Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

The Missouri Department of Conservation continues its Socialistic form of mismanagement!

http://mdc.mo.gov/news/action/2008/20080929.htm

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

What action constitutes "socialistic mismanagement?"

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

I'm about fed up with the MDC raising the price of non-resident deer and turkey hunting by astronomical proportions every year, $175 to $225 my @ss[:@][:@][:@]. I'm about 2 seconds from never stepping foot in MO to hunt deer or turkey ever again (the only reason I do is my fam owns land there).

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

It can always get worse. I would have to pay over 400 bucks for an NR permit to bow hunt my own land in Illinois. Throw in NR firearm permits for deer and turkey and it would be up around 1000 bucks.
I would think that would be more capitalistic since they are exploiting a market, but no matter what it is no fun if you are on the paying end of it.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

Check out this post I left on the MDC comments website:

"Dear Sir or Ma'am:
Let me start off by telling you that I am a native Missourian that now lives in Kansas. I grew up in Missouri, joined the service (U.S. Army) and after my enlistment was over, came back to Missouri to attend college at the University of Missouri-Rolla (now Missouri S&T). I currently work in Missouri and pay income taxes in Missouri (not to mention paying a 1% Kansas City, Missouri TIF tax) but due to the proximity of my work and the fact my wife attends school at the University of Kansas, I now live in Kansas. I am also an avid hunter and am fortunate enough that my extended family owns land in Northeastern MO (near Atlanta). It was quite a sticker shock to see my deer and turkey hunting tags go from $15 to $150, then to $175 and I actually had to give up hunting turkey in MO all together due to this expense. I now see that the MDC is making it's steepest price hike on deer hunting tags yet (from $175 to $225) AND have eliminated discount pricing for non-resident landowners for deer and turkey permits. Now, I understand that the states of Missouri and Kansas (not to mention Iowa and Illinois) are having a price war with each other by charging exorbinate rates for non-resident deer and turkey permits (at least 10X the rate of non-residents) but this is getting out of hand and the only people that are losing are hunters. We have a problem in this country with not enough people passing on the tradition of hunting to the next generation and we are losing hunters faster than we can replace them. This form of price gouging not only excludes lower and middle-class income families from hunting in their neighbooring states and passing on the rich tradition of hunting but will start to hurt the small town economies that rely on out-of-state hunters to patronize their establishments during the hunting season. I hope the MDC and the conservation departments of Kansas, Iowa and Illinois see that these continual price hikes only serve a near-sighted goal of bolstering your tax coffers at the expense of alienating hunters that live in neighbooring states. I would love to teach my children to hunt on the land that they may one day inherit, but at the current rate that the permits are being raised, I probably won't be able to afford it.
Regards,
Sean Garrison "

It probably won't due any good and I'll probably get some lipservice email but sending it made me feel better. I guess I should start looking for deer and turkey hunting spots in Kansas [&:].

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

You might consider contacting the local state legislator as well as starting a local petition to try to reform things. I have considered trying to do something like that in Illinois.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

Here is the reply I recieved from the MDC ombudsman:

"Thank you for taking the time to express your views on this matter.
It is always distressing to hear that changes in regulations or permit prices will diminish an individual's opportunity to pass on the hunting tradition as they had planned. You are correct that the scale of our nonresident deer permit increase was influenced by the prices charged Missouri residents to hunt in neighboring states. The elimination of the nonresident landowner reduced-price permits was similarly influenced. Both changes were also prompted by a series of public meetings with Missouri deer hunters who sent a strong message that they did not like nonresident hunters getting favored treatment here.
Additional information on the upcoming changes and the reasons behind them can be found at:
http://www.mdc.mo.gov/regs/permitfaq.htm
Changes to permit pricing and associated issues, as approved by the Conservation Commission, were filed with the Missouri Secretary of State on October 10, 2008. These changes will be published in the November 17 edition of the Missouri Register, at which time a 30-day public comment period commences. After the 30-day public comment period, all comments will be compiled and sent to the Conservation Commission for their information and consideration. At such time, the Conservation Commission may decide to rescind, alter or continue with changes as previously approved.
We will include your e-mailed comments with others that are received during the official public comment period."

