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Another PA DEER Article
This is a few days old but I didnt see it on here. A long read, but more fat for you boys to chew on,,, ;)
Radio collars indicate hunters weren't finding the deer Sportsmen have complained of a scarcity. In the Sproul study area, however, hunters passed up 90 pct. of the does. By Don Sapatkin Inquirer Staff Writer If you want to turn up the volume of an already raucous debate over the future of deer hunting, equip a bunch of does with radio transmitters and follow them through all the just ended hunting seasons. Then tell longtime sportsmen who insist almost no deer are left in Sproul State Forest that they apparently missed a whole lot of them. Researchers at Penn State University were surprised by their preliminary finding, which showed that hunters didn't see or passed up more than 90 percent of the does in the Sproul study area. So were deer experts in other states, who said far higher doe kills would normally be required to control the population. The small sample size could be skewing results. The top deer manager at the Pennsylvania Game Commission, a cosponsor of the continuing study, said the statistic wasn't useful and he could not infer anything from it. The report, which applies only to the areas studied, is certain to come up for discussion and interpretation tomorrow in Harrisburg, the commission's annual public comment period after hunting season. One question typically dominates the afternoon: Are there too many or too few whitetail deer in the Big Woods? (Everyone agrees that there are far too many in the suburbs.) Several years ago, agency biologists began a crash program in herd reduction. They said ravenous deer had destroyed so much vegetation that some forests could neither regenerate nor supply enough food to sustain the animals through harsh winters. Last January, tradition-minded sportsmen complained bitterly about sharp declines in deer sightings. Some blamed overzealous biologists, and predicted that disillusionment would thin the volunteer army needed to keep deer in check. The commissioners backed down just enough to satisfy virtually no one. A new executive director, Carl Roe, took over the agency on Jan. 1. Roe, 57, who spent his childhood around the Philadelphia suburbs, said this week that improving communication and credibility on deer issues with hunters and the general public would be top priorities. The credibility gap is wide. Some sportsmen say the hunting was even worse this past season. License sales were down 7 percent through November, with resignation likely part of the reason. "People are not seeing deer and they are not getting deer," said Bill Miller, 62, a mechanical engineer from Roxborough and president of the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania, a constant thorn in the side of the game commission. Miller owns a cabin on 25 acres adjoining Tioga State Forest, not far from the New York border. These Big Woods of north-central Pennsylvania rose from early 20th-century clear-cuts. The forests generated more and more deer - and hunters - as they matured over generations. People bought land; traditions were reinforced; deer boomed. Last year's 56 percent drop in total harvest for the region hit hunters with the wallop that investors might get from a stock market crash. North-central cemented its reputation as the most egregious example in the too many vs. too few debate. Scientists, meanwhile, began studying the interrelationships among deer, hunters, terrain and other variables that affect wildlife biologists' success in managing growth of the herd. "What I find most interesting," said Duane Diefenbach, who teaches wildlife ecology at Penn State and is assistant director of the Pennsylvania Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit, "is to see where hunters are and where deer are harvested." How far will hunters drag a doe carcass uphill to a road? How often can deer elude them by hiding in thick laurel? What percentage of does survive from one year to the next? Diefenbach and Christopher Rosenberry, head of the game commission's deer management team, designed a two-year, multifaceted study in the poor habitat of Sproul State Forest and, for comparison, in somewhat healthier Tuscarora State Forest to the south: Radio-collared does would be monitored twice a week to confirm survival or estimate location and cause of death. The movements of a small number, fitted with global positioning system devices, would be mapped in detail. Twice a day during the main deer season, a low-flying Cessna would carry observers trained to detect the glow of hunters' orange safety vests through vermilion glasses. GPS-linked laptops would display 3-D images so hunters' locations could be charted like the target of a smart bomb. With year one nearly completed, preliminary data for Sproul show that 54 radio-collared does were "on air" before the first hunting season, four were killed by hunters, and all the rest were accounted for. Hunters harvested just 7.4 percent of available does. Populations are reduced by ensuring that more deer are removed each year through mortality than are added through births. Managers estimate deaths from natural causes, then set hunting goals to make up the difference. Killing does, which produce one or two fawns a year, is most efficient. Matt Keenan, a graduate student who is coordinating the study for his master's thesis, wondered whether traditional hunters were simply refusing to shoot does, or perhaps enthusiasm was lagging. He's noticed that sportsmen in Pennsylvania complain about deer that are far more abundant than where he's hunted in Vermont, New York and Massachusetts. Bryon Shissler, a wildlife biologist and consultant, said the harvest rate showed that poor habitat, not hunting, was responsible for most mortality, and he questioned whether recreational hunters had the skills or commitment to kill enough deer to save dying forests. Shissler is close to Gary Alt, the biologist who set up an aggressive deer program but quit a year ago as a hunter backlash grew. Both now say they believe the game commission's mission and structure - charged with managing all wildlife but funded largely by hunting license-sales - are incompatible: hunters wield too much power. Diefenbach cautioned against focusing on the numbers, particularly after just one year. He said the issue is habitat survival, for deer and everything else. "They're talking about whether there are too many or too few and skipping over the question of how many should there be?" Online and on Cable |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
Some thoughts as to why the percentage of does killed was not higher.
