WI AKC Lab pups
 

AKC lab pups born to great hunters on 7/10/08. Sire is a big blocky yellow pointing lab with great drive on water and upland. Dam is a small fast working black with great energy and speed. No family historys of hip, elbow, or eye problems. Litter of 10 with both sexes of all 3 colors. 1 choc female, 2 choc males, 3 yellow males, 2 yellow females, and 1 black male and female. Pups ahve first shots and dews removed. Ready to go last week of August. $350-450

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Family history has little to do with these pups.
So, on the parents of this litter, do you have Hip or Elbow certifications? CNM? PRA? CERF? EIC?


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RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

I've been in pissin matches before about it (prolly with you) and certifications don't always mean anything either so thanks for your opinion and I'll leave it at that. WCL

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Please tell us more -- I'm always willing to learn.



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RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

I've seen dogs with certifications get diagnosed with hip displaysia so I'll leave it at that. WCL

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

So have I -- Hip dysplasia is a multifactorial disease. It's genetic, but there are other influencing factors. I can quote you the exact percentage of the odds of dysplasia are for every OFA rating combination possible --- Can you?
How about CNM ---- There is a test that is 100% accurate. There is a test for PRA that is 100% accurate.

Don't come to a battle of wits if you're unarmed.


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RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

maybe he's too scared to argue with his wife so he come on here to relieve stress. Get a hobby.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

I don't care about your percentages. I know my dogs and I know there is no problems in them for as many generations as I and past generation owners know (who I know very well). My dogs and their history have proven to be 100% free of problems.A certified dogs owner can say my dog is certified yet in apast generation have problems yet the pups are sold certified so in my opinion thats BS. If thats not good enough for you I really don't give a ****. Back off and go worry about bigger issues in this world rather than a family of dogs you know nothing about. Thanks and I'd appreciate it if you would stay off my threads. You did your job of making someone you know nothing about look like an idiotand ruin their post so thanks and have a good day. I'm not one of those people who is breeding crap dogs so enough is enough and get over it. WCL

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

I didn'tchallenge youto a battle of wits thank you very much Doc(BUSH).

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

1. Just like you don't care to have proof of what you're saying.

2. So that means you must be a Veterinary Opthalmologist --- A CERF exam (looking in the eyes)is the only way that Retinal Folds can be discovered (among other genetic eye diseases). When it comes to CNM & EIC there are three possibilities :
1.) Affected (exhibits the disease) 2.) Carrier (you don't know without the genetic testing) 3.) Clear (you also don't know without testing).
So, if one of your dogs is a Carrier, and is bred to a Clear, 25% of those pups will carry the defect -- and in the futurewhen they are bred to another carrier, 25% of those pups will be Affected, 25% will be Carriers and 50% will be Clear.................... Without Testing, YOU DO NOT KNOW !
3. History proves NOTHING ! There have been thousands of dogs bred because their "history" -------- And that's exactly why there are so many genetic diseases in Labs....... You are part of that problem !
4. I believe that proper breeding practices are important. It's quite easy to see that you don't........... Once you won this site or become a Moderator, I'll post wherever I think I can be of assistance to dog people.
5. He made himself look like an idiot ---- and now you are doing the same.
6. Once again, I say YOU DO NOT KNOW without proper testing (animal husbandry). And once again, I say, "Don't come to a battle fo wits if you're unarmed".............. I have facts, you have hopes that could turn out to be nightmares.


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RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Are you providing a 100% guarantee on these pups that they will not have problems? That shows a lot of confidence in your genetics; especially without tests to back it up. What would you do if one or more of the pups turns out to have hip dysplasia?

Personally, in my breed of choice, we only keep an close eye on hip dysplasia and dental problems. Using OFA, I would never breed anything worse than Fair; and Fair hips would only be bred to Excellent hips. Any dental problems, regardless whether its a jaw development issues, a malocclusion of any type or missing/extra teeth and the dog is removed from the breeding program.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Poor fella can't come up with any more intellectually stimulatingresponses. :eek::(


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RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Doc you don't deserve a response. You pretty much ruined the guys thread already so why should he. Wingchaser good luck with your pups, i am sure you wont have any problems. Next year i will be looking for a pup and i will keep you in mind.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

He ruins all the threads. He just comes on to argue. Theres a few on every forum.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

If someone would truly post something intellectual that would disprove my comments, I'd certainly be "put in my place" now wouldn't I?
Too bad that nobody can in a case like this.


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RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

No more than he cares about dog health, he'll probably be breeding these dogs at her next heat cycle anyway :(

Good Luck with your new pup ---- You'll need it.