I may have to be very vocal during the 30-day public comment period. These state price wars have to stop. The only people getting hurt are the hunters that can't afford to hunt across state lines. It's funny because I just saw a show the other day on Iowa deer hunting and the head of the Iowa DNR was complaining that not enough deer were being taken from their herd.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

Recent changes moving landowner permits from 5 acres to 80 is punishinglandowners and attempts at a socialistic form of governing conservation. You reward the wealthy with 80+ acres and punish small less fortunatelandowners. Less animals will be harvested and more landowners like myself will now not permit anyone else to hunt my land until you take that away from me too! I spent alot of money to buy land for one reason was thebenifits it gave me. What else do you have in the works to screwlandowners!


Thank you for taking the time to express your views on this matter.
The new minimum acreage for no-cost deer and turkey permits is just one part of more than a year-long effort to take a comprehensive look at our whole permit system. In the past, our funding grew each year, but today it is not keeping pace with the cost of doing business. Sales tax revenues are expected to drop or remain flat as the economy slows. The majority of hunters and anglers are baby boomers and, as those people are aging and reducing their outdoor recreation, permit sales revenue are decreasing. With decreasing permit sales, Missouri also receives less federal aid that is tied to number of permits sold. A portion of the permit changes were designed to allow us to continue to receive our share of the federal aid reimbursement.
While no one likes to pay higher prices for anything, we have to look at maintaining the revenue needed to continue to provide good resource management. Many different options were considered in the permit restructuring. We hope you'll understand that this wasn't done to get extra funding—it was a choice to just keep an even, solid funding base in light of declining hunter numbers and increasingly small land ownerships so we can maintain services at the level people expect. I hope this helps explain why these changes were needed.
Additional information on the upcoming changes and the reasons behind them can be found at:
http://www.mdc.mo.gov/regs/permitfaq.htm
Changes to permit pricing and associated issues, as approved by the Conservation Commission, were filed with the Missouri Secretary of State on October 10, 2008. These changes will be published in the November 17 edition of the Missouri Register, at which time a 30-day public comment period commences. After the 30-day public comment period, all comments will be compiled and sent to the Conservation Commission for their information and consideration. At such time, the Conservation Commission may decide to rescind, alter or continue with changes as previously approved.
We will include your e-mail comments with others that are received during the official public comment period.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

Was this a response that you received from the MDC? Because it doesn't quite jive with what I was told when I emailed the MDC. Hmmmmmm, did we catch them in a lie.......

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

I'm a missouri resident and I can tell you I'm not too happy with the changes made to the minimum acreage requirements for landowner permits. With all that said, I'm curious as to what it would cost me to hunt as a non resident in Kansas. I'm one who doesn't like the fact that it would cost me 300-400 dollars to hunt Illinois while they are allowed to hunt here for 175, or even 225. I've always been in foavor of charging non resident hunters whatever price they would charge me to hunt in thier home state. I just think that's fair and equitable.


GH

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

In Kansas it would cost you 350 or so to hunt as well. That's not the point I'm getting at here. What's going on is a tit-for-tat border war between states and we're the ones getting screwed. I will be writing my local Kansas state representative about this problem as well. I'm not sure if I'll get anything changed butI need to try. Pretty soon no-one (other than rich people) will be able to hunt in each others state. If the said state wants to limit the number of non-resident hunters then it should institute some kind of a lottery system. Instead the MDC is just trying to milk hunters for more of their hard earned dollars.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

I agree. Missouri didn't fire the first shot in this war. I support MDC's decision. Yes,non-residents wanting to hunt in Missouri are getting screwed. But Missouri residentshuntingout-of-state were getting screwed more. Now, everyone is equally screwed. :D

As far as increasing the landowner requirements from 5 to 80 acres, it was probably the prudent thing forMDC to do.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

I agree as well, just thought the jump from 5-80 was a little broad. I hope they'll revisit this and make it somewhere around 40 acres.

And yes Mo-KS we're all getting screwed but you can't lay much of the blame on the MDC, IMO. They still aren't charging what other states are.......

GH

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

As far as the acreage requirement goes, I don't feel like I/we can complain too much. The alternative would be to eliminate the no-cost tag for landowners.

