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-   -   NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions? (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/northeast/118612-ny-do-u-think-we-should-have-antler-restrictions.html)

SteveBNy 12-22-2005 06:34 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
The down sides of points based AR:

1. You are putting increased pressure on the 60% of 1 1/2 year old bucks that are 6 pt or better pretty much wiping out the cream of the crop every year.

2. You are setting the bar very low that any 6 pt or better is now a trophy - that means all the 1 1/2 yo above or the 2 1/2 yo that are now 6 or better, are trophy's and targets. Doesn't matter that they may only be a 70 class. All are still young deer far from maturaty and there potential. I am in no way a trophy hunter, but if I was, please explain to me how legally targeting the best of the young bucks could possibly be productive


3. You say shoot a doe instead. Works only if you get a permit - ina lot of areas, manyhunters did not get one. Couple years of this and not being able to shoot a buck unless it is a trophy 1 1/2 70 class(:)) and our numbers could drop furthur.

4. NY sold around 600,000 big game tags this year. The majority of these hunters probably hunt just a few days per season. They like the tradition of getting together with family and friends. They hope to see some deer and maybe get the chance to take one - many do not, but still want the opportunity. If they shoot a spike, then the young 6 point AR would have them target gets a walk and maybe lives. Then they leave the woods for those of us that perhaps more dedicated. But they are every bit as important as the serious hunter and have as much right to their methods as you and I.

We need to ENCOURAGE all hunters to remain and recruit for our future or there may not be one. Our future does not lay with the trophy hunt depicted on saturday television hunts.

Want bigger deer? LET ALL THE YOUNG ONES WALK. And educate others to do the same. Don't set the bar legally at a 70class and chase other hunters from the woods. Definition of "TROPHY" should be left to the individual.
JMO
Steve



Phade 12-22-2005 09:27 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: tsoc

I am for antler restrictions. I live in Ulster county and live and hunt extensively in one of the test units.I am not looking for agreement from others nor disaproval.I don't like killing small bucks,it doesn't present a challenge to me and with the doe to buck ratio being what it is I feel it is far more responsible to kill doe's in most of the area's where I hunt.I do agree with others in that in general our herd numbers are way down and the management permits need to be drastically cut back as well as those god awful nuisance permits that farmers get.(slaughter permits)
Killing a mature doe is more challenging than killing a naive 1 1/2 year old buck and they provide just as much or more meat and there are a lot more of them.What is the down side?
For me, there is still one point that NY has to get over. Who are we to determine what a trophy is to other hunters?

That's your BIG downside right there.

Then, the biological issues/comparisons can begin.


jf5 12-22-2005 12:36 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Well, I think that they are a goiod idea. I hardly think the change puts more pressure on the larger bucks. Some guys will shoot any legal buck they can, and if they only see spikes under A/R then they go deerless. Its just a matter of what they see first.

I and many others don't see AR as "trophy hunting". So many here seem to have a chipon their shoulder about "trophy hunters" ruining it for everyone.If you go tocamps in Sask or Ill, that have a true trophy restriction, they willhold off on bucks under say 130class.Trophy QDM and AR's are not the same. AR's a chance to allow at least SOME male deer to get by there first season. It does help increase the age structure of bucks. The only way to implement some restriction in state likeNY is too allow a hunter to count points on one side. Its not perfect, and yes, some promissing young bucks will be taken. But they have just as much chance to be taken without A/R.

Another thing I would like to add is a spike rule IS AN A/R!! 3" spikes to be legal is just as much an anter restriction as any. And if you want to get into "why should other hunters determine what a trophy is for others" Then why not doaway with the 3" rule and let the hunter shoot whatever he wants?? Button buck, doe ,spike, etc???

Phade 12-22-2005 01:02 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jf5

Well, I think that they are a goiod idea. I hardly think the change puts more pressure on the larger bucks. Some guys will shoot any legal buck they can, and if they only see spikes under A/R then they go deerless. Its just a matter of what they see first.

I and many others don't see AR as "trophy hunting". So many here seem to have a chipon their shoulder about "trophy hunters" ruining it for everyone.If you go tocamps in Sask or Ill, that have a true trophy restriction, they willhold off on bucks under say 130class.Trophy QDM and AR's are not the same. AR's a chance to allow at least SOME male deer to get by there first season. It does help increase the age structure of bucks. The only way to implement some restriction in state likeNY is too allow a hunter to count points on one side. Its not perfect, and yes, some promissing young bucks will be taken. But they have just as much chance to be taken without A/R.

Another thing I would like to add is a spike rule IS AN A/R!! 3" spikes to be legal is just as much an anter restriction as any. And if you want to get into "why should other hunters determine what a trophy is for others" Then why not doaway with the 3" rule and let the hunter shoot whatever he wants?? Button buck, doe ,spike, etc???
The 3" spike ordeal is not A/R. It has a long history in NY, and purpose.

And you can shoot whatever you want if you have the tags. How is that confusing?


jf5 12-22-2005 01:10 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: Phade


ORIGINAL: jf5

Well, I think that they are a goiod idea. I hardly think the change puts more pressure on the larger bucks. Some guys will shoot any legal buck they can, and if they only see spikes under A/R then they go deerless. Its just a matter of what they see first.

I and many others don't see AR as "trophy hunting". So many here seem to have a chipon their shoulder about "trophy hunters" ruining it for everyone.If you go tocamps in Sask or Ill, that have a true trophy restriction, they willhold off on bucks under say 130class.Trophy QDM and AR's are not the same. AR's a chance to allow at least SOME male deer to get by there first season. It does help increase the age structure of bucks. The only way to implement some restriction in state likeNY is too allow a hunter to count points on one side. Its not perfect, and yes, some promissing young bucks will be taken. But they have just as much chance to be taken without A/R.

