RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

What did I do?!? I think you have AJ and I confused, although I do agree with what he is saying. I already said that if the, how do you say it, gooberman, wants to pay me FMV or less with other incentives to take my house, hell the whole development, and turn it back into open space, bring on the bulldozers!Like you said, with all these creative variable rate mortgages, there will be plenty of people going bust and I can get a bigger house somewhere else on the cheap.But yousaid you would gladly sell to developers to have your land turned into McMansions. Even if the 'gooberman' could come up with enough to make you comfortable and incentives to be paid later you said show me the $$$ and would have the land developed. Its your right to do so, but to bitch and moan if the 'gooberman' holds up your sale for just a little while to discuss with you other possible options is just selfish. I NEVER said they should force you to sell to them or stop you from selling to whomever you wanted. I just said maybe you should think a little past the $$ before you did so. You declined. Its your right to do so, but dont expect others to respect you for your decision.

Since you are so smart, i'm sure you figured this out already, but if the housing market crashes the way you expect, your trees wont be worth as much as you are banking on. Maybe you should sell some of the development rights to your land to the gooberman and buy some of those oil futures after all.... ;)

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

I am already being payed for oil futures.Now I am waiting for you young bucks to make the big bucks and get tired of living like sheep.Then you will pay me the big bucks to live like I do now!
Then I am going to Wyoming to never be heard from again.


I knew you would like that!!!!!!!;)

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

I'll wade in, as this argumant looks REAL different depending on what side of the fence you live on.

Any person I know who owns a large chunk of ground, myself included, invested an awful lot of money on it. There are some pieces of property coming onto the market that are legacy family owned properties which sometimes can be quite large and are essentially the "estate" of the deceased. From the outside it is easy to point fingers and call "greedy" but on the inside you have real people with real lives and real debt and challenges. When they "sell" they have 3 legit options, what the government can scrape together and the red-tape and timeassociated with it, a development firm or to individual investors.If you can't step up to play and bid on that land, what gives you the right to criticize any of the players? Because you want open space and hunting lands? If you REALLY wanted it for that you'd be working harder and saving more so you could buy it yourself. If you think it is the governments job to do it and the rest of the tax base's job to buy it and keep it open for you then you need to move to some ultra Socialist society and stand in the bread line on Thursday and take your hand outs. This is America, and the OPPORTUNITY to buy is given to us all. If you lack the resources or desire to take part, you are just a bystander on your 1/4 acre spot and your voice isn't worth squat.

The original point of the article was the government's attempt to use "zoning" and land use restrictions to limit what property owners could do with thier land. There are already very specific laws and rules related to building and land use set in place to control environmental impact. What the government was trying to do is control what and how land owners could use their properties, not to protect the environement but to preserve open space and to appease certainconservation groups. For anyone who doesn't think that land and property is an investment, you are dead wrong. Old time farms were purchased for the revenue potential and long term benefit of the families that owned them. Now that their value is less than their actual land value by 1000 times, why do you think it would be wrong to sell them for the same exact reason they were purchased in the first place?

Now, before you rip into me for looking at this without emotion, but essentially a purebusiness transaction, there are choices and options for those who care. A very powerful thing is a group of like minded people with some financial resources. Buy the land, or in the case of the town I live in, we contribute to a "fund" that allows us to quickly move on open space land at the speed and with the funds of a land developer. If we can't afford it or the value is not worth it, we must pass. I think the real problem isn't the people selling the farms, or the developers buying the land.. but the hordes of people sitting on the porches of their 1/5 acre lots moaning about the lost open space but not caring enough to do anything about it and "hoping" for the government to handle it. I call people like that useless sheep..... and you deserve Hillary when you get her.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

MA jay You are right about people being the ones that need to solve this problem.The Gooberment causes more problems then it solves.
When these people get tired of living like sheep & raising their kids like sheep they will step up and buy a piece of land for them selves & then lets hear them yell when they are told what they can & can't do with it.

Good luck with your group. Jim

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

Break out the webcams, I see a tickle party coming on,,,, ;)

How arogant you two are. Calling everyone who doesnt own land sheep just because you all decided to buy some land. Chopping non landowners down just because we like to see land preserved over housing developements. You are right, how evil we are to suggest you take just a little bit less to keep land open. Not just for 'me' but for everyone to enjoy as well as all of the wildlife that would be able to continue to have open space.

Thats right I forgot, to hell with all that, just show you guys the $$$$. [:'(]

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

Noteveryone - just those that whine, sit and demand the government "do something" about this injustice.

Steve

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

Step right out your front door , look left ,now look right ,its pretty hard to keep from going BAAAAAA BAAAAA now isn't it.