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RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Like I said I'm done with doc and didnt even read his posts so no I have no comment. I guess all you can do is ignorethe guy cuz obviously he has nothign better to doI didnt come on here to fight about ****. I did read the last comment though and your wrong doc, she will not be bred her next heat cycle but yes will be bred again, so don't be a dick and judge others based on your arrogant control mindset. I'm SERIOUSLY done with you and dont give a crap what you wanna tell me yet you continue to do so wasting your time for some reason I guess. Post all you want on here I really dont care cuz I'm not gonna be reading it anyways. Have a good one and take er easy. WCL

Vindog- If your lookin for a pup next year look me up. I prolly won't have a litter myself but a guy I know uses my male once or twice a year and I get pick of the litter pup so I may be able to have one for you depending on when he decides to use him. Thanks

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

When you deal with Labs, Spaniels or other breeds of dogs that have genetic problems. You are going to run across these questions. It is not only Doc or the other 1000s of people who want to see a breedbettered as a whole.
It is your responsibility as breeder to make sure that your sire and dam are registered and have all of their tests completed. This is nothing new, it just didn't come about this year. This has been going on for quite a while.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

X2---I have a dear friend and she breeds dual purpose English Labs. I have been to nearly every Lab Specialty show in the Midwest. I have eaten dinner with Kendall Herr, David Volet, Nancy Arbuckle, the late Annie Cogo, Karen Helmers, Carol Heidl, the list goes on. These breeders are preserving the original type of the breed and do not make money. They test for OFA, Optigen, Temper and guarantee their dogs.

When you are purchasing a dog you are investing on a lifetime of love and loyalty. Second guesses have no place in breeding animals, I have seen labs that came from great hunting backgrounds yet were cripled after a few years by hip and elbow issues.

I had a lab that was lost in a divorce due to Illinois policy of possession. I for one can track my dogs family history. I know she only carried the Black Gene ans did her Brother. I know they were both Optigen A and cleared through the family lines for hip and elbows. Breeding these dogs is not something to be taken lightly and guessing the health is not acceptable. If you buy a Lab and don't care about their health you are a fool. Here are my pups family-

Her brother and opposite pick of the litter
http://www.easthilllabs.com/hank.htm

Her Sire, number 1 lab in the world in 1997 and number one show dog in the US from 97-99. JH titled and hunted dual purpose show dog. This dog live to be 14 and never suffered a day with hip or elbow problems.
I was fortunate to meet him and there was never a nicer lab.
http://www.belquest.com/aaron.html

Her Dam who resides in Indiana and is still healthy and doing great.
http://www.bigskylabs.com/siggy.htm

I can find records going back generations on these dogs. The breeders have been around for decades in some cases and they spend the money testing these dogs out. Dogs that are found to be in danger of genetic disease are usually given away to familys that can care for them and will not run them to the point the the hip and elbow issues will get severe. Breeding dogs should not be a money making endeavor, it is about the preservation of the breed, if you do breed you owe it to the animals you breed to check health and breed to health. For those that have stuck up for stricter breeding thank you, life is too short to have an unhealthy and crippled lab.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Well said daleh. Yes, all breeds have their problems. And a responsible breeder will test their breeding dogs for the breed-specific problems. Not a gaurantee that the puppies will be free of the problems, just trying to narrow the odds a bit. If a breeder does no testing at all, then it really does become a crap-shoot.

I agree, this "discussion" is nothing new. The responsible breeders and the BYB's have been going at it for years and will probably continue forever. And just like there are breeders who don't care to do the testing, there are buyers who also don't do the research or don't care about the testing and the value of a responsible breeder. I can't count the number of calls I have got over the years where a person knows nothing about my breed (except they're cute)or where the first thing out of their mouth is "How much are your puppies". I can teach the ones who don't know anything about the breed, but, unfortunately,it's seldom that I can convince someone of the value of my dogs over the dogs for 1/2 the price from some BYB. The cheapest dog is not necessarily the cheapest dog.

I guess this is my long-winded way of saying that if you are thinking about buying a puppy, research the breed. Understand the differences between the responsible breeders and the BYB's. There's a TON of information out there.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

I wonder if "wingchaser_labs" would like to see the results of a poll concerning his stance on Genetic Health Certifications vs Those of us who believe in responsible breeding,,,,,,,,,,,
Nah -- He wouldn't like it --- but on the other hand, it wouldn't change his practices either.
Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever.


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RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Hi WCL,
I wanted to see if any of the pups are still available. I sent you an email through this board with my contact information.

Duncan

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Nice gamble on your first ever HNI post. I mean, why even check the bloodlines of the dogs since you are getting a verbal guarantee and a handshake.:eek:

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

If you are so certain in the health of your kennel why don't you guarantee and test your dogs, are you hiding something?

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

What's the guarantee going to do? You've already brought the dog home. You've invested your time and money to train it. You and your family have become attached to the dog!! Now you find out it has Hip Dysplasia because the breeder wasn't responsible enough to figure out the risks before breeding. What are you going to do now? Trade it in with the same breeder to get another dog that has the same percentage chance of hip problems as the one you've just gone through this ordeal with. Even if it was a full refund, which would be very unlikely, the damage caused is more than the value of the guarantee.

