said Jerry Feaser, a spokesman for the Pennsylvania Game Commission. "Wherever you have development, it obviously impacts deer movements and deer access. One of the problems in urbanized areas is that it's difficult to get hunters access to hunt lands."

Feaser said the commission doesn't have an estimate of the deer population in the state or in any county, but is working on one. Anything people can do to safely and legally minimize property damage from wildlife is good, he said.
[/quote]

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

The reason that they don't rely on estimates is because 60% of the hunters are too lazy to send in a self-addressed,postage paid post card.Put the blame where it really belongs,on the hunters too lazy to comply with a simple request.

The FLIR that was done has too be done in winter because that's when the foliage is off the trees.Every area DCNR surveyed showed an average count for the entirearea surveyed.None of those areas showed excessive deer populations.Even the area that showed a concentration of 126 dpsm only averaged out to 16 dpsm.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

The title of this thread is sadly Ironic.

We all know where the saying "lets roll" was made famous. The similarity is that USP could take themselves and the PGC into a finacial tailspin much like the passenegers on flight 93 did to their plane. The passengers perished with the terrorists and boththe PGC and USP risk mutual destructionwiththis lawsuit and all the miguided poltical pressure USP has brought to bear.

The difference is that the flight 93 guys sacrificed themselves to save untold numbers from the terrorists. That makes them heroes. If the USP takes the PGC to a fiery financial crash, they will likely be delivering deer management to Politicians and the DCNR. Thats makes them the villains.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

BTBowhunter, I have been using lets roll for over 50 yrs. I didn't even give 911 a thaught when I started this thread, sorry guys.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

What the heck are you talking about?I never even mentiond "911'.

Personally,I'm glad the case will be heard.It will most likely be grounds for a heap of comic relief.

Let go of what hate?You're the one that's constantlytrying to demoralize the very agency that provides Pa hunters with some of the best opportunities in this country.I'm sorry you can't get past the hate to see that.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Any truth to therumor that an ambulance without a working back-up alarm accidentlyknocked Atty. Bailey down, preventing him from filing another lawsuit within the 30 day window-as prescribed by Judge Simpson'sprevious ruling?

Was yet another extension requested? What would that make now, three or four of them? I've lost track.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Why not direct your questions to Joe Neville. He should have all the up to date information.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Last time I checked, Neville wasn't suing anyone. Figuredyou'd be right on top of the current status onthis one, as a USP director?

I likehearing things right from the source, not second-handed.:)

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

the PGC is a state agency, right?
and this USP is a group of pennsylvania hunters, right?

so pennsylvania is suing itself...right?

just checking.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Like I said Pa. is gone!!!!! Why bother

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Where did it go? I was in PA a minute ago. Where am I now?[&o]

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

"What position do you hold in any sportsmen's organization? Or are you one of those who simply stand on the side lines and comment on the doings of othersrather than become involved and contribute."

*************************************************
When I answeredyour samequestion several years agoon another site, you pronounced me to be a mere janitor. I'll answer it again, although it's doubtful your judgement has changed since then:



20 years, director, sportsmen's club with over 1000 paid/honorary memberships (nearly double that including family members);Ranges/Buildings/Grounds/Equipment director at same club; NRA rifle safety instructor;County delegate, PFSC for the past coupla years; Judgeweekly club block shoots, 20+ years; Attended all but one PGC meeting in the past 6or 7years, many PGCmeetingsprior to that.

Helped withyouth field days; mopped a few floors, parked a few cars,cleaned up a few messes, repaired a few tractors, toilets and water systems, etc.

Justthe usual stuff that someone alwayshas to do, because there's alwayssomeone else who decided they were fartoo important to do them.

[8D]

(Oops,embarrassedaboutomittingthe 13 years on local Friends of the NRA banquet committee,or thenumerous days spent volunteering at the NRA booth,during the Eastern Sports and Outdoors show at the Farmshow complex).

Man, I ain't bragged that much in years, sorry.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

So, since PA is gone deerfly, where do you live now? By whatever name, you are surely a one trick pony.
"What position do you hold in any sportsmen's organization? Or are you one of those who simply stand on the side lines and comment on the doings of othersrather than become involved and contribute."