Plus, if you are required to use the free tags on the qualifying land...how successful (or safe) can you be on 5 acres? Perhaps a 40-acre threshold is more appropriate though.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

Didn't even know they were considering those changes. I don't see how they are out of line though. MO is still one of the easiest/cheapest places for OOS tags, especially when you consider what you get. Now the 5 - 80 change..... I could see where 50 acres would have been more reasonable.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

In most instances, I'd whole heartedly agree, but I happen to know of a guy who bow hunts a spot that's no more than 4 acres and he takes a nice buck there every year. It's a small timbered draw, between two larger blocks of timber. It's actually a dynamite spot. However, rifle hunting should be at least 40 acres. That's what's bothering me about the 80 acre jump. I actually do most of my hunting on 51 acres. I put in food plots, manage the timbered areato help wildlife and my family might take 5 deer total each year. Some years it's more like 3. Now, the MDC's herd in my area is benefitting from the work I do, yet they have decided that 51 or even 40 acres is nothing. Let me be clear, I hunt mostly on my own land, but I do purchase resident tags as well that allow me to hunt places other than my own land. If nothing else, I wish they'd allow us to purchase a landowner's permit in addition to our resident permit if we have less than the 80 acre minimum, but say at least 40 acres.


Good discussion guys!

GH

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

Apparently more people are upset about what the MDC is trying to do. Check out this article in the Kansas City Star yesterday.

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/867838.html

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

From the Kansas City Star Article -
“If this goes through, I might not ever hunt deer in Missouri again,” said Andrews, 33, who is a network consultant living near Cook Station, Mo. “I might even move to another state.

....Really? You would move to another state over this?!?! I understand why people are upset (Idon't think they really should be) butregardless, this reaction is a little over the top.

Re:hunting on small acreage -My biggest buck thus farhas come from a 30 acre farm.

In thearticle, it notes that the freetag system started in the80's....as the clichegoes....all good things must come to an end...

I'd rather have MDC be flush with money than have to start selling public land, eliminating conservation agents, etc. I'll pony up$17, $50, $100, whatever it takes to keep MDCfiscally sound.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

I was gonna ask about the acreage change in Missouri since i just saw an article on it yesterday. In Illinois the minimum requirement is 40 acres which I dont think is fair. It all really depends on the terrain. In some places one acre might be all one needs and in others, 80 acres may not be enough. Of course.I must admit a little bias since I only own 29 acres in Illinois so dont qualify for a landowners permit. I like Ohio's approach, in that any landowner hunts for free on their land. And Ohio seems to be doing pretty good in terms of game management and fiscal policy.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

It's very hard if not downright impossible to single handedly fight for the rights of nonresident hunters who are the victims of beaurocrats, adminins and politicians who are hungry for power and funding.
As an Illinois resident I take no pleasure in seeing nonresidents getting overcharged by the Illinois DNR. (Dept. of Natural Resources)
This creates opportunity for other state agencies to fan the flames of hunters who are upset about the mistreatment they received and want to retaliate.
There is also an element of apathy and complete dislike for nonresident hunters by home staters.
These things work out collectively to our own destruction.
The outcome is I too get penalized for something I have neither done nor agree with.

How do we reverse this trend?

We need to organize, unify and transcend state lines in an effort to be come advocates for one another.



The following are transcripts of communication between me and MO DOC back in 2001:

Oct 11 2001
Dear nonresident deer hunter:
Our records show that you bought a Missourri nonresident deer hunting permit for the 2000
Missouri firearms deer hunting season. We hope had an enjoyable and successful hunt.

The Missouri Conservation Commission has been concerned in recent years with steadily increasing

nonresident deer hunting prices in states adjacent to Missouri, and has received numerous
complaints from Missouri residents about the cost to hunt deer in other states. Missouri's prices for
nonresident deer hunting have during this time remained relatively low in comparison.


The Conservation Commission is considering adopting a "reciprocal pricing policy" for deer hunting that
would allow Missouri to charge the same permit fee to a nonresident that his or her home state would
charge for a Missouri residentto hunt. (This reciprocal price would be triggered only when the other
state's nonresident deer hunting permit exceeds Missouri's fee by 25%.)
The current Missouri nonresident any-deer hunting permitcosts $125. But under a reciprocal
pricing policy, an Iowa resident would pay $308 for the permit; a Kansas resident would pay $271; an
Illinois resident would pay $256; and an Oklahoma resident would pay$296.
We're seeking your ideas on this issue. Please take a few minutes to fill out the enclosed questionnaire
and return it in the postage paid self-addressed envelope. This input will help our Regulations
Committee to develop a recommendation for Missouri's Conservation Commission.
Any eventual decision may not please all parties, though we'll do our best to be fair and consistent.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Sincerely,
Xxxx Xxxxx
Fiscal Services Supervisor



My reply:


