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RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

I don't see Steuben County mentioned on that list...but I'm still totally against it and hope it gets shot down. Personally, I wanna see less young bucks hanging on the local meatpoles and see more make to the higher age classes. As for safety issues...there is an unbelievable number of deer hunters in the southern tier region...that's alot of rifles going off near farms/houses.Here's the scariest thought of all...all ofthe first-day hunters from the city coming down armed with rifles shooting at every little deer that comes by. I can't believe it...they didn'topen the early doe muzzleloader season in October because it was too controversial and everyone was pissed off. Now they try this bullsh*t again[:@]?

This statement cracks me up too:

"For several years, the growth in the population of deer in the Southern Tier have been profound, to the point that this wildlife management bill has been passed so as to mitigate economic losses to our residents and to save lives as well," said Senator Dale M. Volker.

Huh....I thought that the DEC was cutting back on the DMP permits this fall due to the decline in harvest numbers across the state in the past couple of years. This guy needs to get his head out of his butt. Just my two cents on the issue.

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RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

I am Happy!!! I hunt in Oswego County Where on the south side of RT. 49 you can't use a rifle but the north side you can. Now I have to dust off my .243. :D I have to say that I will miss my 1100. Alot of memories have taken place using that.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

im glad cayuga isnt on there

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

I'm not so sure Volker has all his facts straight, especially on deer populations. I'd also question why those counties only. I'm not opposed to rifles in Southern Tier. I'm more w/CMA here on the accuracy issue. I too hunt Northern Zone w/ rifle where I live, and have a camp in Southern Tier. I absolutely regret the Shotgun opener. I can't stand hearing all the repeated shots, sometimes guys even reloading & emptying again. I can never figure why.many hunters w/shotguns seem to always try and outshoot its abilities. So I gotta believe if a hunter is given a rifle, practices, and becomes very accurate with it taking advantage of its capabilities. Then therepeated shooting would decrease. Less shots blazing through the woods seems a heck of alotsafer to me. Many areas of Northern NY are farm lands also. Its not all woods. Plus if you look at some of the 04' DEC harvest numbers by town. You'll see that several Northern Zone areas had higher deer takes then some Southern Zones. My own Northern township is a perfect example of a higher take then the Southern Tier township my camp resides. Plus its been working fine in PA for yrs, andya know how popular hunting is there. So I'm all for it. Heck last 2 seasons I've carried my muzzleloader during shotgun season over the darn slug thrower.Far as safety on shotguns I say NYS implements a 3-shot plug rule to slow these guys down!!!

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

Doesn't look like this is a done deal yet. Here is a link to the actual bills on NYS web site.

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=S00918
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A04853

Looks like they decided to go with the version that the Assembly passed and now its back at the Senate for another vote, Then Pataki will have to sign off on it. Though it does look like it should pass who knows if George will sign it.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

BuckAlley:
I agree with you 100% on that one. The amount of shooting that goes on during the opening day of deer season here in the southern tier is absolutely disgusting...what do those guys think there going to hit by rapid firing 5 shots off? Last season I counted 250+ shots by 8:30 on opening morning...and that was during a below average year! There's lots of idiots out in the woods that really shouldn't evenbe there [:@].

Its also true that alot of guys take poor shots at deer...whether they're too far away or running full bore through the woods. No question about it...on a stationary standing deer a rifle is a more accurate weapon. However, with a little practice,a scoped shotgun with modern rifled sabots is also a more than effective gun out to 100+ yds. Not all of your shots are gonna be at standing deer (especially during the opening day frenzy)...what's gonna stop guys with rifles from ripping off shots at deer running through the woods or a nice buck out in the field at 400 yds.? There's gonna be deer getting wounded and unrecovered no matter what. I know some guys who kill nuisance permit deer at a buddy of mine's farm evey summer...and they have more deer get away with rifles than they actually kill out right. If you hit a deer where you're supposed to with its witha slug or a rifle, it's not gonna go too far. Unfortunatley, alot of guys I know simply dust their guns off the afternoon before season opens, fire a few shots throught it and think that they're ready to go hunting. I gotta believe that they would do the same thing with a rifle too. I would really hate to know how many deer go unrecovered every season.

