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Could it be that overhunting is not the problem in PA?

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Could it be that overhunting is not the problem in PA?

Old 01-14-2006, 06:05 PM
  #1  
Giant Nontypical
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Default Could it be that overhunting is not the problem in PA?

I've seen results from two studies that scould suggest that all the increased hunting days and doe tags may not be the only culprit causing the crash in population that the north central guys are experiencing. First, the doe mortality study found that hunters killed only 8% of the collared doesin 2G. Then a study of coyote scat shows that around 92% of coyote scat in 2G contains deer remains while the average for the rest of the state is 55%.

Statewide it breaks down like this

deer 55.2%
Mice/ voles14%
cottontails 9.4%
woodchuck9.4%
raccon 5.5%
Squirrel 5.2%
porcupine 2.9%
fox 2.6%
beaver 1.3%

remeber when the PGC said coyotes dont hurt the deer herd?


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Old 01-14-2006, 06:23 PM
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Default RE: Could it be that overhunting is not the problem in PA?

Are you joking?
Remember last year when I told you about seeing a huge yote in 2001 trying to bring down a healthy doe? The doe was with her fawn and the yote went for the adult. They are really doing a job on the deer up in the ANF. I have seen it personally. I shot a 60 pound male in the same spot the following year. These yotes are huge, nothing like thelittle thingsout west. Can you imagine how many fawns are eaten in the big woods every spring between the yotes and bears? If mt. lions start coming too you might as well give up deer hunting up North.
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Old 01-15-2006, 05:47 AM
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Default RE: Could it be that overhunting is not the problem in PA?

I'll use an area I hunt in 2E which borders 2G.We used to have great rabbit hunting there.You couldn't ask for better rabbit habitat and that still holds true today.Then we started seeing yote scat with rabbit fur.Then we started seeing and hearing yotes.It's been a few years since we jumped a rabbit.They did a job to them.
This year myson shot a buck and the next day his gut pile was completely gone.Nothing but yote tracks left.So they are doing well in our area.I've seen them chase adult deer also.
In places like this and 2G the low deer populations is a result and overharvesting.LET'S FACE IT,THE LESS DEER THERE ARE THE MORE PRESSURE IT PUTS ON THE FEW REMAINING FROM THIS COYOTE POPULATION.Because of this in areas with higher coyote numbers the number of anterless tags should be cut even more next year.
Coyote numbers should be taken into consideration when they approve the anterless tag numbers for each WMU.
The coyote population has increased.The deer population has decreased.Like I said,it only puts more pressure on the few deer remaining.
To answer the original question BT,hunting took the numbers down and then the coyotes compounded the low populations.IMHO
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Old 01-15-2006, 05:58 AM
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Default RE: Could it be that overhunting is not the problem in PA?

I forgot to mention the collar study.
This was done in a rugged area.Without finding the remaining deer they assume hunters only killed a certain number.They should have waited for the important information left out with the deer they haven't located.With coyote populations so high in that area I'm surprised they came to such a quick conclusion.
Not to mention other possibilities.In the big woods deer will travel to gas lines and the back roads to feed in the evening.This let's the door open for poaching which has increased in recent years.I highly doubt a poacher will report a collared deer.
From what I have seen and heard,without a doubt given access hunters will decrease the herd.That's been proven all over the state and I think they can be that question to rest.Even in the remote mountains they've done the job that everybody wanted them to.
I don't expect them to find the remaining deer.Other then button buck dispersal we all know a deer's range is limited.
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Old 01-15-2006, 07:12 AM
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Default RE: Could it be that overhunting is not the problem in PA?

The fact that there are deer still unaccounted for does make the published results suspect. You are also correct that a does home range isnt that big.

My camp is on the southwesterncorner of the ANF. The thing that keeps me wondering about that area is that I've seen deer numbers decliningonly relatively recently but hunter pressure began declining a long time ago and has dropped off way further, proportionately,than our deer sightings. And forget about the longer season because hunters are virtually nonexistent after the first day of rifle season in any of the ANF we hunt. Early archery and muzzy season? Just come to the ANF if you want to be alone.