Reciprocal Deer Tag prices are going the wrong direction.
All states need to lower their prices.
As a Non-Resident hunter in MO, I am already paying nearly tenfold what residents do.
I hunt Spring Turkey, Fall Archery and Firearms seasons. I also do a little fishing now &
then.
Collectively, I am paying in excess of $300 per year and not always filling these tags.
If the prices go up, then I will simply be priced out of the woods, and MO will lose this revenue.
Sadly, I could then honestly say that hunting has become a rich man's sport.
What attracts me to Missouri is that fact that I have family that owns property in the state.
(I would rather hunt private property for obvious reasons.) I also enjoy hunting with
family.
If states want to limit the amount of hunters for safety and conservation reasons, that is
fine, just do it. The outrageous PRICE GOUGING that you have brought to my attention,
looks like PURE GREED to me.
Indirectly, I am being forced to be an advocate for the hunters of Missouri who wish to
hunt in these states at a reasonable price.
I have scanned the letter that you sent me and will e-mail it to the DNR/DOC of each
state i.e. Illinois, Iowa, Kansas and Oklahoma. I will be asking them about the reasons
for these prices.
Feel free to use this message in any way that will help the average hunter.
Respond if you like...I'll be in the woods...I'm afriaid it might be my last year!
An Illinois resident.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

That's great whitetailaddiction and I agree, we need a cross-state advocacy group that fights for the rights of non-residents. I also agree that if states want to limit non-resident hunters than do it by a lottery system, not price gouging. Did you ever get a response from the other states you scanned and faxed the email to?

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

No. Only from MO DOC.

Somethinglike: " When it comes to discussing nonresident issues like this, discussion can become heated on both sides" blah, blah, blah... Bottom line is that they went ahead and raised it and here we go again.

They dictate policy and if you don't pay you don't play. So what recourse is there really? Vote them out? Hah! They're not elected so there's no leverage there. Further, since it's the non resident who is affected, he has no vote anyway. It's really a good scam they have going here.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

I think one of the problems is an administrative/enforcement problem. For example, my family (previously) qualified for the no-cost landowner tags by owning thirty acres. However, we didn't just hunt our property - i.e. we had permission to hunt neighbor's property. But the landowner tags were limited to the property that we owned. To legally harvest a deer on the neighbor's farm, we were legally obligated to purchase a resident deer tag.

The administrative/enforcement issue: How many people get free landowner tags for owning 20 acres, but then hunt/harvest deersomewhere else? When they cannot(legally) use theirlandowner tags in that manner! How many people limit their hunting to 20 or 30, 40 etc. acres?

Full disclosure: I know several local hunters whose spouses and/or dependent childrenreceiveno-cost landowner permits and mysteriously harvest/tag/and check-indeer without everleavingthe house.A system with such a low acreage requirement can easily be abused.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

Mizzou,

I don't know that folks who only own 20 acres are gonna abuse the system any more (or less) than someone who has 80 acres.In central Illinois you have people who own 200 acre farm without any cover at all on it for deer and they get landowner permits. So, if they tag a deer where do you think it is coming from? If there is abuse in the system, then it is up to the state to better enforce the rules rather than punishing the smaller landowners who should have the same right to get a permit to hunt their land as the largest landowner in the county.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

Statistically - Who is more likely to hunt their own land: the 20-acre landowner or the 80-acre landowner?

Does than mean the 20-acre guywill abuse the system? I don't know.

Personally, I don't care if they eliminate the no-cost landownertags. In Missouri, it just returns us to our original permit system. No-cost tags were a creation of MDC. If MDC wants to eliminate them, they have the authority to do so.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

Mizzou,

I don't know the statistics on that and I dont know that anyone else does either. One could just as easily say that landowner permits should be limited to people who own 1000 acrs or more since there is an even better chance that they will hunt their own land. I just get the impression that if they are pushing for an 80 acre limit, then somewhere they are getting some backing from somebig shots that own 81 acres.

I don't even really care about free tags, but it would be nice to allow any landowner in a given state to purchase tags at resident prices. If they won't do that, or something like it, then they are dealing with some faulty and arbitrary logic in terms of a particular amount of acreage meriting a freebie while slightly lesser acreage doesn't.

RE: Missouri MDC continues to push against hunters!
 

Mizzou.
ActuallyI do! I own 23 acres. but have multiple other pieces of land. and yes i do purchase tags for those pieces of land if i plan on hunting it. as a matter of fact i have sat and watched deer on one piece of land because i couldn't shoot them cause my buck tag was for a different piece.

I will agree that there are probably people abusing the system. But jumping to 80 ares? Oh well i guess i'll go back to paying for my tags. not a big deal as long as the money is properly spent on the areas that need it.