LABS
 

HEY GUYS--I GOT A QUESTION ABOUT POINTING LABS---WHAT ARE PEOPLE CROSSING THEM WITH TO GET THEM TO POINT. I'VE BEEN AROUND DOGS MY ENTIRE LIFE(HAD MY FIRST GRAND SHOW CHAMPION AT AGE 12)AND KNOW IT HAPPENS EVEN WITH PAPERS (CAUSE IF YOU DON'T BREED OVER FOUR LITTERS A YEAR THEN THERE ARE NO PATERNAL DNA TEST DONE BY THE AKC)EXAMPLE--ONCE KNEW A GUY WITH A SOLID BLACK ROTT BRED TO HIS BLACK LAB FEMALE,TWO/THIRDS OF THE PUPS CAME OUT VERY BLOCKY HEADED AND LOOKED JUST LIKE LAB AND THE IDIOT SOLD THEM AS SUCH.( I DON'T BUY HIS DOGS--NOT OFF HIM OR ANYONE -UNLESS I MEET AND SEE THE PARENTS )JUST THOUGHT I'D ASK CAUSE THE ONES WE GOT DON'T POINT(GUESS WE COULD TRAIN THEM TO,THE BREED IS SMART ENOUGH,BUT WE DON'T WANT TO SPEND COUNTLESS HOURS ON TRAINING SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE BASICALLY NATURAL. DOG BREEDING IS AN HONOR SYSTEM--VERY LITTLE OF THAT LEFT ANYMORE IN THE GOOD OLE U.S.

RE: LABS
 

They are not crossing them with anything. Pointing Labs are 100% pure Labs.
You can't train a Lab to point -- you can train them to "stand game" which is totally different than a Lab that points because of genetics.

Now look on the lower left of your keyboard and tap the Caps Lock key --------- Please.


.

RE: LABS
 

I figured I'd get more hits before you responded.Do you breed dogs? If its 100% genectics then why would you breed an undesirable trait in a RETRIEVER (you know -- outside the breed standard),is that not an ethics issuse in itself . A lot of breeders will cheat on paperwork to increase their sales and sell about anything--andlabs are smart enough--smart enough to not let blind people get hit by cars.(By the way alot of seeing eye dogs are golden--lab crosses)All dogs came from cross-breeding until a certain genectic type comes into being--what makes you think people have stopped(they aren't going to tell you when they trying to sell you a certain trait that your looking for) Pointers and Retrievers are two of the simpliest two to figure out what they are supposed to be doing--its in their name.Is that better on the caps lock?

RE: LABS
 

1. Outside the breed standard? What are you talking about?
Labradors are described as being Retrievers --- They are not described as being either Flushers or Pointers.Most Labrador Retrievers are Flushers -- Fewer Labrador Retrievers are Pointers.

2. We now have DNA Tests available to check for unscruplious breedings.

3. Yes :D


.

RE: LABS
 

Are you a breeder.(Please answer--as this will explain many things)Which test are you refering to --the paternalDNA test-- it isn't done on every litter --only if a breeder breeds more than 7 litters from the same sire in his lifetime or at the 6 month inspections if the kennel breeds more than 7 litters a year--They only inspect if you breed 7 litters a year by the way,a lot of litters in that amount of time frame are sold without paternal DNA testing.Even after DNA testing of the parents,most pups are never tested to make sure which parents they came from. Makes it awfully easy for people to register pups fromparents with hunting instincts to other parents ofshow quality(tested parents) for example.A lot of paper swapping going on out there when moneyor competion gets involved.IT IS STILL AN HONOR SYSTEM.The breed standard is what the AKC standard is (no mention of flushing orpointing only retrieving) By the way the AKC is the only regristry trying to do it right but they can't check them all.Does Casey have a pink nose by the way?

