RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Stretch - that is my biggest fear with AR and this proposal - that we will make deer hunting either too hard or too expensive for most.
The authors of the proposal suggests much of CNY could offer the bucks of the mid western states. Go to Pike county and see how many locals still can hunt there compared to 10 years ago - not many. The trophy hunters control most all of it and high dollar leases or hunts are the norm.
I would hate for that to happen here.

Steve

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Steve,

With the skyrocketing cost of land upstate, I think it is a likely scenario. The taxes are also going up as well. While I am a landowner, I do invest a lot of time in planting nut and fruit trees and fruit bushes to help the wildlife as well as attract more deer to my property. While I would never harvest any animal that I would not intend for food, I would also really love a nice 120-140 size rack. I think most would.

However, I think that the herd is in very bad shape. The buck to doe ratio must be dealt with ASAP. Taking more does and having limit on bucks will be the only solution to balance the herd. There is no other way that I can think of. Well to do that, you issue more DMP’s and this will reduce the number of does. Then we need toincrease the number of bucksby limiting the harvest.You canlimit the harvest of bucks basedon restrictions of a natural characteristics like antler size or points.

I cannot see any how a three point rule will limit hunting. There simply is no evidence that this is a factor. I am from the Midwest and let me assure you that farmers that sell hunts on their land are doing it because it helps pay the bills. It’s a new and highly profitable source of income.They limitaccess becauseit effects their income. Nothingis for free these days.Many of these hunter/clients that go to the Midwest are East Coasters from NY and PA. We are the ones creating the demand. If we could get 120 to 150 class bucks in NY and the NE, then I would bet there would be much less demand for Midwest hunts and the farmers would be less restrictive of access.

So what is the cause of the land access restrictions that you mentioned? Here in NY, for example, the farmers are selling their farms off to developers. The restriction of land access is due to the real estate market and the high demand for acreage. Lots from 5 to 10 acres are in tremendous demand. In the Catskills, this land was less then a $1000 an acre 5 years ago, today it can get $5K to $20K per acre. These new land owners do not hunt and are posting there land. This is where I see the restrictions that is becoming a crisis for those that want to hunt private land.

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but every question you ask I and others have addressed at least twice in this thread,. If you read the whole thread and feelI have not answered one, then please let me know.

Steve

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Steve,

I dont think that I am asking any questions for you to answer. I am providing a different perspective. I dounderstand your points on the subject and they are valid.

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Killing does in my area sure worked. now that we dont have any does, the bucks are not here and nothing to breed.

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

It would take some years to make the herd ratio more balanced. A mandated restriction of bucks would need to be implementedso the buckpopulation can increase. This does work. So many ranches in the miwest and texas do this and as a result have high deer populations, balanced herds and many mature bucks as a result. They all cant be wrong.

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

That's the difference. I'm not going to engage in this conversation anymore than the one point here for obvious reasons. But there is a difference between private land management and public/state mandate.

Also, the goal of NYS is not to grow trophy bucks like the private ranches are, with high deer population numbers. It is more concerned with biological controls, and a comfortable carrying capacity, with a competent number of bucks ranging through the age classes. Having a 1:1 with mature bucks jumping out every woodlot simply is not their goal.

The balance you speak of theoretical. 1:1/1:2 is this number created by hunters/managers. What evidence is there that proves this ratio has been or would be realized in a natural state ever in recorded history, or future?

Remember the DEC is concerned with management, not balance alone. They want a herd categorized as healthy on a whole. Balance is micro-management in their terms (which they do best by their DMP's). A herd can still be "healthy on a whole"with a ratio beyond 1:2 in biological context. It has been for years, with the up's and down's associated with any given species.

As long as the ratio does not get to alarming levels (I believe at one or two points in the 20th century it did, but that was not from hunting pressure if I remember correctly), carrying capacity will remain the main focus, and ratio a secondary consideration. Putting ratio ahead of carrying capacity is simply not good science when the numbers suggest the ratio is generally healthy on a state level.

Good points on both sides.

*FYI. I think the recent season had a harvest ratio of 1:3. That is directly comparable to the "great" years of 1999-2003. That alone implies the herd has remained in balance over the time, and hasn't changed dynamics much, even through the crap years (04/05). Rather, it is simply smaller due to enviornmental conditions (from yotes to winters to food to disease), and hunting. However, the hunting harvest numbers haven't changed hardly at all ratio-wise.

With that said, I'll look for your response, and read it in serious consideration. Although I wouldn't expect a response, as I'm saving my gunpowder for April/May/June when all of us hunters are going to be at each other's throats when this issue rears its ugly head in earnest.

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Phade,

1:1 ratios are the natural state. All deer that are born every year are 50% does and 50% bucks. As part of the Catskill Forest Association you do get the opportunity to meet with the DEC and other land management professionals. During these meetings, the DEC does state that they do in fact desire the ratio be closer to 1:1. Hence this is why the DEC changed the regulations for WMU 3C and 3J to require that bucks taken are to have at least three antler points on a side to be legal. The only reason this past was to bring the ratio closer to 1:1. This is a fact and you can ask the DEC yourself.

\When you discus harvest numbers and base your opinion on that you forget one point. DMP’s were down 40% this year. Every one gets a buck tag…not everyone gets a doe permit. If there were no restrictions the ratio would not be the 1:3 that you claim. This ratio is strictly controlled by the DEC

With all due respect, when was the last meeting you attended with the DEC? I have attended two in the last 8 months and have never had them dismiss ratio's issue. They acknowledge is out of balance. Hunters desire opportunities to harvest deer and DMP’s allow hunter that opportunity.

I would absolutely agree with you that they work the DMP permits are mostly based on the capacity of the land (food, water and shelter), that is a basic strategy that the use to manage the herd. The DEC will tell you that as well at their meetings.

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Good reply from the standards we see here at the forum. I have a response to the matter, but am going to wait to discuss the subject more as the height of the off-season reaches us. There are some descriptions in your above post that have half-truths that you've made to be a general statement, and require a level of discussion beyond this forum's ability to maintain it (If you don't understand what that means, think of it as I'm saying it is the internet, and "goofies" are everywhere that prevent this type of talk from ocurring).

On your point about me going to meetings? My experience with the DEC is pretty thick. I've interacted with DEC officials, biologists, records dept. etc. on a weeklybasis. Shoot, right now I'm discussing the very matter with several DEC biologists. So please, before you speak about someone not being involved, think a bit more.

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

maybe in some parts of the state there are needs for an antler restriction...but in others i dont think that its necessary