Muzzleloaders?
 

I'm half afraid to start this one, but hey i'd like to know. What's everyone's opinion on the following. There have always been a group of shooters who enjoy primitive hunting, and while I don't necessarily agree that a blackpowder hunter is at a disadvantage and needs a special season to aid in that disadvantage, it's there nonetheless. My question is this... With all the muzzleloader advances, just how primitive a weapon is it? I seriously doubt that someone who owns, say a Thompson Center Omega, with a nice scope , is at any disadvantage, other than a somewhat limited range, and that's questionable. The new blackpowders are really fine, modern weapons. should they get a special season or should it be limited to non-bolt action, iron sighted weapons?

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

I can't say I have killed any more deer since I changed over to my knights. So little difference, I am switching back to my TC Hawken next year. Instead of thinking about the culture of the argument or the "inner meaning", it really should be decided based on the needs and wants of the people. The early seasons I see in alot of states, is starting to get crowded with inlines and sidelocks alike. State I hunt most in, MD, needs to thin out the deer herd, bottom line. So the early season helps that. Sure us Bowhunters don't like it. So let both hunt.

But states where thinning is not needed, DNR still needs to make it challenging. Like parts of WV for instance. Keep it primative.

I guess what I am saying, I could care less what people shoot, just open the seasons enough so we are maintaining a healthy herd of deer and there will be for my children one day. I like the difference seasons myself.

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

BC,
don't get me wrong, I like the difference too. What I was saying was that when the special seasons started, the rifles were primitive but these days they're about on a par with a smokeless powder rig. I hunt muzzleloader season, but i use the old fashioned "smokepole" I guess I'm just old fashioned.:D

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

Well, I don't mind what they change it too, because I have the firearms to hunt with either. But I have to remind myself that these public woods belongs to all of us.

All I want for the DNR is to maintain a healthy number of deer/game so that we all can hunt for a long time to come. They have several tools in thier chest for this. From different seasons, to different weapons used.

When they introduced Crossbows to MD hunters, almost 90% bowhunters said no way unless you are disabled. But lets be honest, here, the reason I said no to crossbows is I liked the woods to myself. It was a selfish reason and bow season is relatively uncrowded. But you let crossbows out, then all the sudden every guy from the city goes out and buys one and expects to kill deer without putting in the hours and hours of tuning and practice from a compound or recurve. All the sudden the deer are pressured, and the fun of bow season is like gunseason now.

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

Other than the source of ignition and the addition of a scope what is the real difference between modern inlines and the old relics? I prefer someone out there using a modern gun that he can cleanly harvest deer with over someone who can't seem to hit the proverbial broad side of the barn with a flintlock. I for one could never shoot a flintlock as accurately as my inline so therefore I may never have hunted muzzleloader season if it were not for the ease of use of an inline. If using inlines could "spark" the interest of someone to go out and hunt an extra season I say great, we need all the supporters we can get! I would much rather see someone outdoors rather than sitting at home fealing left out. Don't condem me for saying I couldn't shoot a flintlock, I just never had the opportunity to practice all that is required at becoming proficient with one.[X(]

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

With the advent of changes in a lot of muzzleloaders,they are better than the original ones.They do have advantagessuch as in-llines,scopes,modern powders as the (savage). MANY states because of these advantages have outlawed nothing but the old style muzzies. One with nipples,caps,and loose powder no pellets as well. open sights only. Check with your state or the state your going to hunt. As far as the other special seasons given to muzzles is in direct attitude with the reason that one is at a disadvantage in hunting because it takes longer to reload between shots.Thats why. Advantage is the seasons they give is during the rut,or when its better wether conditiions,llike later on in the seasons to hunt deer. So there is pros and cons about it! Pay your money and take your chances,with one you like. Some states let you get deer with a ml and a regular rifle and bows as well.Like three different seasons and tags for all.States are different. vangunsmith

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

I ain't going to lie the inline scoped is an advantage to an iron site trad. The technology now is miles ahead and allowing us to do what we thought may not be possible but really take a look at hunting as whole. Bullets/Rifles/Bows/Arrows/Broadheads/ATV's/Treestands/GPS/FRS/GMRS...the list is huge but basically does anything ressemble what it once did with regards to what we have available to hunt biggame with? I think the whole face has changed and while with any change you get some bad more good has resulted. For example more hunters taking up different angles of the sport, extended seasons, more time spent on the sport, more money coming back to the sport, etc. Some may argue a more effecient hunter with aid of technological advances in todays hunting world, while some maybe true I do think the advances can also create an air of false positive in terms of ability, etc. However for the most part the hunt itself is unchanged, it is still man/woman in nature, self challenge, test/accomplishment, always learning, commodarie, peace and so forth. It really is no different than anything evolution is part of life, your transition between the swings and pretty soon it all becomes to familar..but the core is still the same. You work b/c you need money you are now paid more than many made in a decade or more but yet still have the same hardships...I big ball that just keeps turning! Has anything really changed??