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Wouldn't it be great if all of those who post on this forum were to be only minimally involved in a sportsmen's organization. Asking if your involved is a very legitimate question and one which we should all ask ourselves along with the question, "Do you belong to the NRA?". I posed that question to Denny a couple of years ago and he was not involved in any major sportsmen's group. I labeled all his previous efforts "Janitorial Services." I was simpley challenging him to do something for ALL sportsmen, not just work for his gun club. As you can read it obviously worked as now he's involved with the PFSC.

If more hunters and trappers would attend their gun club meetings and maybe a PGC meeting once every couple of years things might be better managed in Pennsylvania.

Ask yourself,....what contribution have I made to the sport? If you can't answer that then you might want to join a club or sportsmens organization. Get involved and stay informed. Don't let voices on an internet forum direct you. Find out for yourself.

Remember, the folks at the Elmerton office work for you. They're public servents. Demand they serve your interests.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Pot meet kettle, Crazy Horse, i sense a lot of hatred and resentment in all of your posts, i think when uttering the above phrase you should be looking in the mirror.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

John,
It's difficult to get people to be involved in their local club let alone a state wide organization.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

"T" so true. I really think that it's a case of apathy. Until things get much worse hunters will accept whatever is spoon fed to them. Unless one gets involved, one really has very little to say about how things go.
No different than going to your gun club meeting. You have to remember, those who attend the meetings are the people who set the rules and run the club. Those who don't attend can only follow what others dictate.

Why "Bowtech Joe" how can you say such a thing. I'll have you know I'm the nicest guy I know. Just ask me and I'll tell you.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

CrazyHorse wrote: "I was simpley challenging him to do something for ALL sportsmen, not just work for his gun club. As you can read it obviously worked as now he's involved with the PFSC."

Actually, that's not quite true in the context ofour previous exchanges of several years ago, since my meagerservice to the NRA, FNRA, regional efforts like Cabela's Pro-Am 3DNortheast regional tournaments in the mid-90sand multi-county youth field days,long predated his evaluation of my contributions as beingmerely local and janitorial in nature.

He did help tomake it somewhateasier forme togetinvolved in thePFSC though.As for achoicebetweentheother groupor the PFSC, it was an easy decision on my part, when asked to becomethe county delegate.

:)

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Yep,that will all stand up in court.It sounds like a 3rd grader crying because him mom made him do his homework instead of letting him go out and play.

Isee they've now included the phantom mountain lions as impacting the deer herd.Maybe someone can forward them a picture of some of these bobcats.I hope they didn't pay a premium price for that attorney.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Already had the opportunity to read it in its entirety earlier today.

Boy, that sounds like arational idea, doesn't it: Disregard professional biologists and wildlife mangers in favor of allowing a court to dictate deer management, in the hope that perhapssome people will stop bawlin'?

I liked a commentmade earlier in the document, where USP essentially nowsays that greater numbers of deer will do abetter job of managing regen for the benefit of all wildlife. Thought yinz guys were locked into theconcept of not worrying about other wildlife...just give us all the deer we want and tahellwidd all that warm and fuzzyhabitat stuff?

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Fine with me ifJudge Simpson decides he'll be the one to dictate deer managment policy and givesUSP what they want. Then he can sort out all those things that you refer to. Better start working on your presentation to prove to him that you know more about ARs andHR, than those knuckleheads on Elmerton Ave. do, because he'll likely need some direction.

Might even hire you as a consultant, Lord knows it appears that you have the time and inclination for it.

:)

Wonder how long it will be until some other group decides they're unhappy with too many deer, or deer hunting in generaland file their lawsuits? Perhaps some other judge will decide he or she will then take the reins and we can start all over again.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Good Post -:D

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Maybe you should testify as an expert witness for the USP. Something tells me that the PGC wouldn't mind that a bit

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Maybe you should provide a link to where they made that conclusion. I have read a couple of articles on what they had to say and I simply couldn’t find where they made any such conclusion.

