Bucks still packing
 

I saw a nice 8 point last night coming home from a shopping trip. He was still packing both sides. Not unusual though for me, pretty common. I've seen quite a few over the years with horns intact well into March.

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I saw a really nice buck last tues. couldn't tell how many points, but he was well past his ears!!I 'm going through with-draw ,i hope i make it to bear season!!:)

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My brother got several trail cam pictures last week of buck that are still carrying their antlers.

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So is this why I haven't found any sheds yet? LOL....maybe I'm just that bad at spotting them.

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Nope...can't see what isn't there.
My experience is that the small bucks will shed earlier but bigger bucks hold 'em till mid March. I saw a monster years ago in very early April that still had 'em.

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Dang wish I could be home to do some shed hunting

RE: Bucks still packing
 

livbucks,
I can't remember where I read this so I can't validate how reliable the sourcemight bebut the article said that bucks are genetically programmed to drop their antlers during a 1 week period and will do it in that week every year for their entire life. In other words if a buck dropshis first setthe 2nd week in february he will always drop them at that time regardless of age. Another buck mayyear after year drop his the first week in march. I think the article was the result of a study of captive deer but I read it a long time ago and just can't remember so take this with a grain of salt.

RE: Bucks still packing
 

i myself just saw two nice bucks last night with their antlers still on their heads as well.

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I was told that shedding is controlled by photoperiodism. The amount of sunlight per day that is absorbed by their eye. Weather can contribute to affect the start of this by having abnormally sunny or heavy overcast days, moon phase, clear nights...etc.
Small bucks have small pedicels and tend to detach much easier. The layer that attaches the antler to the skull will break down at a faster rate. Of course, deer are individuals and results may vary. I have heard of guys shooting shed bucks as antlerless deer in late seasons, although I have never seen this personally.
I have not heard of what you speak of, that is new to me.

RE: Bucks still packing
 

I had read the mechism was also the increased light hours but this is also coupled with a change in diet and decreased sex drive. Antler use I think also plays a part - less fighting, and using the antler to browes under snow. I have a buddy in Alabama that says the antler drops are allways different and some keep them for more than a season.

Maybe depends also on where they live.

RE: Bucks still packing
 

Guys, if itll help, Ill share what I see...I used to really shed hunt hard. I found big antlers early, smaller bucks later...but not always. I dont think that timing was that predictable, but I do know this much...antlers always shed earlier if the buck, or the herd, is stressed. Body trauma to an individual deer, or poor condition, harsh conditions, etc, to the herd. Here INSIDE my enclosures, all but three bucks have shed, including my button bucks. The remaining three are two yearlings and a soon-to-be six year old. OUTSIDE the fence, most of my friends are growing impatient as they havent found much for antlers, and many, like you guys, are still seeing bucks carrying bone. By the way, just to clarify...photoperiodism, the amount of light per day, is not sunlight vs darker days. Its the annual increase and decrease of the light vs dark sequence, the measureable daytime and nighttime. Its the same measure that triggers animals to grow a new coat, for example.

RE: Bucks still packing
 

I did a little poking around... this may shed (oooh a pun) some light on it. I'll see if I can find anything else...

http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=21
"the specific date when a buck will shed his antlers may be determined more by his individual antler cycle than any other factor. This cycle is independent of other bucks and is believed to be centered on each animal's birth date.
Penned deer studies have allowed scientists to measure the exact dates of antler shedding for individual deer year after year. One study in Mississippi found that individual bucks usually shed their antlers at the same time each year and almost always during the same week. "

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Here's another one...

http://www.huntingmag.com/big_game/antler_031405/

"The shedding period of antlers is lengthy and may occur over several months. One buck might shed antlers in January while another doesn't shed until April. While studying the shedding patterns of a few pen-reared bucks, I noted these individuals tended to shed their antlers about the same time each season.