Another thing I would like to add is a spike rule IS AN A/R!! 3" spikes to be legal is just as much an anter restriction as any. And if you want to get into "why should other hunters determine what a trophy is for others" Then why not doaway with the 3" rule and let the hunter shoot whatever he wants?? Button buck, doe ,spike, etc???
The 3" spike ordeal is not A/R. It has a long history in NY, and purpose.

And you can shoot whatever you want if you have the tags. How is that confusing?

It is an A/R. It requires a certian amouint of antler to be legal.

Nothing confusing. A tag to take antlerless deer does not come automatic with your purchase of a hunting license like a buck tag. You have to apply seperatlyand be chosen. They are also restrictedby numbers and applicable to certainareasby the agencies, which buck tags are not.

Phade 12-22-2005 01:56 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jf5


ORIGINAL: Phade


ORIGINAL: jf5

Well, I think that they are a goiod idea. I hardly think the change puts more pressure on the larger bucks. Some guys will shoot any legal buck they can, and if they only see spikes under A/R then they go deerless. Its just a matter of what they see first.

I and many others don't see AR as "trophy hunting". So many here seem to have a chipon their shoulder about "trophy hunters" ruining it for everyone.If you go tocamps in Sask or Ill, that have a true trophy restriction, they willhold off on bucks under say 130class.Trophy QDM and AR's are not the same. AR's a chance to allow at least SOME male deer to get by there first season. It does help increase the age structure of bucks. The only way to implement some restriction in state likeNY is too allow a hunter to count points on one side. Its not perfect, and yes, some promissing young bucks will be taken. But they have just as much chance to be taken without A/R.

Another thing I would like to add is a spike rule IS AN A/R!! 3" spikes to be legal is just as much an anter restriction as any. And if you want to get into "why should other hunters determine what a trophy is for others" Then why not doaway with the 3" rule and let the hunter shoot whatever he wants?? Button buck, doe ,spike, etc???
The 3" spike ordeal is not A/R. It has a long history in NY, and purpose.

And you can shoot whatever you want if you have the tags. How is that confusing?

It is an A/R. It requires a certian amouint of antler to be legal.

Nothing confusing. A tag to take antlerless deer does not come automatic with your purchase of a hunting license like a buck tag. You have to apply seperatlyand be chosen. They are also restrictedby numbers and applicable to certainareasby the agencies, which buck tags are not.
Do you know why they enacted that rule to begin with?

SteveBNy 12-22-2005 05:38 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

AR's a chance to allow at least SOME male deer to get by there first season. It does help increase the age structure of bucks.
It allows the late born 1 1/2 spikes and forks and the few genetically inferior deer to live. The added pressure on the best potential 1 1/2 virtually assures that class to be wiped out.


The only way to implement some restriction in state likeNY is too allow a hunter to count points on one side. Its not perfect, and yes, some promissing young bucks will be taken. But they have just as much chance to be taken without A/R.
See above - not some promising young bucks, but MOST promising young bucks will be taken. Without points based AR, someone can shoot a spike or fork if they see one and a 6 point would then get a walk.

As I said before - if YOU want bigger deer, then YOU must not shoot ANY YOUNG bucks and encourage others to follow.Set your own personal goal and let others do the same.

Steve

jf5 12-22-2005 05:53 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: SteveBNy


AR's a chance to allow at least SOME male deer to get by there first season. It does help increase the age structure of bucks.
It allows the late born 1 1/2 spikes and forks and the few genetically inferior deer to live. The added pressure on the best potential 1 1/2 virtually assures that class to be wiped out.


The only way to implement some restriction in state likeNY is too allow a hunter to count points on one side. Its not perfect, and yes, some promissing young bucks will be taken. But they have just as much chance to be taken without A/R.
See above - not some promising young bucks, but MOST promising young bucks will be taken. Without points based AR, someone can shoot a spike or fork if they see one and a 6 point would then get a walk.

As I said before - if YOU want bigger deer, then YOU must not shoot ANY YOUNG bucks and encourage others to follow.Set your own personal goal and let others do the same.

Steve
I disagree, since I don't think it will put muchmore pressure on the legal 1.5 YO any more than if A/R's are not in effect.I also don't agree that ALLlate born spikes or small forks are genetically inferior.There are allot of other factors that come into play with antler development.It also hasn't been discussed as to what AR would apply. 2, 3, or 4 points a side?? Thats another thing to think about if you areconcerned that the genetically superior 1.5 YO get shot off.

To me,the bottom line is it will allow more bucks in general to make it past their first hunting season.

But hey, I am beating a dead horse here. Good luck and be safe out there guys. I am done...

Phade 12-22-2005 05:56 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Steve,

People don't understand the hygrating (high grading) concept here. Many QDM and state biologists believe in this in regards to A/R.

I can only imagine what these types of threads will be like come May or June.

That's one reason I'm thankful this season seems to have been "slow" to a ton of hunters. They'll be less likely to want to limit the deer they can harvet any further.

SteveBNy 12-22-2005 06:14 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Phade - I know - probably the 5th time I've presented this recently. Those who acknowledge my arguement have never tried to refute it. The others ignore it because they can't refute. Like you, I think this spring will be interesting. Seems to be a perception something needs to be fixed that isn't really broke!

Looked in BassPro today for your artcle - no go. Any suggestions?

Happy holidays
Steve


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