It amazes me that there is a market for dogs like these.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Are you serious???? By testing the dogs they eliminate unhealthy dogs from the breeding program. I know a lab breeder that had a dog that they were offered 40k for, I will not disclose the kennel name or dog but a very well known show dog. the breeder found out that the dog had a degentitive heart condition and pulled him from any stud services and didn't sell the dog, it is in a pet home and doing great. Now this breeder could have hosed a breeder out of country and taken the 40k or kept studding the dog out, instead she eliminated the dog from future breedings and notified the people that bred to the dog. The dog never had a history of heart problems in his lines.

The whole reason you run these tests is to make sure any dog you are breeding is healthy before you start breeding them. By testing you are reducing the chance of having unhealthy dogs. The breeder I know will sell an English dual purpose lab for 800-1000 bucks and refund the fee if the dog ever develops a disease she has screened for. For an extra 400 bucks I can get a beautiful dog from the best lines with a health guarantee or take my chances and hope a breeder that doesn't test their dogs hooks me up with a healthy dog. The chances of getting a dog with a health issue is much higher with a lab from a backyard breeder like Wingchaser since there is a lack of thorough records in the lines.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

I have no problem with what you are saying. However, I'd rather have a dog from a breeder that has tested his sire and bitch who doesn't give a guarantee than a pup from a breeder that doesn't test and gives a guarantee.

The guarantee means nothing compared with taking the steps to verify that you are not passing on genetic problems.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Here's my take on gaurantee's:

Gaurantees from breeders are like anything else, how good they are is totally dependent of how responsible the breeder is and/or how the puppy contract is written. There are a couple breeders around here in my breed that have a 5 year gaurantee!! Imagine that, for 5 years, no worries. WRONG! I've seen the contracts from both of those breeders and it would be all but impossible to comply with the terms of the contract and qualify for the gaurantee. Those breeders know that and count on it.

Or youbuy fromthe BYB that decided to breed their Fluffy with Spike down the streetand make a few bucks. Maybe it's the only litter they will ever have or they only breed once every few years. Even if you wanted a replacement puppy, how would you get one?

The best thing you can hope for if you buy a puppy from a less-than-responsible breeder is that the state the breederare in has some sort of puppy lemon law. Not that those types of laws are the ultimate solution, but at least it's something.

So my position is and always has been: shop the breeders, not price. And when I say shop the breeders, I mean see that they are doing the health testing on both the dam and sire and can prove it with the original documents; tougher to alter an original document.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

you are very lucky you can follow history of each puppy to new owners as they grow older.

if you are truly doing this, you arespending great deal of time.i wish most dog breeders would do this,they dont,so many problems go undected.

from what i see, even with a gauarntee, most like me would never return dog,we all get attached to our puppies.

you would not believe the number of dogs,LABS from backyard breeders that have health problems.

i see a ton of it, most is TUMORS,HIP PROBLEMS and now, BITING OR AGGRESSION.

my vet said he is seeing a ton of biting, yes, biting labs coming to him.

unless you can go back thru each dog on HISTORY and confirm that they did not have problems,which you said you did,you cant really say there is no problems.

certificate of health of mom/dadand as far back as you can,is very important,not to many byb that can ever do that in writing.

labs can be 1 sick puppy if they problems in history,i see many that were put to sleep after 2 years old and most were TUMORS and a TON OF HIP PROBLEMS.

i would take a MIX breed dog over a FULL pedigree dog if i was buying from a breeder without a health gaurantee and reputation.

i am not knocking your puppies, they couldbe most healthy pupsbut its roll of dice without confirmed backgrounds of dad/mom/grandpops/great grandpops.great grandmams.

i would just explain TO all that to anyone buying a pup,tell them, THIS BREED HAS HEALTH PROBLEMS, I DONT KNOW OF ANY THAT I AM AWARE OF WITH DAD/MOMAND I HAVE NO WRITTEN GAUARANTEE ON HEALTH.

i am sure even with telling all that, you will sell everyone of them, i see them sold as fast as they are born here in my neck of woods in pa.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

i dont believe that is reason, a lot dont have records of past dogs.

also he would have to charge more, like 800 dollars and a lot of work and possibly not see dogs.

if you go over 400 dollars for lab ,its hard to sell a puppy UNLESS you are well known breeder.

going price here in pa. for backyard breeder puppy is 350 dollars............:eek:

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

MUSTAD
I get what you are saying if no one else does.
The cheepest money you ever spend is what the pup or dog costs.
Think about this
$500 Pup
24 months of dog food, shots, dewormer about
$1,000
kennel, house bowl, water bucket snap hooks, collars, etc.
$400
Training 6 months at 400
$2400
$4300.00 invested
Does anyone think that a breeder is going to give you that back. NO WAY
Everything that a responsible person can do should be done.
Bottom Line that means the Breeder and the potental new owner.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

At the end of 12 years, an $800 dollarpuppy only costs 1-1/2 cents a day more than the $200 puppy.
If a penny and a half a day isn't worth having the best possible chance of a genetically sound pup, you live in a different world than I do.