Finding a matched set of antlers is the Holy Grail of shed hunting. Obviously the highest probability occurs when the sides fall off in close proximity, but determined hunters can sometimes locate them some distance away.
For instance, during a six-year period, one buck shed between February 3 and February 18 each year. He always dropped both antlers during this 15-day period. He carried his largest headgear the last two years, but this did not affect the time of year he shed.
During a three-year span, another buck always shed his antlers from March 2 through March 15--a span of 13 days in which both antlers dropped. The last time I watched him, when he carried a huge 10-point rack, he shed at almost the same day he shed the first year, when he carried six points."

RE: Bucks still packing
 

Bill,
From what you wrote, I would conclude that pen raised deer respond differently than wild deer. In my observations of wild deer, I have seen that larger racked bucks will hold longer than sub bucks. I have witnessed bachelor groups on many occasions in March, (this is always my luck, no hunting then) and the smaller bodied individuals are almost always the ones with empty sockets, and the bucks with headgear intact almost always have a heck of a nice rack. Again, my observations. I do not wish toignore scientific study. Did Latitiude factor in any of these studies? I have seen smallish bucks in March with one side missing. I have not seen a larger buck with one side missing as of yet. I have gone shed hunting several times in mid-Feb over the years and have never found a thing. Would the severity of the winter have any effect?

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Sylvan,
Did the article address the shedding of velvet? Is there as wide a window for velvet shedding as antler shedding? I always thought velvet shedding was based on the photoperiod too. Did the penned deer get studied for velvet too?
Thanks for the info, you never disappoint.
I guess we found a new topic to fill this empty period of our lives.:D

RE: Bucks still packing
 

livbucks,
I must confess I didn't actually read either of the articles I posted the snippets from. I only did a quick search to find something relating to what I had read years ago and posted it for you. I'll also have to admit that I'm pretty ignorant about this subject. I've found maybe a dozen sheds in all my years and all of them quite by accident. Only 1 of them, from a real nice heavy 8 point, do I know when it was dropped and it was during the late PA bow season. I found it years ago under one of my fathers apple treesin plain view of my bedroom window. I was tickled to find it but disappointed to think that I would be sitting in the cold in my tree stand and bucks were already dropping their antlers.

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I have heard stories of guys shooting a nice buck and when they try to drag it out, the horns snap off and they have to drag it like a doe. We have killed many late season bucks in my familyandnothing like this has ever happened to any of us. Thank goodness!

RE: Bucks still packing
 

We had deer shedding during the late Dec muzzy season here in SE MA, some big deer. Other areas of the statewhere more normal.

Dosn't food and stress play factors as well ??

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Livbucks, I guess my observations might only conclude one thing...you cant say its this way or that, as it still seems to vary. I always wrote down the shed dates of all my bucks. Some would go almost to the day for two or three years in a row, only to become random for a couple years afterward. Ill ALWAYS say this, the animals health and condition is the only thing that can dictate early shedding. Like these guys said, seeing November shedding, I too see this from my perspective as a taxidermist. I always saw body trauma with early shedding. I had a buck shed his buttons in March, his yearling rack in February, his two year old antlers in December, and this years rack in March. I had a five year old that was pretty consistent for a few years, then last year he shed one side January 1st and the other side February 1st. This year he shed both sides together in March. Another five year old shed in April two years ago, late February last year, and still has this years antlers as of today.

I see no correlation between velvet shedding and antler shedding either. They all seem to shed velvet about 2 weeks after their summer coat sheds out, usually around the first of September. Some will skin the velvet off a bit, prematurely, and finish shedding because of this. But like I said, I cant predict when a late shedding buck will go, but I can see poor condition animals shedding early.

Somebody asked if harsh winters makes a difference. Yes, I think so. But to me, harsh isnt cold vs warm. Heavy and prolonged snow cover makes it harsh as they dont find the feed the same way. Really really cold can stress them too, as they use more energy to keep warm. But cold to us is different than cold to deer. Also, unseasonably warm temps can also be tough on deer, as they still have a winter coat.