As to why I use my scoped/inline b/c I can legally and if they changed it I would just go back to my ironed trad and continue on with a longer season doing what I love to do. Do I see it ever happening, doubtful but like BC said I think a direct result is the game management and population of the game...which we are a direct result to so we should also be part of the solution. I relish in the fact we need to be a part of maintaining healthy game herds so futures will be able to enjoy all of natures beauty. All in all, I have more opportunity and am up to that task to take as much advantages as given/able. BTW the inline has not filled my freezer anymore than before it just allows me more choice and that is the bottomline.

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

lets be honest, the old style muzzleloaders were (trying to think of a politically correct word) ok BAD! There I said it. Back before inlines came out, when my father and I would hunt muzzleloader season, I would carry my bow, I hated lugging that seriously unbalanced ugly octagon barreled Thompson Renegade out in the woods. But when inlines came out and I shot my friends Ruger M77, the feel of it and the accuracy told me I had to have one. I would rather have 75% (rough estimate no data to support) of the hunters out there using inlines if they want to, and giving them the advantage to cleanly harvesting a deer, than to have everybody carrying hunks of steel that they cant hit the broad side of a barn with. Also, I cant tell you how many guys I knew would just carry
12 ga's in stead of M/L's because they sucked with them. And besides inline or sidelock....they're all still single shots. Thats the real key here, make that one shot count with whatever you are carrying!!!

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

Goodness Mossy, I have heard you say some crazy stuff before, but as a bud and friend, this tops it all.

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

why? just because I absolutly HATE those old muzzleloaders? Its just my personal opinion, if MD goes back to traditional smokeploes, I will use my bow.....besides I kill more deer with a bow than I do with M/L and rifle combined. I guess the next topic will be compound vs. recurves......dont hear too many guys saying we should go back to only using recurves! and I guess if compunds get banned I will try my luck with a slingshot:D

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

The bottom line is that there are more deer now than when Christopher Columbus landed on the western hemisphere. So whats the beef? I believe this topic is alive ONLY because of the political desires and "powertrips" of the buckskinners in our sport who are politically involved enough to have a voice in some states. Whats next, bow and muzzleloader season in the spring for turkey?

The more deer we kill, the more they breed. Hunter rates have been edging downward for 15 years as herds have increased despite our "harvest per man effectiveness" having gone up. That tells me that regardless of WHAT weapons we use, there really wont be any serious damage done too our herds (inside of safe and sound biologically principled management and harvest guidelines of course. I'm not talking about throwing all caution too the wind and cutting em all down with reckless abandon). Its plain and simple GREED by the buckskinners that is driving this debate. They want the seasons and some falsely percieved glory from some imagined "audience" so they feel threatened by modern equipment. On that note lets not forget that a percussion cap weapon is NOT the first generation nor the oldest of muzzleloading weapons. What about the manually lit smoothbore weapons of several hundred years ago? A 150 year old percussion Kentucky longrifle would make them look practically archaic. But I don't see the guys willing to give up their #11s for such fare! ;)

25-30 years ago the same debate ran among the traditionalist archers regarding the then new, mass produced compound bows. Yet we see that even the BADDEST cam bow of today with its potentially double range over most stickbows did absolutely NOTHING to harm the deer populations. What a hunter uses or doesn't use (within sane and moral guidelines of course, I'm not suggesting C4 or landmines for hunters) should be up too them by broadly setout guidelines. Bow season should be that, BOWS! Muzzleloader season should be just that, front stuffers. And firearms seasons should be anything legally owned as defined by our current system of laws concerning firearms ownership in this country.

Personally I think we should ALL put aside our differences and concentrate on defeating the MANY groups that seek to stop us ALL and know that our most vulnerable state will be that of a divided group! [:'(]
RA

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

Not really. Modern inlines just bring the sport to the world of fast or highly processed food. In the old days people actually had to cook their food. Nowadays one can go to the grocery store and buy a complete meal in a box, go home stick it in the microwave for 3 minutes and have a meal to eat. Same deal with modern inlines, you buy a kit, insert tab A into slot B, and 5 minutes later you are shooting. Just like home cooked versus instant food, the old way tastes better but takes more skill and time to prepare.

Another analogy is two people stnding on top of a mountain. person number 1 climbed hte mountain while person number 2 was dropped there from a helicoptor. Both can enjoy the view, but the man who climbed actually accomplished something nd probably enjoys the accomplishment more. The end of the journey isn't always the most important, but how you get there.