You are making this to easy.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

I never made any mention on how much land I owned? I never mentioned jobs in the big city either.What I'm speaking of is how landowners and the
irresponsible decisions local and state Gooberment can and do make every day with respect to zoning,land devlopemnent,density,the demise of open spaces,quality of life,all for the almighty $$buck$$.

This is not about what I want or need or what any individual thinks they have the god given right to do with there land and the hell with the rest of humanity.

All this talk about land rights with little or no thought on the infrastructure to support it.Thats what this is all about.My thoughts and opinions are in the majority in the state in which I live.

BTW alot of talk about sheep??

I'm not into sheep,but if anybody here is - Hey go for it.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

This thread was started to belittle a women that sold her property (trees)with out all of your permission.Not a word was spoken about infrastructure.
Your pal the duckmaster filled us in on his land holdings (1/4 acer) as for you I would say moms house or and apartment.
As you get older & hopfully wiser you will find in a free market the $$$$'s do matter.And by making land undesirable for some you are lowering the tax rate on some & increasing it on others(home owners).The area you live in is being over run with people looking for jobs in the city with $3.00 a gallon gas people will want to live closer to their jobs.I work for myself so I dont drive far so my country living suits me fine,If city living doesn't work out for you move some place that does.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

Thats 1/3 of an acre thank you very much! ;)

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

I dont know what you are talking about and I've given up trying. You've admitted you are just looking to sell your land in the future to the highest bidder and you dont care what comes of the land as long as you get the most $$$ you can. Than you call anyone who would like to see the land preserved if possible 'sheep' and make juvenile comments to try and pick a fight.

You've labelled me a 'sheep' and implied I'm just someone who sits on the sideline and waits for the gooberment to take care of my wants. Ok, fine.

Well, I have a clear picture of you in my mind. I see you riding out to your 1 mile spread of land and pulling your ride over to the side of the road. Looking out over it and say 'Man, I havesomething that everyone else wants but its all mind. What a bunch of losers they are. I was just so damn smart to buy this and now everyone is just jealous of me. Damn Im good. And when I no longer need this place, i'm going to sell it for a kings ransome. My daughter will never have to work a day in her life and I can retire to where ever I want. This land will be all houses but i'll have enough to buy just as much land out west somewhere so i'll be fine. Oh look, there's 10 deer coming into my field. I guess they'll all be gone when I sell, but who cares, i'll be long gone with my millions. Hey, I deserve it, I was smarter than everyone else. This is America! Its all about me and my family. To hell with everyone else'

So, call me a sheep all you want. Make your BAAAA noises all you want and chuckle about how smart you think you are. If thats the best you can do, I feel sorry for your daughter. Being raised bynothing more than an arrogant school yard bully. Truely sad.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

You have to watch what you say about me ,You don,t know me ,you don,t know my daughter .
Just because we strive to make our life better .You are the one that asked about selling my land, I never brought it up.You are reaching alot ,go back and read my post ,you will not find the goals you say I have set .
I am older and smarter than you !
Grow up and buy your own land and maybe you kids won't have to live like you do,it is the best thing you can give them.

And if you continue to lie I will again post your own threats.

But Aj will cover for UUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

Ding. Round 2.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

Hummm post started to belittle a woman?? As I recall this thread was started in response to a woman who basically clear cut her land to make a point."Delaware Landowners going to far"

A link was attached for all to read.Comments and opinions were introduced in this thread on this ladys conduct,opinions and reasoning.Folks like her many times have a negative affect on the future of small commnunities and its land use etc..etc. bla..bla..I simply stated the gobberment as you call it,also plays a big part in all this.

As I recall you did the name calling and belittling.Go back and read your own posts.I don't recall anybody here stating growth or selling ones land was Wrong??

As far as lowering property tax rates and increasing tax rates.What does that have to do with the price of coffee??

I'm not understanding your comment on the city jobs or the $3 gallon gas.
I never mentioned the size or population of my community.
If you think everyone is scurring here for big jobs you have not done your research.Much of the area I live in is farm land.Many of these small towns in S. Delaware(do the research) are bed room towns.

As I get older(never mentioned my age)I will always remember your infinite absolute words of wisdom on land use and rights.

In the mean time you should do more research and listen to what is being said rather than worring about who might be attacking you or siding with another poster. Geeeezzzz

Have a Good One - Get Lots of Sleep.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

This will be my last post on this.

As far as the woman in the article, she cut trees down on her land. She was not cited for breaking any laws and not fined that the article stated because she broke a local rule. What possible problem could you have with that. Do your neighbors call the papers when you cut YOUR grass, call the cops when you pull weeds? Absolutely not. They are her trees, and if she could get permits and approval and wanted to make it a gravel quarry she should and could do it.