RE: LABS
 

RE: LABS
 

What new test --please let me know--because I would love not to get my A** burned again(I did a few years ago on a stud dog,not on genectic health issues--onparentage issues--which pretty much made the genectic health test useless). As far as of the last I knew they still are notDNA testing the dams only the sire. I think all the testing is great but until we get much stricter on parental bloodline accuracy, the rest of the testing is several steps down the line as to trulystart fixing the problem.You got to start at the root of the problem --not the middle of it.
I think casey is a lab that has the ability to point (all dogs have the instinct to creepin ongame if they have a prey instinct-some do it a lot fancier than others)(so do cats)Most dogs will retrieve whenyou play with the puppy (its a game to them when they are a puppy). Alot of pointing breeds have to be trained to force fetch becase they don't want to do it--butsome will.
At the same time no one is trying to call a pointer a retriever. What would you call that a Pointing Retriever or a Retrieving Pointer. Casey is a nice looking dog Doc,I hope it doesn't bite you in the seatmeat when you get to that #7 studout. When you start breeding your going to find out how badthe situation is--15-20 hour drives trying to find good breed stock( I don'tbuy shipped dogs) if hes worth buying,he worth going to get.Most of your shelters will have lab/crossbreds because there are so many of them .(Slightly overbred to say the least).

RE: LABS
 

Doc,

I remember hearing that someone was going to run labs in Bodo's new testing organization. Did that ever happen? How did they do?

RE: LABS
 

Doc,
Which test----I'd really like to know--???????????

RE: LABS
 

DOC is likely talking about EIC testing. Here is a little info for your reading enjoyment.

A syndrome of exercise intolerance and collapse (EIC) has been recognized in young adult Labrador Retrievers.
A comprehensive investigation of EIC in Labrador Retrievers has been ongoing for nearly a decade, involving investigators from the University of Minnesota (EE Patterson, JR Mickelson, KM Minor), the University of Saskatchewan (SM Taylor, CL Shmon), and the Comparative Neuromuscular Unit at the University of California (GD Shelton). The objectives of this research have been to (1) describe the syndrome so that it can be recognized by dog owners, veterinarians and trainers, (2) to thoroughly evaluate affected dogs to try to establish an efficient means of diagnosis and to gain some insight into the cause of collapse, (3) to determine the mode of inheritance and the genetic basis for EIC and (4) to develop a DNA test for the condition.
This document will summarize some of what we have learned about the syndrome of Exercise Induced Collapse in Labrador Retrievers.

WHO GETS IT?
The syndrome of exercise intolerance and collapse (EIC) is being observed with increasing frequency in young adult Labrador Retrievers. Most, but not all, affected dogs have been from field-trial breedings. Black, yellow and chocolate Labradors of both sexes are affected, with the distribution of colors and sexes closely reflecting the typical distribution in field trials (black males most common). Signs first become apparent in young dogs - usually between 5 months and 3 years of age (average 14 months). In dogs used for field trials, this usually coincides with the age at which they enter heavy training. Littermates and other related dogs are commonly affected but depending on their temperament and lifestyle they may or may not manifest symptoms. Affected dogs exhibiting symptoms of collapse are usually described as being extremely fit, muscular, prime athletic specimens of their breed with an excitable temperament and lots of drive. Affected Chesapeake Bay Retrievers and Curly-Coated Retrievers have also been identified.

DESCRIPTION OF COLLAPSE
Affected dogs can tolerate mild to moderate exercise, but 5 to 20 minutes of strenuous exercise with extreme excitement induces weakness and then collapse. Severely affected dogs may collapse whenever they are exercised to this extent - other dogs only exhibit collapse sporadically.
The first thing noted is usually a rocking or forced gait. The rear limbs then become weak and unable to support weight. Many affected dogs will continue to run while dragging their back legs. Some of the dogs appear to be in-coordinated, especially in the rear limbs, with a wide-based, long, loose stride rather than the short, stiff strides typically associated with muscle weakness. In some dogs the rear limb collapse progresses to forelimb weakness and occasionally to a total inability to move. Some dogs appear to have a loss of balance and may fall over, particularly as they recover from complete collapse. Most collapsed dogs are totally conscious and alert, still trying to run and retrieve but as many as 25% of affected dogs will appear stunned or disoriented during the episode.
It is common for the symptoms to worsen for 3 to 5 minutes even after exercise has been terminated. NOTE: A few affected dogs have died during exercise or while resting immediately after an episode of exercise-induced collapse so an affected dog's exercise should ALWAYS be stopped at the first hint of incoordination or wobbliness.
Click here for a video of an EIC episode.

