NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

I hunt state land, and feel the approach of improving the herd with DMP's and Antler Restrictions are not a balanced approach to helping improve the deer herd. These are 'wait & see' what develops systems, which improve the numbers of the herd, but not the overall health of the herd. In the Catskills, where I hunt, and the Adirondacks, which I have hunted twice, these methods are one sided, looking at the end product, increased numbers, without giving consideration to the supply side of the equation to get there, nutrition. In western New York, there is sufficient agriculture to help feed the herd back, however in the Catskills & Adirondacks, quantity & quality of feed isn't there for a truly healthy herd. I think the DEC should look into habitat improvement, like the planting of mast bearing trees/food plots, similar to the private outfitters/ranches do. I feel a healthy herd is a herd with proper nutrition, and proper buck/doe balance. Look at the NWTF or Ducks Unlimited. These organizations exist to improve their sport by working with dec's, and they work well.. The turkey populations have exploded everywhere, and DU has saved & restored wetlands nationally. They provide an organized volunteer work force to the DECs to get these projects done. Do you think the DEC should be including habitat improvement in its plans? Would an organization for the benefit of a quality, healthy deer herd in NY help?

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

Actually I believe the DEC looks at its many state lands, and sets up a timber managment plan that would benefit all aspects of the wild. Then select marks tree's for cutting. I've seen this done in many state lands. They mark tree's of least benefit, Den tree's, and tree's to cut but leave for cover. I'm not sure if they do much planting of new tree's as food sources, but that would be beneficial. I do know Soil & Water offers seedling tree's at reduced costs to the public every spring. I believe they come from a Saratoga nursery. I've bought a few in the past myself.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

FYI - actually most SWCDs get their trees from private nurseries. DEC has their own seedling sales that come from Saratoga

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

Honestly, I agree that our management program is not the best. But on the other hand, I like our licensing system and the fact that I can definately hunt every year. In the past 2 years, I have started hunting mroe and more private land, and honestly, my perception of our deer herd changed a lot. While our antler situation is horrible, there are plenty of deer out there if you are in the right place. My biggest suggestion was to implant some deer with superior genetics from places like Iowa and Illinios to possibly improve our gene pool.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

I agree, if the DEC truly wants to increase the herd they need to be much more proactive in their habitat management plan. The area where I hunt in theCatskills, I have yet to see the DEC or anyone from the state selectively timberthe several thousand acres thathave reverted to mature, unproductive forest. I believe it is one of themany contributing factorsthat has lead tosuch adramatic decline in deer numbers in this area.Limited browse and cover, ensures that deer numbers will not able to rebound even if DMP's are eliminated.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

I believe part of the issue is the "Forever Wild" designation on certain areas. If I remember correctly, doesn't that mean that they do absolutely nothing on that land other than stop peple from destroying it? In other words, they don't clear trees, deadfall, replant, or anything like that.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dlf/publands/artxiv.htmlForest Preserve - Article XIV NYS Constitution
I read it saying for the state land owned within the Adirondack & Catskill parks, Section 1: 'nor shall the timber thereon be sold, removed or destroyed'; this severely limit the activity to help the herd. Then it goes on to say about lands outside of the two parks, and land aquired later will be managed: Forest and wildlife conservation are hereby declared to be policies of the state... Furthermore it states the list of restrictions on section one are removed except for this: lands shall not be leased, sold or exchanged, or be taken by any corporation, public or private. So, if I'm reading this correctly, outside of the parks, it's permissable for the state to thin out the trees and plant vegetation to promote wildlife. I just heard a statistic that hunting is a 10 billion dollar a year industry in the US alone, which we've all been contributing to for many years. I would think the DEC would want to get a larger slice of that pie thru a more healthy deer herd, producing nice bucks statewide, to draw in more out of state hunters to feed the economy & coffers of the state.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

One thing the DEC is NOT going to do is transplant deer from other states, thats a guarantee! With the CWD scare, and the fact that one of the states mentioned, Illinois, has already had a positive, it wont happen. As for the DEC planting mast trees, thats a 30 year plan for many trees to mature. Id say with all the private land out there, and the rise in popularity of food plots, etc, and no improvement in the herd, that perhaps the problem lies elsewhere.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

"The area where I hunt in theCatskills, I have yet to see the DEC or anyone from the state selectively timberthe several thousand acres thathave reverted to mature, unproductive forest. "

The state does want to help and if you check the regs you'll see that they will in fact provide a forestry/environmental expert free of charge to anyone for an evaluation on the best way to utilize their private land for wildlife trees etc. HOWEVER, you guys must realize that your idea of mature unproductive forest is a little out of whack with reality, while it may not be optimal for deer its is productive and does provide for a whole lot of other animals. As far as being mature, the real question is mature when compared to what? When the forest is filled with true mature oak trees, maybe then you could consider trimming them down. All of the Catskills /Adirondacks and basically the entire eastern US to the Ohio valley has been clearcut in the recent past. You have never seen nor can you probably imagine a mature forest. A forest where the trees are over two hundred years old with some giants topping 400 years old.(old oak proved for size reference so you mistakenly won'tcall the Catskills pencil farm a mature forest.this example is spread out but other species and other oaks grow more vertical. Imagine a forest where the ground around the trees is dark due to their canopy effect?)