Duckmastor, for those people who purchase and own tracks of land for their own use and investment I can assure you that thinking of other people as losers or jealous is the last thing in the world that comes to mind. We think about where to hang stands, grow food plots and how to keep trespassers off. No one dropping serious money on land is doing it because of what other people think of them, it is purely for our personal benefit. With all of the hard work to make the money and own the property, we get the right because we are Americans to legally do what ever we want with the land. Sell it whole, or in pieces or fence it. Any person who blindly and impotently "wishes" that others would do with their land as they would do if by some miracle or lottery win they had the money to own it is living in La La land.

By your opinions it is clear we have different views. I personally believe that it is my responsibility to care for my family and to attain those things which make us happy, safe and secure. I do not expect nor would I count on someone else or the government to provide essentials for me or my family and I definitely would not expect the government to take or control the use of land so I could take part in hunting or fishing. That would be like the government siezing your driveway space due to the local kids wanting a place to play basketball. You may be ok with that type of siezure and control of your home and its driveway, but I am definitely not.

The last point I have, "open space preservation" does not equate to open hunting land. Here in the Northeast, we have quite a bit of "conservation land" of which most of it is only used forpurposes allowed by the local government.Many of those communities completely ban hunting. Because local people allowedcommunities through zoning and conservation easements to control large pieces of open space, they now get the rules associated with governement control such as -
[ol][*]No Hunting[*]No Access before sunrise and after sunset[*]No ATV or Snowmobile access[*]Access to land ONLY on marked trails[/ol]
If those sound like the kind of rules you want to follow, wait for the government to control your open spaces. Me, I'll bust my butt and make the money necessary to insure I can hunt and walk as far offthe trail as I care to on my land. Since it will be a large part of my estate, my children can do with it as they feel.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

MA Jay Thank you I don't have anything to add to your last post.You are more right than these people will ever know.

Owning land is one of the most gratifying things a man can do.And being able to leave it to your family is a gift most will only dream about.

Thanks again Jim

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

It is very obvious neither of you gents read the story in its entirety.
You must of buzzed over it and created your own spin based on preconceived opinions.The lady clear cut her property to make a statement,to spite the state.Very obvious from reading the article - Read It.

BTW clear cutting land is not the same as cutting your grass! But not cutting your grass can get you in trouble.

I do expect my goverment who myself and others as a majority elected to protect land,air,water,and other valuable resources from the likes of every land grabbing habitat rapist - or - private land owners from building condo's,townhouses or spec homes to the tune of 6-8-10-12 units per acre.

Landowners do not have some god given constitutional right to do what they damn well please with there land.These are the things I/we entrust the government to control within the confines of federal,state and local laws.If we don't like it - vote em out.

Matter of fact I would much rather have the Fed or State manage open spaces vs some yahoo who has nothing but a dollar sign in mind. Thank the good lord we have ample land around here that the Feds and State control or it would have been raped long ago.

I can hunt,fish,camp,build a fire etc...on any Federal land around here and most State Parks. I can also driven my 4WD on the beaches(with permit).ATV's should be freekin outlawed on ALL fed and state lands. Does nothing but disturb game,and tear up the land.

Far as property values declining.Yes they will.Many many people came here for the open spaces and paid the price.When the open spaces dwindle,are gone,or compromised by land grabbers,property values will decrease.I know people who decided NOT to buy at or around the beach area simply because the density and traffic has become overbearing during the summer months.They have taken there money elswhere.Do your research before you make such broad statements on land values and exclusive rights as landowners.

Have a fine Day

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

You dont know me, so thats a pretty bold statement. But, if it makes you feel good,,,,,

True, so I could get a feel on why you were making your stand. And we all found out why, for the $$$.

If I ever do have kids, they'll live just fine. Despite what people like you do to whats left of our open space.

I didnt lie, I just told the forum how I perceiveyou. An educated guess from your posts. And I NEVER threatened you. Just a wish. I admit, a childlish outburst, but I felt I needed to sink to your level at the time to get your attention.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

The problem I have is that the only reason those trees are gone is because she didnt like the fact the state targeted her land for possible preservation and she felt her land value had dissappeared, which is just not true. If the land preservation map would have not had been released, those trees and habitat would still be there. That was the point of the whole thread to begin with. Landowners destroying the habitat on their lands just to keep the land value as high as possible so they could cash in. Somewhere along the line, we lost the fact that pretty much everyone feels its wrong for the govt to just take people land for preservation. We all agree that landowners need to be compensated fairly if they decide to dispose of their property. Before we all got distracted by the ugliness of this thread, I think the main disagreement was freedom of landowners to dispose of their lands at will to the highest bidder vs having to wait a bit until the state govt could come up with a plan to try and persuade landowners to preserve the land for a deal that maybe wasnt as much or as quick as a developer could come up with. The landowner saying 'its my land and how dare someone stop me from doing what ever I want' vs the govt saying 'just hold up a bit and maybe we can work on something out 1st' I can see the landowners side, but like I said before, owning open space comes with a different responsibilty than owning a car, house, etc. They arent making more open space. Once land is developed, it isnt going back.