I don't know what would be more dangerous...the number ofslugs going through the woods...or the potential range of the rifles. Neither are too safe. I can't believe that there's anywhere in the northern zone where there are as many hunters in the woods at one time as there is in the area I hunt here in Steuben County. It takes an awful lot of hunters to kill over 20,000 deer a year during 2000-2003. This area usually averages right around 16-17 deer taken PSM, this past year is dropped to around 10. That's still alot of shooting going on...no matter if its will a shotgun or a riffle.Like you said though, not all areas in the southern zone have the same topography. I feel thatalot of areasare just too crowded for rifles.

Maybe that's not such a bad idea. Maybe you should be required to pass a shooting test before you can purchase your deer licence every season?

It seems to have worked a little too fine down there...that's why they implimented AR's in the first place. The entire buck herd was getting slaughtered on a yearly basis. I sure don't want that. I believe that the real issue here in the southern tierisn't whether or not shotguns are efficient at killing deer and controlling deer populations(thousands of shotgun carrying huntersfill there freezers with venison in NY every fall)...the REAL issue is access to land. How are hunters gonna control deer when they can't get to them...in which case it reallydoesn't matter much if you are using a shotgun or a rifle.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how this one turns out. By the way, where in the southern zone is your camp located?

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

To be honest about it, I have hunted in NY for over 30 years for turkey and other small game but never for big game..I never thought I'd see the day in my lifetime but it looks like the sun may be coming up on that day...guess I'll have to buy the big license this fall and go for everything..guess...there is hope for Sunday hunting in PA..I equally never thought that day would come either...

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

Does Senator Volker know something I don't? How does a "newer" rifle cause less damage than traditional shotgun? Just thought I'd point that out as it appears as such a crazy statement. Only a politician can pull off a quote like that!

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

Volker sounds like Schumer talking about CWD and how NYS can't afford to lose sportsman "licencse sales"I can'timagine ever seeing any of these guys in the woods let alone making decisions onour hunting privilages and practices. Well rifle bill or notit still comes down to practice,patience and skill.No one has mentioned that a muzzle loader can reach out to as farasthe rifle and we have been using them for how long? We will all be in the woods come opening day so shoot straight and remember - one shot, one kill!

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

I think this same bill or another one like it was around last year. I t only got so far then sat in limbo on somebody's desk and died. I almost got a new barrel for my Encore in anticipation of it happening. Glad I didn't then and am sure not gonna order one thinking it will happen now.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

I agree - pure bullcrap. The state is under targets in 2/3 of the WMU, mostly in the western part of the state where they want to expand rifles - huh?

Rifles will save lives? Then we should have had them years ago!:eek:

I really don't care either way, but why the spin?

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

I should remind you fellow hunters that Senator Volker is oneof avery few representatives that actually stands up for you and I as hunters. Theres not too many doing so, trust me, Im involved. As for his knowledge of deer numbers, etc, keep in mind that hes an elected official, and represents us all, and because of this is just talking the numbers hes given. I cant say enough about how we should support the senator. To put his name in the same sentence as Schumer is a crime...

I dont know what all the deal is on rifles, personally. Modern muzzleloaders do darn near the same thing. Guys have been using "sawn off" rifles in the form of contenders, etc, for years. To those who disagree, I know too many guys with high powered pistols that use home made shoulder rests, etc. Thats when it becomes a rifle. PA hunters havent managed to kill each other off yet, either. Id say the only thing Id be uncomfortable with is hunters, in general, lack of accountability with weapons, and the chance of homes being within gun range.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

If this does happen will it be for this year? Also, how many New Yorkers who don't own a rifle will be purchasing one for the season?

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

It really doesn't matter. In my opinion NY DEC has screwed the herd up so bad in some areas it'll never be right. Surprisingly they included Chenango County on the list. I've been a "NO DRAW" on deer management permits in that county for 3 years straight, and it looks like they won't let Non residents have them again this year. YET< this dude says the deer are taking over. I don't know where he's hunting but it isn't in Chenango County. My brother and his gang had by far the worst year they've had in 40 in the Southern Tier(Chenango County). The next worst was the year before. These people are stupid. They really are. What weapons we use really doesn't matter. Heck, these muzzleloaders they've been shooting for the past few years are as accurate as most of the off the shelf rifles. Shotgun, rifle, muzzleloader... it doesn't matter. They need some better game management if you ask me. They ask for input but don't listen. And NO you non residents can't have your say, but send your $300 for your hunting license. Been doing it for 25 years, I'm about ready to say screw 'em and just go up for the beer and food.