Recovery
Most dogs recover quickly and are normal within 5 to 25 minutes with no residual weakness or stiffness. Dogs are not painful during the collapse or after recovery. Massage of the muscles or palpation of the joints or spine does not cause discomfort. Affected dogs are not stiff or sore or limping upon recovery.
Body Temperature
Body temperature is normal at rest in dogs with EIC but is almost always dramatically increased at the time of collapse (temperature >41.5 C, >107.6F). We have shown experimentally, however, that clinically normal Labrador Retrievers doing this type of exercise for 10 minutes routinely had similar dramatic elevations in body temperature yet exhibited no signs of weakness , collapse or disorientation. (American Journal of Veterinary Research 60(1):88-92, 1999). Dogs with EIC will pant hard during the time of collapse, in an attempt to cool off, but this is similar to normal dogs exercised in the same manner. The time it takes for dogs with EIC to return to their resting temperature after exercise is not different from normal Labrador Retrievers. Although temperature may play some role in EIC, and may even contribute to the death of some affected dogs, inability to properly regulate temperature is not the underlying problem in dogs with EIC.

FACTORS CONTRIBUTING TO COLLAPSE IN DOGS WITH EIC
Ambient Temperature. Actual ambient temperature does not seem to be a critical factor contributing to collapse, but if the temperature is much warmer or the humidity is much higher than what the dog is accustomed to, collapse may be more likely. Excessive panting (hyperventilation) in hot weather may be a contributing factor. Affected dogs are less likely to collapse in cold weather or while swimming, but some dogs have exhibited collapse while breaking ice retrieving waterfowl in frigid temperatures and some dogs have drowned when experiencing EIC -related collapse in the water.
Excitement. Dogs that exhibit the symptoms of EIC are most likely to have intense, excitable personalities, and it is very apparent that their level of excitement plays a role in inducing the collapse. There are some severely affected dogs who, if they are extremely excited, do not even require much exercise to induce the collapse. Dogs with EIC are most likely to collapse when engaging in activities that they find very exciting or stressful. This can include retrieving of live birds, participation in field trials, training drills with electric collar pressure and quartering for upland game.
Type of Exercise. Routine exercise like jogging, hiking, swimming, most waterfowl hunting and even agility or flyball training are not very likely to induce an episode in dogs with EIC. Activities with continuous intense exercise, particularly if accompanied by a high level of excitement or anxiety most commonly cause collapse. Activities commonly implicated include grouse or pheasant hunting, repetitive "happy retrieves", retrieving drills or repetition of difficult marks or blinds where the dog is being repeatedly corrected or is anticipating electric collar correction, and running alongside an ATV.

VETERINARY EVALUATION OF AFFECTED DOGS / MAKING A DIAGNOSIS
Nervous system, cardiovascular and musculoskeletal examinations are unremarkable in dogs with EIC as is routine blood analysis at rest and during an episode of collapse. These dogs do not experience heart rhythm abnormalities, low blood sugar, electrolyte disturbances or respiratory difficulty that could explain their collapse. Body temperature is remarkably elevated during collapse (average 107.1F [41.7C], many up to 108F [42.2C]), but this magnitude of body temperature elevation has been found in normal exercise-tolerant Labradors as well. Affected dogs hyperventilate and experience dramatic alterations in their blood carbon dioxide concentration (decreased) and their blood pH (increased) but these changes are also observed in the normal exercising dogs. Testing for myasthenia gravis (ACh-R ABy) is negative.
Thyroid gland function (T 4, TSH) and adrenal gland cortisol production (ACTH Stimulation test) appear to be normal. Affected dogs are negative for the genetic mutation known to cause malignant hyperthermia in dogs (mutation of the skeletal muscle ryanodine receptor RyR1).
EIC is the most common reason for exercise/excitement induced collapse in young, apparently healthy Labrador Retrievers. Until recently, EIC could only be diagnosed by systematically ruling out all other disorders causing exercise intolerance and collapse and by observing characteristic clinical features, history and laboratory test results in affected dogs. Any Labrador Retriever with exercise intolerance should always have a complete veterinary evaluation to rule-out treatable conditions such as orthopedic disorders, heart failure, anemia, heart rhythm disturbances, respiratory problems, low blood sugar, cauda equina syndrome, myasthenia gravis, hypoadrenocorticism, and muscle disease. Genetic (DNA) testing for EIC is necessary to confirm a suspected diagnosis of EIC. .

LONG TERM OUTLOOK
Dogs symptomatic for EIC are rarely able to continue training or competition. It seems that if affected dogs are removed from training and not exercised excessively the condition will not progress and they will be fine as pets. They are able to continue to live fairly normal lives if owners limit their intense exercise and excitement. Many dogs will seem to "get better" as they age and slow down their activity and their excitement level. It is important that owners of dogs with EIC be made aware that the dog's exercise should be stopped at the first hint of in-coordination or wobbliness as some affected dogs have died during collapse when their owners allowed or encouraged continuing exercise. Not all of the EIC deaths have occurred in dogs rated as severely affected based on their number of episodes of collapse or the amount of activity required to induce an episode.

