mlo3135127

Good post Flairball.

vtbuckrulrss

sorry, but i think you both are missing the bigger picture. yes, what these, or anyone else that does this thing, people broke the law. no one is denying this. but the main point, for me, of this whole thread would be this: if someone lives in an area that is low on a particular species, and foulplay is suspected in their decline, and an officer can catch someone in the act of lowering the population, he should ARREST RIGHT THEN AND THERE, NOT LET THE SPECIES BE FURTHER DECIMATED! if you have twenty deer in an area, and watch a half a dozen( not the case in this instance) get slaughtered, that's just as bad in my mind. the warden has just contributed to their further decline, not helped it out at all. this is what i am getting at. he has a case after the first one got dropped, so why let the further decimation continue? just for a better case? why not let them shoot them all, and have an even stronger case? no deer, but a good case, ya that makes sense.

Flairball

What doesn't make sense is your story. What were these guys arrested for? You never really say. What species is in Question? Your story is vague, and I doubt many people here understand what really happened other than a CO went undercover and arrested two criminals who happen to befriends of yours. Why don't you quit skirting around the real issues involved and tell us what speciesthese criminalspoached.

vtbuckrulrss

flairball, i think that you are just looking for an arguement, and THAT doesn't make sense.it is a simple, straight forward question, looking for a simple, straight answer. in the issue of when an undercover officer encounters a person violating the law, should the violators be arrested on the spot, regardless of the species being taken, where it takes place, on only God cares which continent,whether i know them or not, or should he wait while more animals get killed off, just to be able to bring up more charges upon the individual? ( i wrote that out slowto make it clear for some.) i say arrest them on the spot! as to what the charges were, it doesn't make a difference, an offense is an offense, so it shouldn't matter what the species were. but just in case it does matter to some, here are the charges, with names removed:

PERP1)
Five counts of night hunting
One count of exceed the bag limit on bear
One count of hunting bear without a license

PERP#2
One count of possession of prohibited implement; deer Snare
One count of night hunting
One count of possession of deer killed in the night time

PERP#3
One count of false registration of bear
One count of hunting migratory waterfowl w/out permit
One count of possession of a deer killed in the night
One count of possession of unlabeled gift deer
One count of a Loaded gun in a motor vehicle

one of them is also facing a fedral charge for shooting a seal, it was not my friend. i believe that is all of the charges.

Flairball

I'm not looking for an arguement, I've just got a really low tolerance forB.S. and I call it like I see it. So, again I'll answer your question. The CO's should wait as long as they need to issure they make a bust of substance, rather than flying in at the littlest of infactions. By waiting they do more good to the sport of hunting, for the welfare of the wildlife, and for the safety of other hunter. Busting criminals for little infractions allows the criminal to be out of jail sooner, and makes them wiser as to the operations of the warden service, hence more easily able to avoid the COs. Are you happy now? Your question has been answered. I doubt it's what you wanted to hear though.

bawanajim

PERP1)
Five counts of night hunting
One count of exceed the bag limit on bear
One count of hunting bear without a license

PERP#2
One count of possession of prohibited implement; deer Snare
One count of night hunting
One count of possession of deer killed in the night time

PERP#3
One count of false registration of bear
One count of hunting migratory waterfowl w/out permit
One count of possession of a deer killed in the night
One count of possession of unlabeled gift deer
One count of a Loaded gun in a motor vehicle

one of them is also facing a fedral charge for shooting a seal, it was not my friend. i believe that is all of the charges.

_____________________________

With that list of charges I don't believe you admit to knowing these guys.It sounds like the sting ended when these morons could not find any more laws to break.They poached about every animal up there .I hope the fines are enough that they never ever hunt again.You seem to be blinded by the light on this one. These slobs poached bear,deer ducks & a seal while drinking and you claim entrapment.
I can only guess they never drove by a bank durning this crime spree because I am sure the warden would have had them hitting it too.

Instead of entrapment they should plead insanity

PABuck_HNTR

Although laws were certainly broken and they deserve to be punished...the original post sounds like entrapment to me. Just my .02

AJ52

This is a scenerio that takes place during Deer season;

So - the UC agent goes Under Cover to catch "suspected" perps.Both perps have been busted for minor infractions before,but now highly suspect for more serious illegal activities. Use your immagination and think of the worst and these 2 guys are prime suspects.

So - His 1st day out UC spots these 2 clowns with no blaze orange(illegal here,400 sq" + hat) walkin to truck with shot guns in hand.Both perps are seen leaving a WMA from a "No Hunting" refuge. He then sees the guys eject 5 shells each from there slug slingin shot guns(illegal here,only 3 shells allowed with plug inserted).Both guys then lean there weapons against vehicle(illegal here).They get in vehicle and drive off.UC sets up road block down road and apprehends both perps.

Now - these 2 clowns go to court with attny in tow and get smacked with $500 fines each,revoked hunting for 6 months.

Fish and Game made the bust - Johnny on the Spot,got convictions - BUT did they catch the perps that they highly supected of more serious crimes - NO! These 2 guys are back in the woods in 6 months or sooner if they disregard hunting revocation.

How do you suppose Fish and Game should get these clowns outa the woods for 5yrs+ or maybe some jail time.Stop them from breaking game laws and stealing MY legal game.

Nord QC Bouman

The law is claer from a couple of perspectives. The law enforcement officer cannot enter into any illegal activites during an investigation. They are obligated to arrest either on the 1st violation encountered, or in the case ofundercover ops,make the arrest at a predetermined occurance. Either way they cannot participatein illegal acts during an investigation.

Secondly, the law clearly states that one (and there are several) articles on entrapment include cohersion to commit criminal acts through demonstrated participation.

Without these laws not only would a robust democratic process be gone, but many would see law enforcement as a more appealing job.

I am speaking only for US jurisdications.

AJ52

Nord,
What law is Clear and where?? - What State is the law Clear??

Where,How and Why cannot a law enforcement off enter into an illegal activity during an invest??

I'm very interested in where and how these laws apply.

My scenrio should have been more concise.I did not refer to any "entrapment or cohersion".I was referring to a "Deer Season".

What is the definition of a "Predetermined Occcurance" and Where??

You need to be more specific.