So, if you are a landowner and you resent ANY hold ups in selling your land, we'll never agree. If you destory habitat on your land to drive up your property value for development, I have NO repsect for you. And, if the state wishes to convice landowners not to sell their lands to developers, they need to come up with a plan that will fairly compensate them for their willingness not to take the fast buck. There has to be a middle ground and both sides need to willing to keep an open mind.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

altho I agree with the conceptp of this post... first is not always possible, as country people have nowhere near the $$ as city/urbanites..that's a fact of geographic influence. country folk have land, but no $$ to "play" with the big boy contractors, who's already destroyed tens of thousands of acres for developement, and made millions in the process. this is NOT a question of socialism,quite the opposite...capitalism at its' finest... it's just that in a capitalist society, he who has the Gold, rules.
as for # 2....... EVERYONE'S voice counts... too many fellow vets gave their life to assure that..don't YOU ever forget that.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

I guess that wasn't my last post.

Duckmastor- I think we'll have to agree that we see this from different sides. I don't see a problem with the woman in the article clearing the trees and habitat from HER land to raise its value. She obviously bought that land as an investment and feared that its value could be lost if she was unable to sell or develop it. If throwing a coat of paint on your house would net you an extra $10k when you go to sell it, you'd do it. While you may look ate HER land and see it as different then some other typed of owned property, many do not. Just like a car you buy it, pay taxes on it, insure it and when you feel like it you sell it. Also like a car there are rules to protect the environment (very limited albeit) and other surrounding people but as long as you follow the rules and laws, it is your property and you can do what you want. Such as chop every single tree down on your land.

AJ52 - If youthink land values will decrease, you are just flat wrong. While your property value could and may take short term dips over the long haul you can bet your last dollar on land values increasing. As it was stated, you can't make more of it which means that its value will only increase over time. That is one of the main reasons people buy land, it WILL increase in value over time. Remember, while you may cry inside when you lose a farm to houses and think no one will want to live there now... it is still more open than the city people are moving from. It is purely relative.

Rem1100 - I don't think it is fair to lump "country people" as a whole as not having enough money to buy land with the "developers". This is not the case across the board. I know many farmers from Iowa to Washington to New Hampshire that make much more money than the average "city/suburbanite". Of course the ratio is the same as with information workers, it is always the 80 / 20 rule. 80% of the money is made by 20% of the people which in my experience is the same for farmers and country folk. My point is it is not for lack of opportunity, as any person who has worked very hard and watched their credit and took a few risks others may not have the stomach to make (such as buyinga neighboring farm) there is currently and hopefully always will be opportunity to buy and own your piece of the "pie".

and finally-
As a veteran myself, as was my father and grandfather I promise you that I will never forget that. My point is that just using your "voice" from the sidelines does not entitle you to be heard. But using your voice to gather other voices and the hands, heart and minds behind their voices to a cause, such as preserving open space, is the only way to influence this particular issue. 1000 people yelling from the top of their lungs off their porch won't secure 1 acre of open space. Get 10 people together who put thier mouths, money and votes together and you could buy a piece of open land and open it up for eveyones use and potentially recruit more mouths and money to your cause. Of course this takes "effort" not just yelling from the porch.... which I believe was my beef with this post.

For the record, open space is VERY important to me. But I do not blind myself with the "wish it was" or the "shoulda" or "woulda", it tales a lot of effort and money to make a difference. I invite any and all to come down off the porch.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

I think is article addresses what AJ was talking about a few posts back.

http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060523/NEWS/60523001/1006

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

No - land values do not normaly decrese.The bubble pops on the appreciation rate.Home/Land values do plumitt in comparison to what they could have appreciated to if not deluged with unfavorable ill planned developement and density.

Thats a fact Jack.If anyone here doesn't understand that concept on land/home value appreciation rates than you live in the land of Oz!