I don't care which route people take, but to say that an old flintlock that can be fired using a knapped piece of stone, a ball cast by the shooter, and even possibly homemade gunpowder, is somehow inferior to a modern inline that can pretty much only fire stuff that has to be made by someone else, is quite off.

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

Mossy and a bad one at that. So you actually believe you can harvest more deer since you got a inline? And considering 90% of deer killed here in MD I bet are shot under 60 yards.

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

First off, how can you say my opinion is bad? I hate old M/L's I love inlines.....I would say more people agree with me than you. If they loved the old octagon Hawken's style muzzleloaders so much, we wouldnt be having this conversation, and inlines would have faded out of existance. If I were to hunt a spot where my only shots were say 10-25 yrds like you do, I would bow-only hunt them, but where I hunt a 60-90 yards shot is a common place and my Ruger M77 inline with a 2-10 Aetec will shoot 1.5" groups at that distance. So to me the old style M/L have no use......if you wanna hunt with one, thats your choice. I was just explaining my opinion.

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

Your right. I don't know what to say. How can someone hate a nice sidelock TC hawken is beyond me. But Mossy, even though you don't have any class when it comes to ML, I still will hang out with you.

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

We are limited to iron sights with our ML season. That tends to be a bigger issue than the ML itself, with my inline anyway. I harvested one with a ML last year at 140 paces. So the range is there with an inline, but bearing down with iron sights can be challenging as the yardage increases.

I hope they keep the separate season. It's really nice as of a couple of years ago when it allowed us to hunt both Rifle and ML season on the same license and tag. Now we can deer hunt for basically 6 weeks.

The late season ML is a significantly different hunt as well. During rifle season, we are usually pretty close to the rut. By muzzleloader season, the deer location and habits are completely different because of rifle season, fewer hunters, and the timing with the first rut.

Access to private land improves, public land is usually void of hunters. It can be cold though!

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

I believe what Mossy is trying to say is that he prefers the performance of an inline over an old sidelock.....and it is hard to argue against that point. And I also believe he feals the same as I do that we would both love to have an old sidelock in our gun cabinet, if not for anything else but a conversation piece. ;)

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

But I thought you fellers said you only shot 95gr of pyrodex?

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

Wow, I must really be lucking out with the old Hawken. I've had it since 1981 and I didn't realize it was so inadequate until I read this thread. It has never had any problem hitting a deer where it is supposed to, and I have worked up many different loads for many different applications including a light round ball load for when I get the urge to go after the squirrels that infest our deer woods.

The one thing I have never tried to shoot though is a barn. I'll give it a try, and get back to ya'll.

C. Davis

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

I prefer underhammers, because they ignite as well as in lines, and look old. H & A first produced them in 1835, so that'll hold off most buckskinners. :D

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

There are two "disadvantges" attendant to hunting with any muzzleloader, and they apply equally to all of them regardless of ignition type. One is slowness of a followup shot, if needed; the other is limited range (200 yards or less). I am so convinced that neither of these limitations is particularly serious, that I often hunt with a ML in regular season.

Properly maintained and loaded, even a sidelock suffers little. In wet weather you put a piece of plastic wrap over the muzzle and lock area, and even a flintlock is reliable. You CAN mount scopes on sidelocks, BTW, and some are every bit as accurate as any inline! Here's couple of Maxiball groups shot at 100 yards with a .45 and .50-caliber sidelock respectively, both scoped. Repeat shots can often be made FASTER with a sidelock, because capping them is easier than some of the bolt-action type inlines that have to have a 209 primer inserted into a hole in the breechplug inside the receiver opening.

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

I can understand why you would hate a poorly-designed, big old out-of-balance, heavy hunk of iron and would prefer a properly balanced, easy-to-aim rifle with a scope vs a set of iron sights that you can't even see! But the TC Renegade doesn't even compare to a well-executed lightweight custom Hawken stylke or Pennslyvania longrifle with a slim, swamped barrel and accurate, adjustable sights. And for people who can't see well, a scope can be well-mounted on any style of ML rifle for use where legal. The amin advantage I see with the in-line, of which I now own two, is ease of cleaning from the breech facilitated by the removeable breechplug. And that's all!




Just look at the previous post, if you don't think this rifle will shoot. The MV of that 370-grain Maxiball load was 1740 FPS, for a M.E. of 2488 foot-pounds!

RE: Muzzleloaders?
 

In our state inlines are legal but not scopes. The law states no optic sights. You can use a scoped Muzzle loader during rifle season but not during muzzle loading season. Our season is in December after the rifle season. I have one cap lock and one In-line. Any rifle that loads from the muzzle is a muzzle loader I can't see why there should even be a question.