I learned something from having live deer. I used to think that whatever I saw was the RULE. Now Im starting to realize that what I am seeing only proves one thing...there are many more variables to those rules!

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My nephew and his wife saw a monster buck last year on my place, that still had both side on Easter Sunday. No wonder I couldn't find them the day before when I was looking specifically for his antlers! I haven't found any yet this year either -- I went looking just last week.

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Thanks Bill,
Must be nice having some deer in your pen all the time to study. I would never get any work done though if I had some too. I would be fixated on them all day every day. I used to visit a deer pen at Lantz Corners, PA many years ago and had a hard time walking away. It's a wonder I didn't end up sleeping there beside the fence.
I never could make any success out of shed hunting.
Thanks for the insight.

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I would expect a difference in shed trends between wild and pen deer.

Wild bucks shed based on a multitude of factors. One is most certainly as Bill described, the stress of the winter, and rut. D & DH had a nice article (either Ozoga, or Alsheimer, 2004I believe) stating that bucks which are active during the rut, and those stressed through winter will drop earlier than those who are not active in the rut, and are not stressed by winter. If I remember correctly it had to do with the relative rate of hormones being reduced or increased within the buck's system.

I can certainly see how photo plays a role as well. It only makes sense that the same guiding principles in fur/coat growth has a similar effect on antler shedding.

Individual characteristics are a neat topic. It'd be informative to have a buck in the wild studied, and then put in captive pens to compare differences, and vice versa. That info could be of use to help clarify the process and timing more accurately.

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I get into a delicate situation with things like this, as I dont mean to sound disrespectful, or full of myself...I respect Ozoga, and have known Charlie for years, I remember where he used to photograph his deer before he had his own. But, I have to go with what I see, too, no offense to the experts. Whether its a captive herd in Bath NY, the Cusino Enclosure in Mich or my pens, or all the wild deer we also watch, Im just saying what I see. I have picked up somewhere near 500 sheds in my travels. Most of the statements we all have posted here in this thread ARE accurate to some degree. The only thing Im saying is this, its just not always that way. Throw out stats, studies, and others opinion...really. I kiddingly say "Hormones, shmornomes!" I have bucks the do my breeding that carried antlers longer than bucks of equal age, held back. In the wild we watch a few that defy "the rules" too.

If there IS one solid rule, like Ive said, it seems to be the one about stressed/injured deer shedding earlier. Now, HOW early? Thats another debate! Remember stories of locked bucks found dead, and upon picking up the skulls, one antler will shed off the buck that looked like it was alive longer? Stuff like that is worth remembering...

I think we all want there to be more clear rules to define when and where those antlers will be. I read the same stories you guys do about checking fence because they get jarred "loose", etc. I watch deer spar, or shake their heads, and not shed. Later that day there they stand, minus an antler that was obviously solid just a whilebefore! Think of it THIS way, guys...these contradictions to the rules, that Im suggesting, will give you some leeway when you come home empty from time to time!

Heres my "unofficial" theory for sheds this year. If your area is set up like my region is, youll probably see lots of guys finding one or two, etc, but not too many guys picking up a ton of them. They are spread out a bit more this season, due in part to less snowpack and a more mild winter. If food sources are spread out, so too will be those deer...and those sheds. Now, should I mention how many times Ive found where fox and coyotes have carried off sheds to other areas? I know, "Oh no, not MORE variables!"

I agree with Phade, this is a neat topic.

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[ol][*]Heres my "unofficial" theory for sheds this year. If your area is set up like my region is, youll probably see lots of guys finding one or two, etc, but not too many guys picking up a ton of them. They are spread out a bit more this season, due in part to less snowpack and a more mild winter. If food sources are spread out, so too will be those deer...and those sheds.
[hr]
[/ol]Ditto