There's no one answer but I think the yotes are hitting way harder than most of us realized and the habitat destruction has also had a devastating effect. I really believe that the longer doe season and increased tag allotments come in a distant third asa contributing factor.

JMHO
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Old 01-15-2006, 08:40 AM
  #6  
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Default RE: Could it be that overhunting is not the problem in PA?

It's an interesting thought BT.I was hunting Potter when the bonus program started.In two years you could definately see the difference.Our sightings went from an average of 20+ deer a day to around three.So we headed south to southern 2G and northern 2E.Deer were plentiful.Then serious herd reduction kicked in.The populations headed down in a hurry.So based on my observations in these areas herd reductions through hunting worked.But,now the yotes have less deer to kill so it's compoundingthe damage they are doing to the remaining population.
I think that explains the lack of growth in the deer herd in the areas you describe where hunting pressure isn't heavy enough to continue her reductions.It makes sense to me.
Do you feel the number of tags in these areas should be reduced to compensate for the high yote kills?

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Old 01-15-2006, 09:49 AM
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Default RE: Could it be that overhunting is not the problem in PA?

Do you feel the number of tags in these areas should be reduced to compensate for the high yote kills?
Yes and no. First and foremost, we need smaller WMU's then we need SELECTIVE tag reductions.
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Old 01-15-2006, 06:01 PM
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Default RE: Could it be that overhunting is not the problem in PA?

the hunters here in pa.are the real predator. with lack of deer ,still most want or have killed a doe this year.last 3 years here in 2g was terrible.massive doe and fawn killing. tons of tags for doe,early muzzleloader season, 2 weeks of doe in regular rifle season. now no deer. fawns are being shot, coyotes are killing fawns and early muzzlwloader season is taking doethat are not bred or are bred.thats fawns for next year.i did not see 1fawn from sept to now,not 1. no doubt the coyotes are taking toll on deer,i saw 5 coyotes last week of muzzleloader.i saw deer hair in the poo and found deer hair but no deer. coyotes clean up deer real good. i have never seen so many coyotes in last 3 years than i ever did in 50 years hunting,never. tracks are all over. it is hard for me to believe they migrated in to pa. all of sudden they were here in great numbers. state of pa. wants deer all gone, they are close to getting their way here in wmu2g, take care
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Old 01-16-2006, 01:17 AM
  #9  
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Default RE: Could it be that overhunting is not the problem in PA?

Is it time to start really wacking the heck out of the coyote population? It sure sounds that way to me. If a great percentage of the coyotes diet is deer (and it seems it is) and the deer population in those areas goes down, the yotes are going to go looking at the dining cart in other areas.

Sounds like some gov't folks need to take their heads out of "dark & smelly places" and get a handle on this problem.
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Old 01-16-2006, 09:18 AM
  #10  
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Default RE: Could it be that overhunting is not the problem in PA?

we need to go back to bounty on fox and coyotes.50 dollars would be a real help to trappers.most i talked to stopped because of the gas prices. problem is ,everytime you try to do anything,its MONEY.no one wants to spend money to fix anything,yet we will buy 600 dollar guns, new chevy trucks, best ammo, clothes,etc. some suggested poison the coyotes, i am for this too but then some said, the BEAR will eat it, bobcats too,raccons etc. any suggestion is met with oppostion here in pa. truth is, coyotes are killing deer, grouse,rabbits,pheasants,squraiels. bobcats are killing grouse, rabbits, squireals. fox are killing grouse, rabbits,squireals. when we had lots of small game we did not notice this as much.also there was bounty on fox. NOW,no bounty and hardly any small game here in pa. so, you see the problem more now do to lack of game.as i said, i did not see 1 fawn from sept to jan12 in WMU 2g.take care.
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