Neck pain from rifle scope position
11-16-2019, 06:32 AM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
I have never condoned the use of a recoil pad, or otherwise a stock spacer, to correct eye relief of an optic.
The Length of Pull (LOP) of a stock is a critical dimension to fit the rifle to the shorter for ergonomics, control, and recoil management. Adding an unnecessary stock spacer or recoil pad acting as a spacer increases the LOP - this might compromise the shooter’s cheek weld and wrist position, and increase felt recoil and decrease control over the rifle by causing a poor fit. Rifles, rails, rings, and optics are designed to allow for the optic to be positioned appropriately in front of the shooter’s eye when the stock is properly fit to the shoulder and the cheek weld properly made on the stock. If you’re straining to get your head back far enough, I’d guess you’re at least an inch too close in your natural position, likely 2” behind where your cheek weld SHOULD be when cheeking the rifle. Adding that much pad instead of correcting with rings would put a standard 10/22 at 15.5” LOP, which, for a point in space, would be 2 1/4” too long for me, a shooter with a 6’1” wingspan.
It’s a bandaid fix at best. Arm wrestling with yourself about spending $30 for a slip on recoil pad which doesn’t fix the actual problem instead of spending the same $30 for offset rings which DO fix the actual problem doesn’t make sense to me.
The Length of Pull (LOP) of a stock is a critical dimension to fit the rifle to the shorter for ergonomics, control, and recoil management. Adding an unnecessary stock spacer or recoil pad acting as a spacer increases the LOP - this might compromise the shooter’s cheek weld and wrist position, and increase felt recoil and decrease control over the rifle by causing a poor fit. Rifles, rails, rings, and optics are designed to allow for the optic to be positioned appropriately in front of the shooter’s eye when the stock is properly fit to the shoulder and the cheek weld properly made on the stock. If you’re straining to get your head back far enough, I’d guess you’re at least an inch too close in your natural position, likely 2” behind where your cheek weld SHOULD be when cheeking the rifle. Adding that much pad instead of correcting with rings would put a standard 10/22 at 15.5” LOP, which, for a point in space, would be 2 1/4” too long for me, a shooter with a 6’1” wingspan.
It’s a bandaid fix at best. Arm wrestling with yourself about spending $30 for a slip on recoil pad which doesn’t fix the actual problem instead of spending the same $30 for offset rings which DO fix the actual problem doesn’t make sense to me.
its a double edged sword here, since we are NOT him
as, you stated, most folks can use a standard 10/22 with its OEM set up, but this also is a fact,
that most folks can use a scope with basic rings without need of reverse rings! to be usable!
Might end up being a combination of Both here to get things to fit best to be honest!
since the OP is not a real big gun guy, he maybe should go to a gun shop that has other rifles with scopes on them and see how they fit, as most LOP on rifles is close to the same from make to make(NOT ALL) as is eye relief on scopes(again NOT all are the same, but most are close when comparing like models and 3x9x40's are very common scopes)
if he finds they all need him to hold a few inches off his shoulder to work, then
maybe a good shop can also see what his form is like and make a suggestion based on him actually being in front of them, , where as here , were all guessing at what the true issue is,
is it form, is it rings, or is length of pull wrong, or all 3?
rather than just buying items, might be again better off going to a good gun shop and seeing what they say, and trying other rifles with scopes and see if there is a difference or not?
Last edited by mrbb; 11-16-2019 at 06:35 AM.
11-16-2019, 11:32 AM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,902
Consider: an A2 stock on an AR-15 has a LOP of 13.5”, and almost all shooters benefit from having a cantilevered optic mount which sets the adjustment body at the front of the receiver - a position not attainable with standard vertical rings. Even with my VERY short neck, I still end up with my scopes in cantilever mounts to get my optics forward far enough. Can’t come remotely close to getting my nose to the charging handle unless I’m holding only the toe in the pocket ala Service Rifle Standing, but I still have to push my optics all the way to the front, like everyone else.
Very few gunshops remain in the US which have any experience at all in stock-fitting. We’ve seen far too many generations of generic rifle fitting for any of that to carry forward. Unless a shop has a staff gunsmith who can actually manage smithing tasks, instead of only simple clean and repair jobs, most shops would be a dead end.
The OP is likely to get closer by simply measuring from the crook of the elbow to the tip of the finger. Hold the pad of the trigger finger perpendicular to the forearm bones. Hold the wrist slightly indexed outward, heel of hand SLIGHTLY pressed inward, with the hand tilted downward to between 30-45 degrees (thumb side tilted forward, pinky side tilted backward/downward). Hold the elbow at 90 degrees. Measure between the crook of the elbow and the pad of the trigger finger. This is USUALLY within +/-1/4-1/2” of a natural, controllable, and comfortable LOP for most shooters. This same position can also be used to measure a shooters appropriate trigger reach in the hand.