1. The aerial flyovers with Infrared mapping of deer showed that preseason populations in Sproul State Forest were in the five to ten deer per square mile range. With populations this low, hunting is really a lot tougher than when there were four times as many. 2. We start hunting with guns for deer in October now with the early muzzleloader season, the last few days of which we have kids with rifles. I know many don't want to hear this, but the deer are scared early on and are more wary than they used to be when we didn't hunt them with rifles until after Thanksgiving. I know that the deer where I hunt are more wary. Yours might be different. 3. I don't hunt in Sproul, but in the area of southern Huntingdon County where I do hunt, I am finding much more sign than I thought I would, based upon the numbers of deer I saw during the fall seasons. There are more deer out there than I am seeing. I see no reason for Sproul to be different. I estimate that our overwintering population is between ten and fifteen deer per square mile. My estimate is very much unscientific. I hope we get some snow so I can do a better inventory. 4. I don't believe hunters are refusing to shoot does, at least not huge numbers of hunters are doing so. The hunters around here are killing what they see, and many are killing the first deer they see. A few, like me, hold out for a few days to see if they can get a nice buck and turn to doe hunting later in the first week. I can afford to do so since I am retired and hunt every day. Many can't. As to hunters hunting hard, I have this story to relate. I shot my eight point on the second Thursday of rifle season. After I hung the deer at my camp and was skinning it, a truck stopped in my driveway. Two "hunters" got out and one asked me, "Where the hell did you get that one?" I replied, "High up on the mountain in the foot rocks." His reply, "No deer is worth that climb." Obviously, we disagree. Not many nice eight points are taken from the front seat of a pickup unless at night. |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
I'm not siding with any one on this issue. I do find the following statement hilarious. How many is a "bunch of deer". Is it 10 - 20 - 50.
It goes on to say hunters didn't see or passed up more than 90% of the deer(bunch of deer I presume). What does "passed up" mean in the Penn state study. Is this what Penn State calls a study ![]() equip a bunch of does with radio transmitters and follow them through all the just ended hunting seasons. |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
AJ,
Read the entire article and you'll find your answer. ;) With year one nearly completed, preliminary data for Sproul show that 54 radio-collared does were "on air" before the first hunting season, four were killed by hunters, and all the rest were accounted for. Hunters harvested just 7.4 percent of available does. |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
"It goes on to say hunters didn't see or passed up more than 90% of the deer(bunch of deer I presume). What does "passed up" mean in the Penn state study."
My take on it would be that either the hunters didn't see the does in question or they decided not to shoot them (passed them up). Either way, fifty out of the fifty-four does starting the study were alive when hunting season was over. |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
I have a slightly different take on the situation.Ilive and hunt in 2G and saw more deer preeason and more sign this year than last year.Ihad 15 oppourtunities to kill deer this season but I didn't see as many asI did prior to herd reductions.Three thing will always effect deer movement.1 weather2.pressure3. food availability.I personally thought archery season was warmer and windier than usual and the first two days of rifle season were lousy in places.Pressure wasso low in every place where I huntedand you need hunters to move deer.The mast crop was heavy and widespread.The deer simplydidn't have to travel to find deer.I have to admit that post season,I'm seeing alot of deer and alot of sign.Next year should be a great year,especially considering that the deer went into winter in good shape and this winter is so mild.I have no complaints at all.
