ChicagoTRS

DNR estimates ~3000 wolves in Minnesota...

Estimates say each wolf kills on average 20 deer per year...

60000 less deer... (DNR estimates say 43K deer)...

Humans take around 200K per year...

So wolves are not an insignificant impact on deer populationsbut I can't see how we can completely blame them...

mr.mc54

double post-sorry[&:]

mr.mc54

bemidjihunter

chigacotrs-your numbers are pretty close. Although 20 deer a year per wolf is slightly on the high end. It's more in the area of 10-15, but does vary greatly. In a tough winter such as this one, I would expect that to probably reach up to 20 for some wolves because of the ease of hunting. I never meent to say this is an insignificant figure...just very very small. In north central and north eastern MN, wolves account for the deaths of somewhere around 5% of deer in the same range, and about 2-3% of the entire states herd. To be honest with I'm not positive on numbers for wisconsin or michigan but I do know MN has 5-6x as many wolves as both those states...so I imagine they would be significantly less.

Lungbuster...not sure where you get your information from. I'd definetily like to see it...becasue despite your blatant insults to my research, I do try and stay as unbiased as possible. As far as wolves killing for pure sport...this is another example of perpetuating the image of wolves as savage killers. In biology is called the "conservation of energy." It takes a ton of energy to take down a deer(usually), and wolves won't waste that energy for "sport." The only time a situation like that may come up is when they are teaching pups to hunt, which isn't often. If they make a kill, it's because they need to eat, and they will eat it.

lungbuster...I'm not trying to insult you. I'm trying to help you see the issue from a conservationalists pov. I hope we can both agree that we don't want to see wolves go extinct. I can agree with you that limited control isn't neccessarily a bad idea either. Anti-wolf fear mongering is not a means of control though...it will only lead to extinction. As far as your comments on the DNR...you think a "pro-wolf agenda" among the people who are most educated and experienced on the issue is a coinsidence? Or some huge DNR conspiracy to ruin whitetail hunting? Most of them are sportmen just like ourselves. And you'd be hard put to find a biologist worth his salt that thinks Cronic Wasting Disease can be eradicated entirely.

lungbuster12point06

I don't believe it has anything to do with whitetails..........the DNR's agenda is driven by politics and the biggest proponents for keeping the wolf on the endangered list arerepresentatives that are tree-huggers.....The last time wolves were de-listed a bleeding heart group convinced a judge to over turn the ruling and put them back on the list. The wildlife biologist know they cannot eradicate CWD, it's the WiDNR that has thier head up thier arse and can't see the forest for the trees........I respect the biologist , I have no respect for a politcally driven dept of Natural resources that will not listen to hunters...............As for most DNR officials being sportsmen, I just have to laugh, because most are just weekend warriors that might spend a total of 1 week a year "hunting" whitetails.......To me that does not make a sportsman, at least not in the regard that they should know better than the hunter that spends months out of every year in the woods scouting and hunting.

I mean no disrespect to your studies and I applaud the fact that you are majoring in wildlife biology in school..........however I don't agree with how Wi. DNR counts our wildlife populations, especially wolves or deer.....this has nothing to do with your studies as you have said you are doing it in Mn. So I appologize for coming down on you, but I respectfully disagree with some of your views on wolves.........As I stated in my first post on this thread, I believe there is a place for wolves in our ecosystem.........but it is a very small one and I for the life of me can't figure out why the original goals once met cannot create cause for management, but it seems that those goals where just a ploy to protect the wolves and never was there intent to let management practices be employed.

mr.mc54

I for one have seen deer wasted and rotting because of the wolf. Would it be safe to say, as a (biologist) that pups are born each year? So if that is true, Then every litter needs to learn how to practice ( as you say )thekill! So there will be hundreds of wasted deer to teach the pups from the litters each year. What you saymay be true in minnesota.Maybe the wolves here have not evolved as fast as Minnesota wolves. The wolves here kill anything that they come in contact with and have stalked humans as well. Many houndsmen have wittnessed the wolves going out of their way to kill bear dogs. Many of residents have wittnessed their dog or cattle come up missing. They can practice killing in Minnesota just keep them there.