Throw in a little CWD scare and these Maryland deer are looking fine. Heck, I've been invited to Ohio, WVa, Indiana, Gaand PA this year. Who needs to try and keep up with NY.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

Amen to that.

The only difference I see is in the numbers. We do have muzzleloaders in NY but it pails in comparison to the shotgun hunter numbers. Can you imagine if every shotgun was replaced with a rifle on opening day in NY? Can any of you honestly tell me the woods would be safer? I don't know about most of you that hunt in NY, but the terrain I hunta 75 yard shotis probably the most I'd ever need with my shotgun. Why do we need something flying through the air for 300 yards? Kill more deer? Manage the herd ?? Give me a break. How about ..................... kill more people with hunting related accidents.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

When I was a kid we hunted near Cooperstown (where we lived) with shotguns, never had a problem taking deer.

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RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

Ahh butt..... no matter the weapon, each successive miss causes more and more anxiety which in turn makes the trigger finger move more rapidly, which in turn causes the arms to shake more violently which in turns causes them to spray more widely and area. I always used to sit there and listen. ONE SHOT.... "Yup, dead deer". Two three four shots in rapid succession..... "Yup, scared deer". ONE SHOT.... few seconds of silence... one more shot(finishing them off) ..... "Yup, probably dead deer or hunter committed suicide for missing".

What's amazing to me is that NY still hasn't gotten on board with a hunter orange requirement. Patacki says it'll make them less safe if everyone is wearing orange. What woods has he been hunting in? His theory, they'll be more careful if they know hunter may be in all camo. Give me a break. I wear bunches of orange in the Southern Tier, but when I'm in the Adirondacks I'm all camo, simply because of the numbers of hunters and the skills of the hunters involved.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

Weren't you paying attention in hunters safety class?:eek:

Of course rifles have a significantly greater range than slugs do...that would be the whole reason that slug only seasons have been set. And there will be plenty of multiple shots and lead flying when a buck crosses a powerline at 350 yds or so, and all the self imagined 1000yd marksman wannabees with your fancy new rifles start blazing away.

If you aren't consistently getting your buck with a shotgun, I'm thinking a rifle won't make a big difference, either.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

You think if there is a 150" buck standing there 300 yards away people will be counting dollars and cents at that moment?[:-][:-]

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RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

And MY point was that you can't guarantee you will always have a failsafe backstop in the woods. Longer range = more dangerous.

SOME rifles are more accurate than slug guns, and SOME rifles produce less recoil than slug guns, but its not an absolute ( go shoot a .460 WBY if you don't believe me.)

The fact is that the gap between modern slug guns and rifles closes more and more every year. The latest loads by Winchester, and this year Hornady, are pretty similar ballisticallyto a 45-70.

Personally, I feel that rifles are probably a tad more dangerous than slug guns, but the real determining factor is the guy pulling the trigger.

I know we can both agree on that.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

I dont know, I guess I personally wouldnt be out there with a rifle, as some already stated, my locale suggests short range shooting. I feel ALL the folks out there pose a threat to my safety in some form or another. Theres much less accountability these days. And like Ive already stated, I feel that the rifles are already out there, in other forms. If NY state is going to become a dangerous crossfire, how come theres still hunters left in PA?

As for the state managing the herds, hell, weve had such an overpopulation of deer in recent years, having less this year makes guys think theyre gone! Some of the same guys that went for seconds and thirds on management permits a couple years ago are often the guys hollering the loudest now, around my area. Some areas seem almost void of deer, and other areas are still crawling with them. Theres definietly a 7 foot browse line in any woodlot in my region. A one hour drive on any highway here will allow you to see dozens of deer, and many roadkills. To be honest with you guys, Im not sure I could help this state manage a deer herd even if they were to ask me!