I don't believe that the early muzzleloader season has had any effect on spooking the deer.There used to be far more small game hunters shooting the woods up not toomany years ago.i don't know if I've ever seen a muzzleloader hunter in the woods when I was archery hunting. |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
How many hunters knew you could kill the deer with radio collars on ?
Most hunters I know do notshoot if they don't know if it is legal. |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
ihunt up there and werent many hunters up there this year i hunted there for 3 years and yet to see abuck so i didnt go this year but there is buck sign and since i m out of state i can only hunt bucks
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RE: Another PA DEER Article
Doesn't matter how many deer were or weren't shot if the number of hunters is unknown. If 8 hunters harvested 8 doe, then the success rate is 100%. If 100 hunters harvested 8 doe, then the success rate is 8%.This is the same area of the Sproul that had the GPSstudy done a few years ago to gauge the whereabouts of hunters. I don't remember the exact average, but it was something like 1/3 of a mile from the road. What they don't tell you is that this area is extremely rugged terrain and most hunters that have earned enough vacation time to stay at camp for a week or two are old enough to think twice about getting more than 1/3 of a mile up the mountain.
If these people are going to spend our money to do studies, thenI wish they'd do them in a scientific manner so that theresults would be meaningfull. |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
Ah - Yes I now see the 54(bunch of deer).I guess I was LMAO so hard I missed the 54.
Still can't figure out what is so scientific about the harvest vs deer radio tagged.Did they survey the hunters before or after the harvest or advise hunters there were xx taged deer for a study - I better go back and check article one more time. |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
ORIGINAL: High Country Kid If these people are going to spend our money to do studies, thenI wish they'd do them in a scientific manner so that theresults would be meaningfull. I am sure they only spent a few hundred hours designing this study in a manner that would generate the most statistically significant data they could without "wasting to much of our(your)money". Is this study perfect..absolutely not, and I am sure the authors clearly state that along with the accompanying results. However to suggest that the study was somehow done in an unscientific manner is simply not correct. |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
I hunt in the specific area, my camp and hunting ground is surrounded by Sproul, There was 6 of us at camp and we did not see a deer in three days, buck , doe , or anything else. I saw 6 or 7 on Sat night with a spotlight where I used to see 75.... I hunt pretty well back in, the deer are not there...period...
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RE: Another PA DEER Article
AJ and others who are criticizing the study as not being scientific, please note the source of the article that was originally posted. It was the Philadelphia Inquirer, which quoted a "press release" from the PGC. You did not read the study itself, but only what some bureaucrat thought might be interesting and what some reporter thought might be interesting. If it appears that the report in the Inquirer and on the PGC website is unscientific, perhaps you should criticize the reporters. I would like to see the report on the study put together by the Penn State team before I pass judgement.
If in fact the report says what the reporter says it says, it will be hard to convince those who hunt in the area that there are deer there that they didn't see. I am very sure that there are deer in the area I hunt that I didn't see, but can't speak for the Sproul. |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
Verygood response Patryk, I couldn't agree with you more.
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RE: Another PA DEER Article
I emailed the professor at Penn State and asked where I could get a copy of the study report. I will let you know when I hear something.
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RE: Another PA DEER Article
I dont hunt Sproul but I hunt similar terrain in the ANF and can tell you that hunter numbers are a mere fraction of what they once were and our deer sightings are down as well.
Some possible explanations Hunting pressure in gun season has lessened to the degree that we no longer have deer bouncing around the woods like pinballs trying to avoid humans. On the other hand, the hunting pressure is enough to let the deer know we're there and they tend to hole up. This makes the old Pa tradition of stump sitting till the deer come by much less effective. deer feeding on mast will natuarlly feed randomly without concentrating into any particular area as opposed to deer that move to a crop field daily tofeed and can be patterned. Habitat, and consequently deer numbers have crashed in certain areas contributing to the no deer arguement for some spots. I've seen less deer around my camp in recent years and yet the area directly behindit has so much deer scat that you can hardlywalk through my property without stepping on pellets. Could be that our traditional hunting methodsrequire some adjusting? |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
I fully realize the Phil Inq in all likelyhood added,deleted,edited info that might have made the study appear more pallable to a seasoned/hunter.The fact remains that 50 some deer were tagged and the report indicates only a handful of deer were taken.Hello - Wheres the Beef! It certainly appears a criticism to the hunters.