TREATMENT
The best treatment in most dogs consists of avoiding intensive exercise in conjunction with extreme excitement and ending exercise at the first sign of weakness/wobbliness. A few dogs have, however, responded to medical treatment to the degree that they can re-enter training and competition at a high level. Each of the treatments listed below has been effective in a few dogs, but none of them has been 100% effective in all dogs.
Treatment as a metabolic myopathy. We initially felt that EIC was a metabolic myopathy caused by an enzyme deficiency leading to a defect in oxidative metabolism within the brain and muscle. Even though we know that EIC is not a metabolic myopathy, few affected dogs have been reported to have a positive clinical response to oral supplementation with L-carnitine (50mg/kg 2X/day), CoEnzyme Q10 (100mg/day) and Riboflavin (100 mg/day) - a standard cocktail for metabolic myopathies/neuropathies.
Treatment with 7-KETO. A few severely affected dogs have responded positively to a nutraceutical called 7-KETO. This is a breakdown product of the hormone dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), a steroid made by the adrenal glands and brain. The dosage used has been 100 mg twice each day. The precise mechanism of action of 7-KETO in affected dogs is unknown, but it has demonstrated positive effects on energy production in the muscle and brain as well as acting as a neuroactive steroid, with effects on several neurotransmitter receptors in the brain.
Treatment with Phenobarbital. There are now numerous reports of severely affected dogs improving when they were treated with Phenobarbital (2 mg/kg every 12 hours or every 24 hours). The actual mechanism underlying its effectiveness in dogs with EIC is uncertain. It is possible that this drug just "takes the edge off" and decreases the dog's level of excitement, thus making it less likely that they will have an episode. This drug should only be administered with strict veterinary supervision and monitoring.

DIFFERENTIATING EIC FROM HEAT STROKE
There have been a number of good veterinary reviews of heat stroke in dogs recently and the syndrome we are seeing with EIC is very different. With heat stroke - induced collapse in dogs you expect to see a very slow or prolonged recovery that can take hours to days, or else progression to death. Laboratory evaluation reveals a dramatic increase in CK (usually 7-11X normal). Mentation changes that are severe, progressive and persistent (for hours to days) occur in 80% of affected dogs and significant endothelial injury leads to microvascular thrombosis, DIC, thrombocytopenia and bleeding as well as acute renal failure in most patients. In contrast, dogs with EIC collapse without showing laboratory abnormalities and they recover quickly - happy and running around within 5 to 25 minutes.

DIFFERENTIATING EIC FROM MALIGNANT HYPERTHERMIA
We have also learned enough about EIC to say with certainty that it is not the same as malignant hyperthermia (MH). The Minnesota collaborators in the EIC Project (Mickelson et al) recently confirmed that in dogs as in other species MH it is caused by a mutation in the calcium release channel of the sarcoplasmic reticulum in skeletal muscle – the ryanodine receptor. All of the affected EIC dogs evaluated at the WCVM were genotyped and tested for the known ryanodine receptor mutation and for linkage to other sites on chromosome 1, eliminating this mutated gene as the cause of EIC. Dogs with collapse due to MH typically look very different from our dogs with EIC. Their muscles are rigid (not flaccid like EIC) and they have increased CK in their serum. Histologically their muscles show rhabdomyolysis (EIC dogs’ muscles are normal). Dogs with MH often hypoventilate due to persistent muscular contraction so they are hypercarbic (where dogs with EIC hyperventilate).

DIFFERENTIATING EIC FROM A MITOCHONDRIAL MYOPATHY
Although our initial study of dogs with EIC was designed to detect a mitochondrial myopathy (a defect in the oxidative metabolism leading to energy production in muscle), we now know that EIC is not a metabolic myopathy. Most dogs with mitochondrial myopathies have severe exercise intolerance that can be consistently demonstrated with even mild exercise. Most develop extreme lactic acidemia with even mild exercise and an elevated lactate to pyruvate ratio. Many have “ragged red fibers” demonstrated on histopathology which are really just subsarcolemmal mitochondria as well as ultrastructural changes to the mitochondria - none of this is evident in dogs with EIC and it has become apparent that dogs with EIC suffer more from neurologic dysfunction than from muscular weakness.