After me or my children/grandchildren have experienced such a thing then you can consider chopping some down for deer. Can you imagine a forest of such beasts? The parks we got now are filled with baby trees and you already want to cut them down. Please reconsider, more than enough deer on private lands and with some good forest management like liming/fertilizer thestate land forests will produce tons of mast. Lets see what the forests can do before we start cutting them down.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

More than enough deer on private lands doesn't help Joe Public, nor does it help get new hunters involved, unless you open your lands to them..

In the Catskills, the problem I'm talking about is quality, not neccesarily quanity. Personally, I'd rather take does as needed and a nick buck every 5 years than a nonstop streak of spikes & forks, and I'm sure others feel the same way. Empy handed years are acceptable to me. I understand that the trees are second growth, and it does take years to mature into full mast production. The liming/fertilizer idea sounds like a good one to me, enhance what we have. Anything to me is better than just doing the A/R programs.
In the Adirondacks however there are a few spots of untouched old growth, and deer are still far & few thruout the park, but big, due to old age.. In addition, the Beech blight wiped out alot of the mature beech tree stands, so it will be many years before a large beech mast year. The browse line along the Long Lake shoreline was like 5 feet high. That tells me that the deer are scrounging for nourishment. Deer with access to improved nutrition have been known to drop 2 fawns a cycle, greatly improving the deer numbers. Maybe a statewide analysis of the forests' nutrient defficiencies is the answer, and a nourishment program implimented.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

Due to our relatively large population, I think that expecting the state to ever try to sizeable increase the deer herd is a pipe dream. NY's goal is to manage just the right amount so that hunters can hunt (and provide economic benefits to the state of course), and so that insurance companies covering farms and autos don't have to pay out massive payments every year. Its an economic balance which I don't think will ever change.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

Our relatively large population? No offense, but that sounds like a politician using a stat created from a staff stat analyist.

Yes it is true that we have a large total state population. HOWEVER, remove NYC's numbers, and New York becomes the least populated state east of the Mississippi River.

And for our purposes of hunting, most of it is done outside of the NYC area. Quite logically some is done in that area, but only a very small percentage.

In my endless number ofconversations with the DEC, I yet to ever hear one say that insurance has any effect on the manner in which they manage the state's deer herd. On the contrary, in many public and private discussions, lectures, articles, I've observed them say clearly that insurance companies are not involved whatsoever with the deer management.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

If you could, I'd appreciate any leads you have on this. Maybe show me where on the DEC Web site it is, or where they've stated that this is NY's goal. Seriously, I really would appreciate it. I could win a ton of awards, and make even more money. So, please if you will...

Anyhow, you have to remember the state has yet to move to managing antler. Even though we have a pilot program started and another this coming season, they are NOT purposely for antler growth at all. It's a biological actionundertakenby the DEC.Being in the Adirondacks, non-natural (farming, plots) food sources simply aren't going to be as abundant. Thus, deer rely on natural forage (of which some they prefer over any farm food), which is a factor in the number and healthof deer in the area.

In other parts of the state, the deer herd is in great shape. But we all have to remember that the shape of the herd is influenced by a large number of factors. Increasing one helps, but it won't cure what some hunters are suffering from.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

I don't recall stating that this was proven anywhere, I'm offerring my opinion, just like everyone else. I doubt the state would admit to anyone that they are allowing a non-consservation related interest to affect conservation though, sothem not telling you (whatever makes you so important that they should....) means nothing. I have heard from many people that it is a defiante possiblility, andthe relation of deer to insurances losses has been brought up many times.

It's obviosuly an issue somewhere:

http://www.senate.state.ny.us/pressreleases.nsf/a9c64cb05dda7e7e85256aff006d42c0/d1bd68889a6e44c4852570180075905b?OpenDocument

http://www.theithacajournal.com/apps...511140316/1002

http://www.agnr.umd.edu/userforms/nera/Projects/project.cfm?type=NE&NumID=1005

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

Again, you need to re-read. You stated NY's goal is to blah blah blah. All I'm asking is that you show me where you pulled this statement from. If it's NY's goal, I want to know about it, because if you re-read, YOU said it. If it was an opinion, you clearly should have stated so, because it wasn't typed that way.

When was the last time you went to a DEC meeting? They almost always state that they do not manage with an interest from insurance companies in any meeting regarding deer issues. You think the DEC is some conspiracy theory department? They aren't going to admit it because they don't practice it. Simple as that.

And coming from someone who manages a lowly, non-attended startup forum who spams other boards, you sure have room to talk and bash other members about their value to the state's outdoor community. I never said I was important (but I do work with the DEC frequently on a first-name basis),however I can rest easy knowing I've done a ton for hunters and anglers in NY by doing my fair share of contributions. Compared to you, I've parted the Red Sea. But I never, ever think that way, and suggest you stop doing so if you want to be productive to other NY hunters via your board. Accusing others of not being important is pretty low-brow. Every hunter in this state is an equal in my book, including you.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

:D...I knew this was going to happen...a follower. Now forever more, I won't be able to offer my opinion on this board without hearing from you because I pissed you off by not following your DECREEby not posting on YOUR THREAD which was posted on a PUBLIC FORUM.......GAME ON [>:].