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RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Doc, do you need a hug, you are obviously a very unhappy man. im sorry.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

I don't need a hug.
Yes, I am unhappy --- Unhappy about crap breedings that further accentuate genetic issues in Labs (as though we don't have enough already).
How about you telling me everything that I've said that isn't the truth.
My posts are based on facts.
C'mon, show me just ONE thing I've said that isn't true. Don't feel bad, because you can't -- now I guess you are the one that needs a hug.


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RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Im not saying that you have said anything incorrect. im just saying, why cant you make your point and then leave. why do you have to keep bothering people? Maybe some people do not worry about those things as much as you do. I know that i bought a choc lab without any type of test and that was 9 years ago. the only problem he has ever had is where will he play next. I understand that you are concerned about it, hell, im concerned if i will have to go to Iraq for a third tour but i dont run around complaining about it. Bottom line is, why cant you just say your piece and if the guy still chooses to purchace the puppy, just wish him luck? why do you have to make a big deal about it. This world has bigger issues then this guys puppy. How about the war in iraq, or afghanastan, or maybe pakistan, maybe the 5000+ troops that have died protecting your right to complain. why not direct your aggression towards something productive. just a thought

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

1. If you think that trying to protect people (and dogs) from the heartache of genetic issues is "bothering" them, then too bad for you.

2. Maybe my posts will help others start worrying about these issues as much as I do.

3. I truly thank you for your service -- I and all true Americans appreciate your sacrifice (that you probably voluntered for). I served during Viet Nam, and I don't complain about that either.............. 50,000 American troops were killed.

4. Because it is a big deal --- If you don't believe me, just visit an animal (euthanasia) shelter.

5. This is a Hunting Dog forum --- not a political forum, that's why. Why would you bring war into the discussion on a Hunting Dog forum?

6. I am.


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RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Sir, i wish you well in all your endeavors and hope that you find what your looking for. Take Care

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Doc- I applaud your fight for a serious issue.

Growing up I spent many weekends at the Vets office. My best friends father owned one in Lombard, Illinois and we used to help out. I would often hold the dogs and calm them while they were put to sleep since the owners were to big of pussies to be there for the dogs they so dearly loved. I would then put them in the freezer until they were cremated or burried. What killed me is many of these dogs looked fine but had genetic issues, this was my first taste of poor breeding and a wake up call.

Currently I am an advocate for shelter dogs, we have an incredible shelter that we donate our time to. Our company provides 750.00 for us donating 50 hours, we also contribute at least 1000.00 a year ourselves. I often see labs brought in and the same ole story. The dog is to hyper for the family because it was bred poorly, the dog has eye problems and needs thousands in surgery so dump it off. The dog has elbow issues or hip problems and can't run so it is worthless and gets dumped off.

To say that not checking health through modern means is plain ignorant, lazy, cheap and assnine. Anyone breeding dogs for profit is doing nothing for their breed, to say it comes from a good line and has this, that, or the other is pointless. put your money where your mouth is if you are selling dogs. Check a few common ailments through genetic testing and be upfront with potential buyers. Yes things can still happen but by checking the dogs you are reducing the chances of genetic defects.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

I know that I should not get in the middle of this. But Doc I also applaud you. Why would anyone to spend the money and the time to pick outa puppy only to get one without the health clearances. If you are going to spend all the time it takes to properly train a dog for hunting then why wouldn't you get a dog with health clearances. I guess that I am saying that if you get a careless bred dog for pretty cheap over a more expesive one that has its clearances done, then when you can't hunt the dog anymore at a early age what have you gained? Nothing.It is more expensive to have to buy another puppy (after putting the first one down)than to just spend the extra money in the begining and get a dog that you know youwill never have to worry about its hips and elbows. Not to mentionall the time, energy, and moneyyougive to train a dog that you won't be able to hunt over anymore. Besides that it is not fair to the dog that theygo through the pain of having bad hips and elbows, when it could have been avoided with a responsible breeding. By the way DocTucker is a very good looking pup. I can't wait until Iget myself a fox red lab that has all the health clearances done.

RE: WI AKC Lab pups
 

Hey Doc, do you contact and treat people in your local classifieds like this also? I didn't think so. So quit hiding behind your computer and picking people out. You seem to know what you are talking about, but singling someone out to make you look superiormakes me want to [:'(]