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

So now bascially I believe we've come to the conclusion that Rifles could be a safety issue in Southern Tier Ny, becasue of their longer range, and that hunters would still make those mulitple shots in excess.
I think weneed to look at thethe reason why hunters using shotguns feel they need to shoot those slugs so many times repeatedly. Its seems to me its become a mindset of old times. When the slug gun was know for being strictly a shorter range weapon, and those lead slugs really didn't have the accuracy hunters hoped would at longer ranges. Too many hunters got onto the mindset I need to throw as much lead as possible to try, and hit that darn deer. Its a practice that become all too common on opening day of the southern tier. A mindset that is dangerous. Add the semi-auto slug gun, and we have a popular multiple repeater that oughta bring me down a deer on opening day!
Now look at the reputation of the rifle. Accuracy instantly comes to mind. And long range accuracy at that. You don't hear the constant repeating shots in the North. You can make a arguement for the numbers of hunters. But regardless you still just don't hear the constant repeating shots. Not to mention the best known accurate rifles are made of Bolt actions.Of course you have other actions, but bolts are known forhaving the best of accuracy.
So put some rifles insome hunters hands, and you change the whole mindset,because of theweapons capabilities. The hunter suddenly realizes he has a weapon thats more then capable of making a very accurate shot. He now realizes he no longer needs to blaze lead through the woods. He instead takes better more careful aim, becasue he now has no excuse but himself for missing that deer. Suddenly you have better hunters in the woods.
Does this mean all hunters will stop repeating shots. Heck no. But I have a strong feeling it will change alot of them.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

im also from Oswego county and would like the usage of riffles in my area some areas are to tight for the use of riffles but most new shotguns and all mussel loader reach out just as far good luck in all your hunts and hope to meet some ny hunters

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

Having a "more capable weapon" doesn't matter when you load the woods with people that are shooting the thing once a year when opening day arrives. The rifle being more powerful and accurate doesn't mean that the weekend warrior hunters can hit the broadside of a barn. I'm not trying to bash or stereotype such hunters, but let's face it they exist and we all know it. Those are the ones where I see it being more dangerous. I wouldn't want to be on the other end of the field or hedgerowthey were shooting across.

Also just having a rifle in your hands may give people a false sense of good shot choice. There's a deer 200 yards away and i have a rifle!! Hey that means I can shoot at it. Well maybe not unless you've practiced that shot and are 100% confident you're not going to sail it over it's back.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

Hi guys, I am new here.

I am from Massachusetts but belong to Owl Creek, a hunting club out there. The club has leased land in Spencer and Slatersville. With this bill passed, both leased properties would be allowed to use rifles on. I just found out about the bill last weekend when I went out there to see a friend, the club Secretary.

The only way I get info about hunting when I am not out there is through the NY Outdoor News, which hasn't mentioned that bill yet in any of their weekly issues.

So has Pataki signed this bill or is it pending or what?

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

I live in Broome county and can NOT believe they are gonna allow rifle anyplace in broome strictly from the range aspect.

I quit gun hunting deer cuz of the mass of IDIOTS with gunsin the southern teir. Especially from Broome county east to the city. And I hunted private posted land that no one was supposed to be on. Nothing better than standing behind a tree 100 yards from someone shooting that can't see you but you can tell the bullets are coming your way just by the sound of the shots. And then you hear it. tick tick tick tick of slugs ripping thru braches over your head and one actually smacks the tree your behind about 10 foot up.

No thanks.

There simply isn't enough space in Broome county for mass of hunters to use rifles.

It aint just the deer that gonna die in Broome county if this passes for that county.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

All in all deer hunting has it's risks, we all know that, we all know that we could get shot or even die out there if were not careful. If there is going to be a change they need to put out a special suburban course for rifle hunters that is manditory to take and limit the size of caliber that folks can use. I don't mind it much but I don't want to be out there with folks shooting 375 H and H's at deer 100 yards awayfrom me.Shotguns have worked all these years anyway why change?

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

Whether the bill passes or not, I am still going to use my new shotgun that I gotlast Christmas. I still haven't fired a shot out of it yet.