Bending the frame of your truck to correct poor wheel alignment might be a solution for uneven tire wear, but not all solutions are good solutions.
Very few gunshops remain in the US which have any experience at all in stock-fitting. We’ve seen far too many generations of generic rifle fitting for any of that to carry forward. Unless a shop has a staff gunsmith who can actually manage smithing tasks, instead of only simple clean and repair jobs, most shops would be a dead end.
The OP is likely to get closer by simply measuring from the crook of the elbow to the tip of the finger. Hold the pad of the trigger finger perpendicular to the forearm bones. Hold the wrist slightly indexed outward, heel of hand SLIGHTLY pressed inward, with the hand tilted downward to between 30-45 degrees (thumb side tilted forward, pinky side tilted backward/downward). Hold the elbow at 90 degrees. Measure between the crook of the elbow and the pad of the trigger finger. This is USUALLY within +/-1/4-1/2” of a natural, controllable, and comfortable LOP for most shooters. This same position can also be used to measure a shooters appropriate trigger reach in the hand.
Bending the frame of your truck to correct poor wheel alignment might be a solution for uneven tire wear, but not all solutions are good solutions.
11-16-2019, 01:17 PM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
Consider: an A2 stock on an AR-15 has a LOP of 13.5”, and almost all shooters benefit from having a cantilevered optic mount which sets the adjustment body at the front of the receiver - a position not attainable with standard vertical rings. Even with my VERY short neck, I still end up with my scopes in cantilever mounts to get my optics forward far enough. Can’t come remotely close to getting my nose to the charging handle unless I’m holding only the toe in the pocket ala Service Rifle Standing, but I still have to push my optics all the way to the front, like everyone else.
Very few gunshops remain in the US which have any experience at all in stock-fitting. We’ve seen far too many generations of generic rifle fitting for any of that to carry forward. Unless a shop has a staff gunsmith who can actually manage smithing tasks, instead of only simple clean and repair jobs, most shops would be a dead end.
The OP is likely to get closer by simply measuring from the crook of the elbow to the tip of the finger. Hold the pad of the trigger finger perpendicular to the forearm bones. Hold the wrist slightly indexed outward, heel of hand SLIGHTLY pressed inward, with the hand tilted downward to between 30-45 degrees (thumb side tilted forward, pinky side tilted backward/downward). Hold the elbow at 90 degrees. Measure between the crook of the elbow and the pad of the trigger finger. This is USUALLY within +/-1/4-1/2” of a natural, controllable, and comfortable LOP for most shooters. This same position can also be used to measure a shooters appropriate trigger reach in the hand.
Bending the frame of your truck to correct poor wheel alignment might be a solution for uneven tire wear, but not all solutions are good solutions.
Very few gunshops remain in the US which have any experience at all in stock-fitting. We’ve seen far too many generations of generic rifle fitting for any of that to carry forward. Unless a shop has a staff gunsmith who can actually manage smithing tasks, instead of only simple clean and repair jobs, most shops would be a dead end.
The OP is likely to get closer by simply measuring from the crook of the elbow to the tip of the finger. Hold the pad of the trigger finger perpendicular to the forearm bones. Hold the wrist slightly indexed outward, heel of hand SLIGHTLY pressed inward, with the hand tilted downward to between 30-45 degrees (thumb side tilted forward, pinky side tilted backward/downward). Hold the elbow at 90 degrees. Measure between the crook of the elbow and the pad of the trigger finger. This is USUALLY within +/-1/4-1/2” of a natural, controllable, and comfortable LOP for most shooters. This same position can also be used to measure a shooters appropriate trigger reach in the hand.
Bending the frame of your truck to correct poor wheel alignment might be a solution for uneven tire wear, but not all solutions are good solutions.
I know when I had my shop I would watch customers shoulder used rifles I kept where they could access them freely, and you'd be surprised how many have NO clue how to shoulder a rifle or worse when there is a scope on them.
and even worse, many would then come uop to counter and brag about how experienced a shooter they were!
so, I still say a decent gun shop can help ID if its a issue with form, if its off a lot
I own dozens( well over a 100 ) rifles with scopes on them, the ONLY one's I have reverse rings on, are a few custom built ultra light rifles!
and they wear small light weight scopes, that just needed to go forward a little more than rest!
I have not had any issue';s with needing them rings on anything else ?
many issue's with AR's is the fact how HIGH a scope sits on them, causing again poor shooting form, for optic's period!
unless your dealing with a flat top receiver, and even then, most will still work fine with basic rings(have about 2+ dozen AR's like this) as the base design allows for a lot of forward movement IMO!
measuring length of pull , works great like you posted, but
IMO honestly won;t help completely if , the shooters form is way off?