MA Jay - How many,what percentage is your "many famers that make much more money". I would say from my experiance and the hundreds of farmers whom I've done business with your many is a very few indeed and far less than the 80/20 rule.The average farmer(the majority IMO)puts in twice the man hours,10 times the debt and risk factorsr(mother nature),no benifits or holidays to produce from there land what the average burbanite can make in one year with all the bennys attached.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

Yes - Duck that is exactly what I was reffering to - The rape and pilage of Milford by its Dead Head City Council.Annex a farm,rezone,increase density and for every $1.00 you bring in it cost approx $1.20 to support it(current predictions).

BTW - another land grab Rape and Pilage is going on in Cambridge Maryland/Dorchester County in the Black Water Wildlife Refuge.They are bound and determined to develop that land(been approved).Some of the most prestine(sp)wetlands and ecosytem on the East Coast and they want to fill it with concrete,nails and vinyl siding! A real travisty.All for the "Almighty $$Buck$$" as my Father used to say.

It ain't over yet.All this land is part of the Chesapeake Bay.Needless to say the local Yocal council has a huge fight on there hands before the 1st dozer cranks up.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

ahh-hahh...... the proverbial snowball... you move to escape, yet are in essence ,creating the same problem that you're escaping...by increasing the population of your new home...and that's how it starts..1 at a time.
I own land in the 26th fastest growing county in the nation.Berkeley Co. WVa.... 200K will get you under 10 acres..NO HOME... and I WILL sell my land for the best $$, when time comes..'cuz it's making the best of a bad situation..I can't stop the growth, but I CAN reap the harvest of the influx of slickers. I'm gonna make 'em PAY thru the nose, and they will. But this is beter than playing the stckmarket.. they ain't makin' no more land......
you wanna talk wildlife sanctuary... can't happen. inevitably, you'll be overpopulated by game as exsisting lands disappear..it's happening here,now. you cannot create a managerie & stock pile game...commedable effort, but it won't work due to the stress on the ground. it takes a LOT of land to support any sizable population of animals. 150 Ac is a fair pc, but won't support much, if all your neighbors lands' turn to houses on all sides.
.....come take a look for yourself,Bro......

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

..as a former farmer, I can't sell enough beef on my land, to equal the $$ that land would bring as developement...not in 10 lifetimes. Trouble is, when the small farms go, America will start being dependant on OTHER NATIONS for food, as the small farmer produces more than the BigBoyz, overall. Start looking @ where your fruit is coming from(as well as other food products,already!) South America!! Personally, I'm not sure it's wise to leave your food supply to a foreign nation...but that's exactly what's happening... 1 farm at a time.

RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
 

Rem1100 - I do agree with you that needing food from another nation would be a very bad thing, but currently the US creates an enormous surplus each year. Here in New England we are seeing a rise, not a huge one but a rise in small organic farms which are proving profitable. I hope the trend continues andmy family does all it canto support this by buying direct.

AJ52, so it seems we came to an agreement that land values are not going to decrease. As Rem said, it is the shift in populations away from cities that is creating the need and hence the value increases. Without the shift theland value does not appreciate as much. It is the need for those home, densely built or not that is creating the value appreciation.

To my point of some successful farmers, I'll use 2 friends as examples. I have 1 friend in the finger lakes area of NY that runs a 350 head dairy farm on 1700 acres. The property has been in the family for 3 generations and is "owned". They sell off all male calves, and run a tanker truck every other day of milk off the farm. He "owns" litterally millions of dollars in equipment, with the occasional new pieces being financed. He gets some small tax freedoms and does get some subsidizing for land use projects.Is he and his brother rich by some standards?The 2 families may pull in$80k in cash each, but they are worth 10'sof millions of dollars. That is quite a bit more worth than most suburbanites.

Another friend in Northeast Iowa runs beef cattle, 200 + head.He bought this farm with his wifein the same area his family has been farming for years. Now I will admit that the beef market fluctuates greatly, but when he sells off beef he typically does quite well, well enough he is looking at buying a smaller, 300 acre piece next door for $350k. He could swing it. Now, partly this is because he can make some money of the next door farm, but how many suburbanites can afford to buy the house next door as "rental income"? A few, but not many.

I am not saying all farmers are rich, they bust their butts for what they make. That being said, if they work hard AND smart, make good business decisions... they can make as much as any other working stiff in the system with the added benefit that what they are doing for work is wholly owned or at the very least an asset worth far more than what the average Joe has. It takes a special kind of person to do well at farming, as unlike other jobs it requires 100% self motivation each and every day. I think the problem with many farmers isn't that they can't make money, it's just that like in everything else in life, there are some hard working people, there are some decent effort but not motivated people and then there are slackers.

Which comes back to my point with the woman who owns the land this thread is about. She did what she wanted with her land. Made a few bucks on her trees and thumbed her nose at the local government. All legal and within her rights.