What they said was lots of maybes, could result in, might happen and that it did happen with computer simulations in a few instances. Something tells me that real deer respond a lot differently then computer deer.

I am sure that you and your USP friends what people and especially the court to believe that some professionals came to such a conclusion but I don’t that is the reality of the facts.

If you want people to believe they made the conclusion you said they made you will need to provide some proof of them coming to that conclusion since that isn’t what I understand them saying at all. In fact I couldn’t find any conclusion, just a lot of uncertainty in what I read from their reports.

Dick Bodenhorn

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

The stated goal of AR was to increase the average age of our bucks somewhat to bring our B/D ratio back in line and improve the breeding class. It only makes sense that some high grading would be a possibility. You forget to mention however that PA hunters were mowing down almost every buckat 1 1/2 years of age. The firearm season is still the most significant season in terms of the buck kill and it is still its' original two weeks in length. Considering that many PA rifle hunters hunt one day and an even larger number hunt perhaps opening day and two Saturdays, it's ridiculous to compare how AR might be affecting a state that allows up to three bucks per season with a rifle season that lasts for over two months and includes the use of dogs. If it makes sense that some high grading might happen here, it also makes sense that high grading results are likely to be very much more pronounced in a state with a two month season,that allows the use of dogs, and has a three buck/season limit.

Your use of Mississippi is meaningless, apples and oranges, in PA.The rifle hunting pressure in Miss is much higher than here. the likelyhood that fewerAR legal deer will survive would make high grading much more of a concern. You leave out that a sublegal buck here that survives puberty might now become educated enough to outwit our 1-3 day hunters. If we had a twomonth season and used dogs, even the very smart bucks, or most of them,will eventually make a mistake and get intoa collision course witha bullet.

Once again Deaddeer. Beenthere, Deerfly, Ddear. You cleverly leave out part of the picture when you make one of your points. Spin Spin Spin... blah blah blah... spin spin spin...blah blah blah

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

I'll give you this, You are relentless. :eek: Produce the claims you are making and I will respond. Without a link or an exact quote, I wont answer because I have no idea which particularstatements or "facts" you are spinning today.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

What you've failed to recognize is that a lot if not most USP members don't really care what you think. They know what the conditions are where they hunt and want a change in the management form. That's not being unreasonable given the hunting conditions on a great many game lands as well as State property.

Your looking out for your particular wants and needs and so are the people who signed the law suit. (Remember the large percentage of license sales loss? The silent minority...)
It's imperative for RSB to go along with the PGC deer plan. He works for them. Also, if/when DCNR takes over , and they have great influence over the agency as we all know, Dick may get a layoff slip. The Game Commission and the Fish Commission certainly wouldn't need that many officers. That being the case they could fill up any available openings and the rest would be either put out to pasture or simply laid off as is the case in the real world.
Remember, both agencies have legislative laison reps. Both agencies have executive staffs. Both agencies have officers.All that duplication would be surperfluous and undoubtly some folks would get the boot. So..., in order to maintain this duplicity the PGC has to fight hard to stay alive even though all the legislators have been made aware of the incompentance the PGC has displayed (for all to see) in running an agency and driving it intio near bankruptcy as well as standing by while their customer base dwindles away and they continue to alienate the hunter.

Maybe the PGC should hire Gary Alt back. I'm sure he has a plan.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

Makes alot of sense. Also - have no idea what Miss would have to do with PA.Way too many variables to come to a conclusion and then compare it to PA ro any other state in the NE.

Would be like me in Delaware comparing a study in Texas and making decisions and conclusions for AR and Management on my hunting property or the state as a whole.Similarities but that's where it ends.

Anybody that's hunted for any length of time knows there are vast differances from one local to another just a few miles away - let alone a state in the deep south compared to PA in the NE. Come On Give me a Break.

RE: LETS ROLL USP !!!!!
 

BTW - If this thread starts headed toward where I think its going - Its getting locked up.

We will not get back to looking at the "PA deer numbers" hashing that has been posted for months and months and months in this forum.It ain't gonna happen on my watch.We've all seen the numbers and listened to the constant bickering and flaming.

Keep it fresh and New