11-16-2019, 01:20 PM
#14
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 4
Thank you both, this is all great information.
I measured my LOP, which is 15 1/4 in. I measure my rifle stock LOP and that is 13 3/8 in. That's almost a 2 inch difference, which is what I'm missing for correct eye relief.
I'll shop around and try to find a 2 inch thick recoil pad to makeup that difference
I measured my LOP, which is 15 1/4 in. I measure my rifle stock LOP and that is 13 3/8 in. That's almost a 2 inch difference, which is what I'm missing for correct eye relief.
I'll shop around and try to find a 2 inch thick recoil pad to makeup that difference
11-16-2019, 02:51 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
many recoil pads have SPACERS you can add between the recoil pad and the stock to make up more adjustments
or can just buy spacers and re use OEM recoil pad
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/categor...platesrec-pads
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...cers/index.htm
or can just buy spacers and re use OEM recoil pad
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/categor...platesrec-pads
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...cers/index.htm
11-16-2019, 02:55 PM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
also keep in mind that adding spacers will change where your cheek sits on the stock, some times it makes you sit HIGHER or lower, sop keep this in mind as you adjust length of pull!
and just so you know, the 10/22, is maybe one of the guns with the MOST aftermarket parts and stocks and such for it, so aftermarket stocks of correct length of pull can be had too, if you wanted!
https://www.gunmann.com/ruger-1022-stocks/
and just so you know, the 10/22, is maybe one of the guns with the MOST aftermarket parts and stocks and such for it, so aftermarket stocks of correct length of pull can be had too, if you wanted!
https://www.gunmann.com/ruger-1022-stocks/
11-24-2020, 08:43 AM
#18
Spike
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 10
I have aged out to the point where I'm 66, and have been coping with an arthritic spur in my cervical spine since just before turning 40. It has complicated pretty much my entire shooting history, and I haven't shot a genuine prone match in a year or two, mostly because it's becoming more discomfort than I think it's worth.
Our local shooting club has acknowledged that us elder duffers have this issue and permits me and my fellows the option of shooting the same COF from a bench and being scored in our own division. It's a logical and reasonable accommodation to ""The Greying of America"", IMHO.
Until I threw in the towel and made the transition, I developed a number of low-impact exercises to combat the general (and also specific to my cardiac condition) debilitation that eventually embraces us all when we get past our prime. Laugh if your want, but they are done in bed; I (still) do mine when I awaken, before I actually get up.
For this neck issue, I lie on my back and arch the back so my body is off the bed completely except for the heels and back of the head. I move very slowly, and make an effort to control my breathing so it progresses normally. Once the back is arched, I will hold it until the muscles begin to complain (quiver), then very slowly lower back down and completely relax, staying down until my breathing returns completely to normal. Five or so reps, over ten to fifteen minutes, complete a set.
I then do a set of the opposite, raising head and heels so that only the butt is in contact with the mattress. I take the same slow time, and hold until the quiver, slowly restoring to a relaxed position and regaining my normal breath; five or so reps, depending on my determination that day.
These simple steps restore some strength and muscle tone to the body's core, help somewhat to control neck and back pain, and start the day off with a half hour of genuine age and disability appropriate conditioning.
__________________________________________
kratom mate
Our local shooting club has acknowledged that us elder duffers have this issue and permits me and my fellows the option of shooting the same COF from a bench and being scored in our own division. It's a logical and reasonable accommodation to ""The Greying of America"", IMHO.
Until I threw in the towel and made the transition, I developed a number of low-impact exercises to combat the general (and also specific to my cardiac condition) debilitation that eventually embraces us all when we get past our prime. Laugh if your want, but they are done in bed; I (still) do mine when I awaken, before I actually get up.
For this neck issue, I lie on my back and arch the back so my body is off the bed completely except for the heels and back of the head. I move very slowly, and make an effort to control my breathing so it progresses normally. Once the back is arched, I will hold it until the muscles begin to complain (quiver), then very slowly lower back down and completely relax, staying down until my breathing returns completely to normal. Five or so reps, over ten to fifteen minutes, complete a set.
I then do a set of the opposite, raising head and heels so that only the butt is in contact with the mattress. I take the same slow time, and hold until the quiver, slowly restoring to a relaxed position and regaining my normal breath; five or so reps, depending on my determination that day.
These simple steps restore some strength and muscle tone to the body's core, help somewhat to control neck and back pain, and start the day off with a half hour of genuine age and disability appropriate conditioning.
__________________________________________
kratom mate
Last edited by GraceNetry; 11-27-2020 at 04:51 AM.