I already told you BUDDY, it's my opinion, I CLEARLY and CRISPLY stated that above. And as an opinion, I can say whatever the hell I want. I have no duty to you or anyone else when I am stating my opinion, if you can't see it as such, that's your problem. No on else seems to have minded.

Self-important people do not impress me. I have not BASHED you in anyway. Clearly, being someone important, you must realize that a PUBLIC FORUM, is exactly that, PUBLIC. My only misdeed was not listening to you by not posting in your thread. Until it says MODERATOR somewhere near your name, good luckgetting me to listen to another word you ever say.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

Well go back to parting the Red Sea please, thats important work, I wouldn't want to stop you and have some Egyptian soldiers drown because of my distraction.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

(whatever makes you so important that they should....)

Seriously dude, you're killing me. You think I'm following you? LOL, all I wanted was a fact sheet or something prior to you admitting it was actually an opinion shaped like a factual statement.

I'm in this thread fora discussion on the deer herd. Nothing more, nothing less.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

When did I try to hide that what I said was an opinion?After you called me out,I had no problem stating it clearly in the first line of my reply.When was the last time you were provided with a factsheet before or after reading someone else's opinion on a PUBLIC FORUM?

"I'm in this thread fora discussion on the deer herd. Nothing more, nothing less. "

Then you already have my answer PAL, so go back to parting the Red Sea. I am glad people like you exist to make my hunting so great that I recently started spending most of my time in NJ. Maybe you need to do a better job at what you think you are doing.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

I think you missed the point. I wanted a link, factsheet, statement from the DEC, anything...because I was interested in LEARNING. We as a forum provide links, factsheets, etc. to other members who request it. It actually happens quite often. You yourself just did it a couple posts ago on the bill/article links.

Stop antagonizing this thread more. I'm sure it is not appreciated.

Back to topic:
I'm wondering if you (thread starter)could contact the regional dec office to get a more localized answer to possible solutions. At the very least it should offer insight better than we can specualte on a forum. Have you tried that yet?

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

1. I didn't start this thread, check that one real quick.

2. Where were you taught that "fact sheets" are required when stating your opinion in a PUBLIC FORUM

3. This link beloew does mention insurance and property damage as a reason for effective management of deer populations.

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/d...er/ndmgfin.pdf

No please, go back to parting the Red Sea and take a quick look in the dictionary under "opinion".

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

OMG, seriously. Stop, this is foolish.

Your answers:

1. Show me where I said you started this thread, and what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

2. You never stated it was your opinion until after I asked you for a link, factsheet, etc. offering information on it. Again, when other members are interested in a topic, and ask for a link, factsheet etc. people often reply with one, as you did. It's not that hard of a concept there buddy. Once you said it was your opinion, that changed things, but then again you said that AFTER the original post.

3. That's worth inspecting. However, the statements indicate that as physical issue as well.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

"Once you said it was your opinion, that changed things, but then again you said that AFTER the original post. "

And I did, and that should have been the end of this. You're calling me foolish? Re-read the timeline of this conversation. At any moment you can stop talking to me, I actually welcome that. I'll even let you have the last word since that seems to be the problem, so fire away.

I believe that the problem is that I failed to take your bait and get hysterical when you attacked me and my forum, and that is bothering you.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

I'm amazed. Simply amazed. I bow to your wisdom. I'll end this discussion on my part as well. While I said you forum was lowly, and non-attended, notice a sentence later that I acknowledged what you and your forum was doing is a good thing. Every forum is lowly and non-attended when it first starts out. Was it a bait? No. It was advice.

The timeline shows I've attempted to stay on topic of the thread. You have directed conversation at me not related to this thread, just as I did with your forum. Seems you like to call the kettle black, Mr. Pot. For the record, I never called you foolish, that's in your head.

Again, back on topic (for the final time hopefully). TO THE THREAD STARTER! (notice that's not you airborne, okay? I don't want you to get confused and say I accused you of starting a thread!)

Another question I have on the forestry issue is the inspection of the tree health issues. Who maintains records on the outbreaks (like the blight)? The general health of the forest could be revealed in a manner that the DEC or park service would be inclined to act.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

Guys, bickering won't help your deer herd. Not trying to be the ref, but lets get it back on topic here...

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

I believe we are there. I've spoken with the thread starter on this.

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

Opinions backed by fact carry the most weight and receive the most consideration - as least to me. Opinion that seemed to be pulled out of the air or from popular perpetuated myths are ignored with a shake of the head.

Steve

RE: NY Deer Hunters- An idea to improve the herd
 

Then it should have been ignored, that would have been fine by me. I checked the rules by the way, no where did it say that one is discouraged from offerring an opinion on a public thread in the forum.