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-   -   NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions? (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/northeast/118612-ny-do-u-think-we-should-have-antler-restrictions.html)

stretchhunts 01-26-2006 06:06 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
"All deer that are born every year are 50% does and 50% bucks"


Not true. as a doe gets older she tends to only have does. I never believed this untill I`ve seen it for a fact. Since you guys "work" so closley with the DEC please read the thread Atlas started about the NYS DEC STINKS. We`ve asked for meeting with them and haven`t gotten anywhere. Let`s put your pull to the test. :D:)


Here`s a link to the thread. http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1319859

jcchartboy 01-26-2006 06:48 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

"All deer that are born every year are 50% does and 50% bucks"
Not true...


As a doe gets older she tends to only have does.
Also not true...

--------------

The simple facts is that deer like most mammals produce more male offspring than female offspring under normal circumstances. Individual states or areas may vary, however on average throughout their range whitetail deer produce 106 malesfor every 100 females born.

There aretwo major exceptions to this rule. One occurs in areas where the herd has not reached carrying capacity of the land and the females are exceptionally well nourished. Inthis case the whitetails does will give birth to a proponderence of female fawns. The other exception is where the herd is on a starvation diet and not surprisingly the does give birth to a preponderence of buck fawns.

In New York State most habitat would be considered less than ideal in terms of population carrying capacity vs current population. This would likely skew the ratio further toward more buck fawn production if in fact there is any skew at all.

Further adding to the ratio of buck to doe fawns in areas where the overall buck to doe ratio is very low, is the fact that does that are bred late in last stages of their estrous cycle are more likely to give birth to buck fawns.

In summation...The ratio of buck to doe fawns actual favors the production of moremale fawns than females.

NYSHunter 01-26-2006 07:57 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Folks,

I do agree with your positions here, I am on the same side as you and do not mean to offend. I am just discussing withyou what we were told by the DEC in meetings with the Catskill Forest Association. I don’t see where we really disagree here. My point is that the herd needs to be brought down to as close to 1:1 to 1:2ratio as possible. By limiting the buck harvest and increasing the doe harvest, this would be possible.

From what I gather the DEC’s point on this process is that many hunters will not support limiting of buck take and it would cause a lot of problems for them. That buck take limits would in fact decrease license sales and thus hunter participation. Hunter are the main methodfor control of the herds populations. With hunter numbers on the decrease, they have to be very careful.

Regarding the birth rates and herd sex ratios, here is a very good study from Westfield State College that gathered data of birthing rates. http://biology.wsc.ma.edu/biology/students/posters/popmodel/deer/

Phade 01-26-2006 08:29 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jcchartboy


"All deer that are born every year are 50% does and 50% bucks"
Not true...


As a doe gets older she tends to only have does.
Also not true...

--------------

The simple facts is that deer like most mammals produce more male offspring than female offspring under normal circumstances. Individual states or areas may vary, however on average throughout their range whitetail deer produce 106 malesfor every 100 females born.

There aretwo major exceptions to this rule. One occurs in areas where the herd has not reached carrying capacity of the land and the females are exceptionally well nourished. Inthis case the whitetails does will give birth to a proponderence of female fawns. The other exception is where the herd is on a starvation diet and not surprisingly the does give birth to a preponderence of buck fawns.

In New York State most habitat would be considered less than ideal in terms of population carrying capacity vs current population. This would likely skew the ratio further toward more buck fawn production if in fact there is any skew at all.

Further adding to the ratio of buck to doe fawns in areas where the overall buck to doe ratio is very low, is the fact that does that are bred late in last stages of their estrous cycle are more likely to give birth to buck fawns.

In summation...The ratio of buck to doe fawns actual favors the production of moremale fawns than females.
This is on a seperate note unrelated to the AR thread, but it is worth mentioning. There is evidence of birthing traits on m/f birth % as a doe ages. However, there are studies that explain exactly as JCC stated.

FYI JCC, I wish I could give a firm number with evidence, but I remember hearing from a few biologiststhat roughly 30-40% of NY is good habitat for deer (namely the farmlands of WNY, and some sections down towards your end of the state), another 30-40% is not ideal (adirondacks). The remainder is in the middle. I think the mix balances the state as a whole, which the biologists made a point of at last year's seasonal change meetings relating to DMP numbers.

The birthing habits of does is extremely interesting believe it or not. I'd venture to say there is as much information (and misinformation) on that subject that any other facet of deer biology beyond the rut. JCC found some good info there.


Phade 01-26-2006 08:33 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: stretchhunts

"All deer that are born every year are 50% does and 50% bucks"


Not true. as a doe gets older she tends to only have does. I never believed this untill I`ve seen it for a fact. Since you guys "work" so closley with the DEC please read the thread Atlas started about the NYS DEC STINKS. We`ve asked for meeting with them and haven`t gotten anywhere. Let`s put your pull to the test. :D:)


Here`s a link to the thread. http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1319859
I understand the workings of the DEC like any other hunter in the state. Being that I interact with them more often does not require me to enlighten the "unenlightenable"....get my drift?;)Nor does it make me above anyone. I simply have the fortune to leech some of their knowledge, information, and thoughts. So, I'm not above anyone. In fact, I pride myself on it.

A large partof the reason why I am against A/R.

jcchartboy 01-26-2006 08:45 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Regarding the birth rates and herd sex ratios, here is a very good study from Westfield State College that gathered data of birthing rates. http://biology.wsc.ma.edu/biology/students/posters/popmodel/deer/
I read the entire article and could find nothing on sex ratios of bucks/doe fawns...

Is that information supposed to be included in this piece?

jcchartboy 01-26-2006 08:48 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

The birthing habits of does is extremely interesting believe it or not. I'd venture to say there is as much information (and misinformation) on that subject that any other facet of deer biology beyond the rut.
Most of this information can be referenced in..

The Deer of North America
By Leonard Lee Rue III..

Phade 01-26-2006 08:52 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jcchartboy


The birthing habits of does is extremely interesting believe it or not. I'd venture to say there is as much information (and misinformation) on that subject that any other facet of deer biology beyond the rut.
Most of this information can be referenced in..

The Deer of North America
By Leonard Lee Rue III..
I'm familiar with Rue's work. Do you know the last revision of that book?

Another one to check out is Ozoga. He put out some good info in an article in D&DH within the last two years that broke up my longtime stance on doe birthing.

jcchartboy 01-26-2006 09:13 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

I'm familiar with Rue's work. Do you know the last revision of that book?
11/01/2004...

NYSHunter 01-26-2006 09:42 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Table 1 states that their count for their particular sample in PA the 52% male newborn. Tbale 2 shows male newborn at 15,129 and female newborn at 13,965. Statically, it means about 50/50 because the sampleing must have some error rates, but its one study and a particular sample. By no means does it state that all fawns are 50% buck and 50% does. It was just some reasearch that I though some would like to review.


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