DIFFERENTIATING EIC FROM EPILEPSY
Some Labrador Retrievers that we have evaluated because of collapse episodes do not have EIC but instead have an unusual form of epilepsy. The "collapse" episodes that these dogs experience typically have a very sudden onset and very sudden resolution and are sometimes very brief (less than 2 minutes) - unlike EIC where there seems to be a more gradual progression of weakness, in-coordination or collapse and a gradual recovery taking from 5 to 30 minutes. In this unusual form of epilepsy (almost exclusively seen in Labrador Retrievers) the dog maintains consciousness but exhibits a problem with gait, balance, or muscle tone. Excitement and exercise are common triggers for these seizures in affected dogs (perhaps because of hyperventilation), leading to confusion between this seizure disorder and EIC. In some dogs with this form of epilepsy the episodes do not progress further, but other dogs will develop more typical generalized seizures later in life with loss of consciousness, muscle twitches, paddling of the limbs, etc.

RE: LABS
 

OK, I just got done looking into "breed content" DNA testing.
The test is not yet available to the public, and is part of the Canine Genome study.
They are finding some interesting things already though.
UC Davis is doing part of the study. They are testing various breeds, but so far, they have
studied GSPs more than other breeds.and now some significant results have been published on the mapping of the canine genome and it may be possible to detect "hanky-panky" in a single dog's dna. I understand (by rumor only) there has been considerable study of the dna of American GSPs which has identified an outcross to EPs and even the dog used in the outcross.
Sorry for the confusion.


.

RE: LABS
 

Now we are back to the fact that raising and selling dogs is still an
HONOR SYSTEM.Thank you for all responses.Please read the whole thing--and respond if you wish.I will now tell the rest of the storyon somedealings that have been going on for some time. The A** with the rott/lab actually has about 20 Labs and breeds them all--he is currently selling them to a broker in Grand Rapids,MIfor 195.00 each.(I heard about it from a guy at work so I drove out to see for myself,he wasn't lying).The guy was very nice and gladly bragged about it--said the broker did'nt care if he had papers or not--he(the broker) would put GOOD papers on them. The dogs appeared well cared for and each wore a bark collar,. due toit beingset up in a subdivision in his shop behind his house.The rott is to keep people away from his dogs when hes not home. He also told me that he soldaround 100 pups to thisbrokerlast year(2007),there weren't any pups there at the time.Now this is where your problems are starting--I don't know how long this has been going on but he did tell me that thebroker hunted alot and didn't want to take his females away from hunting season and develope an unsightly sack. Sorry but he wouldn't disclose the Brokers name and thats about the time he started getting very defensive about me being there so I left after that.Now you see why dna testing needs to be done.In 5 yrs. there will be 500 of them in the Great Lakes region alone.

Now I have another --about a month ago, my family and I went to the drivein(movies). A lady about two cars down had a dog of some kind. My son being used to being around some very niceAKCdogsquickly pointed out to us it was a mutt quite loudly, at this point I had a very short and to the point discussion with him as to how rude hebehaving and that whateverthe dog was, she loved it anyway or it wouldn't be there with her.I was sure she had overheard,he then promptlywent to her and said he was sorry (At which time he did ask what type of dog it was and her response with a grin was "hes a mutt,but my big baby)

Now doc I've read how you keep on people about testing and it is a great thing having a dog you have complete faith and trust in his breeding and genectics, It has been stated that you yourself are a backyard breeder(no insult implied here--you just honestly haven't bred that many times--not enough to even have toDNA testing requiredyet,although I'm sure you have already done it yourself). You are a very responsible breeder who cares about his dogs, but the way you are talking to people is not unlike my 10year old. I've been watching this site for awhile and my suggestion is to contact the mods and have all the test anddata posted ina permanent post (right below the moderaters).You cangreatly improve how many people see it,people that my not read every ad you respond to. Please be tactful in the writing though--Facts and Figures only.

RE: LABS
 

I'm hardly a backyard breeder either. My dog has all of the genetic tests that are available at the time of breeding. I require the same of the females. Casey has only been studded 4 times (has 28 offspring).

There are a few sites that require litter postings to also include the genetic tests on the parents -- along with the registered names (so that people can look it up to verify).

As far as it being an "Honor System" you are definitely correct.


.