bemidjihunter

Mr.mc-some of the things your saying or simply absurd. Wolves in no way kill everything they come across, and there has been no documented case of a wild gray wolf attacking a human in the united states...EVER. I have no doubt you've seen a wolf leave a fresh kill or discovered an animal killed by a wolf that to you looked rotted...but remember, wolves cache large prey (deer and moose) and what looks rotted and inedible to us is perfectly fine for wolves to come back and eat later, which they do for almost every large kill. As far as dogs go...yes wolves will kill dogs, but they won't hunt them down or go out of their way to attack them as you've stated. They will avoid a conflict if they can becasue of their solitary nature, but they are very territorial and will fight dogs on occasion if they feel they're a threat to their territory...thats just mother nature, not some inquenchable blood lust.

lungbuster-As far as the department with it's head up it's ass I couldn't agree with you more...thats definetily the case in mn and I'm sure it's as you said in wisconsin. But it's not their fault, they are trying to do good things, but as you mentioned there is simply to much political sway to accomplish much. the original plan was to delist wolves from federal protection once conservation goals were met. The goals were met..and they were not delisted, so I understand where a lot of conflict comes from. And you right-it was left wing "tree huggers" without much knowledge on the situation that casued them to be re-listed in a sense. The recent federal delisting is not neccessarily a bad thing. It will help the western states control populations while still allowing the midwest to practice conservation. i did happen to catch that article in BOWHUNTER that you mentioned...it said something about wisconsin allowing 40-some wolves to be eliminated, which in my eyes may be slightly on the higher end but definetily very reasonable. I AM NOT OPPOSED TO WOLF CONTROL. What I am opposed to is wild acusations of wolves as blood thirsty monsters who are going to kill all our deer, slaughter our cattle, rape our women, and blow our houses away. That will only lead to unjustified killing and stronger opposition to healthy population control.

Handles

bemidjihunter,
You are right on with all of your statements (letting deer rot?Ever watch an episode of Wild America? they chew on the carcass for weeks). Controlling wolf population is ok, elimination is not. I'm sure bears and yotes take as many deer, especially fawn, as wolvesif for no other reasonthan the sheer number of bears and yotes,but there isn't the fear or hatered of those species, probably too many bad horror movies and bedtime stories are stuck in the minds of the uninformed.
Our human population at almost 8 billion, is poised to double by 2050. Wisconsin is poised to go from it's current 5 to almost10 million people. Wolves changing our hunting should be one of the least worries. Birth control should be.

One thing to note, that perhaps by having a season on them, and making wolves a game animal, may help some mouth-breathers see them as a worthy quarry, and therefore something they would like to keep around.

mr.mc54

No-Wolf Attacks on Humans ? I am not a biology student but here goes- I have done a little research on this subject and I found there have been many attacks on humans . Try reading some research by T.R.Mader Research on the gray Wolf. He has documentation on many attacks in Minnesota imagine that,Alaska,North Dakota,and many other places in the continental US.You could Google (gray wolf attacks on humans) but that is to easy. I found other sites where a women and her little girl were attacked and they have pictures to show the mauling they recieved for just going for a walk. I have had wolves stalking me when walking in the forest in Bayfield county. Now Tell us again that (there hasn't been a single wolf attack on humans) You know what, You aught to do a little more research before trying to discredit a person. I think you would fit right in with the DNR. Make up a bunch of mumble jumble and pass it on as fact! This guy believes when I see. Just curious- is that what they taught you in DNR school????????????

bemidjihunter

mr.mc-I misspoke...I was in a hurry to get to class and didn't proofread, I apologize. There has not been one documented case of a wolf KILLING a human in north america. Attacks, although incredibly incredibly rare, have occured. You are literaly more likely to win the lottery than be attacked by a wolf. Every incident I've ever read about has included a rabid wolf too. I can't say a healthy wolf has never attacked someone, but I've read a lot on the issue, and I've never heard of it. As you know rabies makes animals act aggressivly, a trait wolves normally do not possess. I too have been followed by wolves on numerous occasions while doing feild work this summer...not "stalked." I know comparing wolves to dogs isn't real scientificly sound, but it's not a real big streach either. If you own a dog, whats the first thing they do when a new person walks into the room onto your lawn? It's the same for wolves, they're just checking out the visitor. If your ever attacked by wolves, I'll pay your dang medical bills for misleading you. Hows that?

I've never heard of DNR school. Just where would I find that....?

Edit-I just remembered a case I read about in Alaska of a wolf attacking a hiker several years ago. The wolf had no disease but was provoked when the hiker beat him with a stick I believe. Thought I may as well cover my bases here.