It's the new Remington 870 Express Mag. Synthetic with 23" cantilever rifled barrel. Exact same gun as the 870 SPS "Super Slug," butcheaper because of a crappier finish on the metal. As long as I get the same performance as the Special Purpose version, I don't care. Actually, my shotgun replaced the SPS "Super Slug." That gun is discontinued, so any Super Slug gun you see is what was left over from last year.

If you want to check it out on Remington's website, here's a link:
http://www.remington.com/NR/exeres/0000169arnfegvfaieeznzvo/RemArms+Rich+Product.asp?NRMODE=Published&NROR IGINALURL=%2ffirearms%2fshotguns%2f870exp_slug&amp ;NRNODEGUID=%7b6F71B987-F197-4609-BAE4-DE5E0B1D3725%7d&NRQUERYTERMINATOR=1&cookie %5Ftest=1

With that new longer barrel, I am good to 125-150 yards. Even if I had a rifle, I wouldn't shoot beyond 125-150 yards anyway. I will probably get a rifle just as a back up. I know that a lot of people will do the exact opposite. I have shot a shotgun my whole life, never shot a rifle. I am still for the rifle bill, but why would I change when I am doing fine with the shotgun.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

djgj200:

That's a nice shotgun...I've actually been contemplating getting one of those babies this fall and topping with a nice Leupold or Nikon scope. I didn't know they discontinued the SPS. I think the 870 models are a great gun for the price. What sabots do ya use?

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

WNY Bowhunter:

As I said, I have yet tofire a shot out of it. I have the slugs to test out of it. I have the Remington Core-lokt sabots, regular Winchester Barnes sabots, and some Winchester Supreme sabots to test.

I anticipate the Core-lokt to do the best but got to get to the range first.

There are870 SPS Super Slug guns still floating around out there. My dad is going to buy an 870 SPS soon for this fall. He has the SPS 11-87 deer gun with the 21" barrel. He wants it in the 870 for reliability and wants the SPS just for the name. When he gets his he will probably put a Leupold scope on it as he has on his 11-87. I have a Simmons on mine.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

I've got an 870 sps superslug - great shooter, but a tad heavy. The heavy barrel helps smooth out the hold, however.

I shoot Federal Barnes Expanders in it, and it shoots great.

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RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

It was just a figure of speach. My biggest concern is joe sixpack out in the woods, you know the people who think it's ok to drink before they go out in the woods. Drinking has no special person that it likes more than others, So in fact a drunk rich man could bring that type of weapon out. Your right not everybody has one , but I can almost bet that most people who own one drink alcohol at one time or another during hunting season. There's always a chance that someone is drunk out there. I would prefer to limit there range a little. Where I live I cannot see a rifle fitting into our season . Way to many houses and roads nearby, It's bad enough that kids or animals can't be out opening day or the first weekend in ther own back yards because of reckless people( won't call them hunters because they are not). We've all heard the stories, Ijust don't want these guys to have more fire power then they all ready have. As for the responsiable hunters, I 'll share camp with them no matter what the weapon of there choice is. My gripe is not about the good guys, it's about the scumbags who don't have a clue on what there doing out there. We've all seen them out and felt disgusted to be shunned by people who relate us to them and put us in the same catagory. I'm bitter a bit I was just ventining a little, sorry about that.

RE: New York rifle bill passes
 

They are heavy because of the barrel. I have compared the barrel on my 870 deer gun to my dad's 11-87 and the 870's barrel is twice the thickness. Remington did that on purpose to: 1-reduce recoil and 2-make it more like a rifle and giveyou more consistent shots.

At least I will be in stand and not walking around all day. So weight doesn't really bother me. The thing about the 870 Express version of the slug gun is it doesn't come with the Remington/Limb Saver R3 recoil pad, which is standard for all Remington Special Purpose Synthetic guns. The Express version comes with the standard hunk of rubber for a "recoil pad." When I test the gun out at the range, I will make a decision on whether I shouldgo out and buy an R3 to put on the gun.

The R3 recoil pad can't be put on guns with wood stocks because every stock varies depending on how much it needed to be ground down. It can't be put on recoil operated automatics because it takes too muchrecoil out that the gun wont function. Just something to keep in mind.