I would like to read details of study - It does sound interesting. BUT - just because a study was conducted by Penn State or any other insitutution of learning does not imply without impunity the methods used or data gathered are an absolute indicater of hunter sucess or failure. |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
I wish someone would do a study that will give me a relationship correlation between the number of deer I see, versus the total number of deer in the area--- example-- this WMU has a sight value of 12. This means that if you saw one deer, there were actually 12 deer around.
This would make me feel SOOOOO much better, knowing that the two tails I saw actually meant there were 24 deer around, and that I'm just too poor of a hunter to see them. (Probably because I didn"t get back in far enough---). |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
AJ:
Should you be interested, the link to the PSU website where wildlife research is posted is as follows:http://pacfwru.cas.psu.edu/ The study in question is not up there yet as it is not finished. I emailed Dr. Diefenbach yesterday and I have copied his reply below. I hope this helps. George "Thank you for your inquiry, but this research is ongoing and no formal reports have been completed at this time. The research is scheduled to continue for at least another year.[/align] [/align] You can find some information about this project on the Pennsylvania Game Commission's website http://www.pgc.state.pa.us (see news releases and pages under 'deer' and 'wildlife').[/align] [/align] Also, the final reports and publications, as they become available, will be posted on the Coop Unit's website http://pacfwru.cas.psu.edu. However, as I mentioned there won't be anything available for many months.[/align] [/align] Regards,[/align] [/align] Duane Diefenbach"[/align] |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
Deer sign will tell the story in a given area if you know it well enough and actually cover a good amount of ground.Deer don't fly so they do let sign.That's how I determine the numbers on the ground.It works.
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RE: Another PA DEER Article
I read it. Interesting.Alot of variables to consider when dealing with tagged Deer/Animals/Prey vs Humans/Hunters/Predators vs XXXX other factors.
I saw a number of variables in this years(private farm)Jan Deer seasons that advesely affected Deer sightings and kills compared to last years Jan seasons. When you sit down and brain storm all the factors filter them,you then come up with a reasonable hypothesis on WHY that includes some stupid human factors. I hope all these Penn State Guru's consider many of the variables. For now it looks like we'll have to wait. |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
Having done a bit of research, AJ, I can tell you that it is impossible to eliminate all of the variable factors in ecosystems. In fact, an ecosystem is a huge collection of variables. I suspect that one could find a variable in any ecology based PhD dissertation that was overlooked if one tried hard enough.
Hunters themselves are so variable that the only way to make sense out of data is to collect as much as one can and then establish an average. For example, I suspect I am not a typical hunter. I look for the steepest, roughest, hardest to hunt places. I seldom see any other hunters, even on the first day of rifle season. Now, throw in deer, who individually don't behave the way you expect them to all the time. You can see what a challenge the researchers have, and I think they are to be commended for even trying it. |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
ORIGINAL: patrkyhntr Having done a bit of research, AJ, I can tell you that it is impossible to eliminate all of the variable factors in ecosystems. In fact, an ecosystem is a huge collection of variables. I suspect that one could find a variable in any ecology based PhD dissertation that was overlooked if one tried hard enough. Hunters themselves are so variable that the only way to make sense out of data is to collect as much as one can and then establish an average. For example, I suspect I am not a typical hunter. I look for the steepest, roughest, hardest to hunt places. I seldom see any other hunters, even on the first day of rifle season. Now, throw in deer, who individually don't behave the way you expect them to all the time. You can see what a challenge the researchers have, and I think they are to be commended for even trying it. patrkyhntr, I have hunted thehills whereyou hunt, but I like the mountains of Cameron Co. I can climb for over 2000ft. walkwhat seems like endless flats and drag my buck 4 or 5 miles. I know lots of hunters that hunt that way in the big woods, I know to you it may seem like you are the only one that hunts like that but you are not. :D |
RE: Another PA DEER Article
It just seems that way sometimes, my friend. Welcome to the club. Do you see many hunters where you hunt?
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RE: Another PA DEER Article
ORIGINAL: patrkyhntr It just seems that way sometimes, my friend. Welcome to the club. Do you see many hunters where you hunt? You know the best part of our style of hunting is that you did not have to see a deer to have a good hunt. ;) |
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