Hunting gun groups...
 

I know folks throw the sub-moa thing around a lot. But what i wonder is how many folks actually have guns that they actually hunt with that will shoot a 5 shot group at a 100yds into sub-moa groups especially with factory ammo. I tend to think these guns are far more rare than folks let on. What say you guys? I have a couple that will come very close but several more that really arent that close to it. Thanks in advance..this should make an interesting discussion.

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

Sub MOA groups have really increased since the internet has been around that is for sure. I own one that will shoot that well with factory ammo 300 wsm vanguard. My 7 rem mag may shoot 3 under an inch depending on condition of the shooter that day. Hopefully the new number 3 will do better with handloads. I would say the average is 1 1/2 which is plenty good for everything except long range groundhogs or prairie dogs.

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

Don't know about factory ammo 'cause I haven't used any in quite a while in my hunting rifles. But with handloads I've got a couple of Sakos that easily qualify.

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

Ain't that the truth! All three of my current big game rifles will occasionaly do
sub-moa, if my wiggles compensate for my wobbles, etc. However, a once in a while sub-moa group does not a sub-moa rifle make. On average I'd say my groups go about
1-1/4" to 1-1/2" for 4 or 5 shot groups, with factory ammo as I no longer handload. I'd say that's dang good accuracy for out of the box rifles. Folks should be happy if their rifle, out of the box, gives them 1-1/2" (+/-) groups for 5shots.
What's better, take a target and shoot a group one day, save the target, then shoot a group a week or two later with the original target set behind the new one. Keep doing this for a month or two, every couple weeks. If your rifle keeps them in a group of
2" or less on the orig. target over time, you've got a gem - hang onto it! That sort of accuracy & consistency is rare. I'm lucky in that I've found one to do it, and shoots several different factory loads to the same POI.
I think the majority of sub-moa claims are done with rifles that have been modified some. Maybe some bedding work, triggers lightened, barrels re-crowned, use of handloaded ammo, etc. I've only had one that consistently shot sub-moa out of the box, and it gave me approx. 1/2" to 3/4" groups with factory ammo it liked. The rifle was a Rem. 788 with 18-1/2" barrel, Tasco 3-9x scope, 243Win., using Fed. Premium 85gr.HPBT. Like a nut, I eventually coveted something else, and traded it off - at the time, much to the delight of the local prairie dog population, I'm sure:D

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

I think we are enamoured with groups way too much. We group off a bench but how well do they shoot under field conditions? I practice off-hand and sitting with and without shooting sticks. I rarely group my ammo. I am more concerned with practice which prepares me for field shooting than the groups off a bench I can get. I don't have any in my wallet that have been laminated to show off. I don't hunt prarie dogs enough to worry about. 1" groups will handle coyotes and 1.5"-2", even though we don't want to admit it, will handle big game at the ranges most shoot. The small groups are necessary if one is going to hunt at extreme ranges. This is very specialized and I wouldn't enjoy it. I like sneaking.

Dr Fatguy

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

I think for a stock factory rifle in a hunting class model 5 shot MOA groups are few and far between. There are alot of rifles that will shoot 3 shot MOA groups but 5 is a different story. I handload for all of my guns which in hunting weight rifles not varmint rigs consist of a 280, 25-06, & 257 Roberts. The 280 has been rebarreled with a cheap Douglas but it will group 120 & 140 gr. Bt's under 3/4" for 5 shots. The other two are factory stock except for lightening the triggers. Both will group under and inch with 115 gr BT's for 3 shots, but going to 5 opens the groups to over an inch. All the rifles are fed handloads and not factory so I don't know what they will do with even premium factory stuff.

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

A note I forgot to add was that if you buy a factory hunting weight rifle that will group under an 1.5" for 5 shots with factory ammo buy all the ammo with that same lot # that you can afford and sleep with the rifle at night. Cuddling and kissing it occassionally. Those kind of rifles are probably 1 in 1000 or more.

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

my old 700bdl (wood, all factory) will throw bullets right at an inch all day long with an occasional flyer on a calm day.....but its a 22-250

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

Oh, absolutely, submoa shooters are hard to find with factory ammo. But this is a "guns" page, and not a hunting page, so talking about it and striving for it is ok in my book. Now for hunting, I got a sluggun that is a 2.5MOA shooter, a 7400 that is a 1.7MOA shooter, and a medallion that is a 1.2MOA shooter. These are the guns I used the most. But this is a hunting issue, not a guns issue. For going to the range, I got a 300RUM that is a true .75MOA shooter, and a sako 75 that is a .9MOA shooter.

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

I agree with you SP. My A-Bolt composite stalker in 25-06 has a 22" barrel, so it's certainly qualifies as a hunting rifle. With 100 gr. Nosler ballistic tips and Hodgedon 450 ball powder I can often keep 3 under an inch at 100 yds. But keeping all 5 in is tough. I think it's because if I get the first 3, my heart rate goes up in anticipation.

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

A couple of things:

1. For "Hunting gun groups", I'd say if you can keep all your shots on a paper plate at 150 yards, you'll be in great shape 95% of the time.

2. I also agree with Big Country in that for most of us here (guys a little more serious than the average gun fella), we like to do what we can to shoot those tiny little groups off the bench.

Shooting and hunting are two different animals in my opinion.

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

You guys are confirming what I suspected. I seem to be on my way to a gem with the 3 shot groups all the time..but theres almost always one oddball that kills the group when ya shoot 5. My guns are all factory stock except lightened triggers. Im not gonna say what my offhanded groups are..but they are getting better..lol. I have always been a believer if a gun will group 2 inches or under with factory stuff that it was a keeper. Im still laughing over the comment oldelk made bout the internet tightening up groups..thats for sure!! :D Quite possibly the best accurizing tool ever invented for guns! :D

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

Glad you enjoyed that:D

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

Some of those hyper accurate sub MOA guns aren't much good on a deer hunt. They tend to have massive scopes, heavy barrels, and a stock made for bench rest shooting only. The ammo used is normally a very light weight bullet that doesn't penetrate anything tougher than a sheet of paper before mushroming up and fragmenting into a bloody mess. But hey if you want to drag a portable bench rest and only shoot at known ranges go ahead. I'll be still hunt in the woods where the big one hide. You need a light fast handling gun for that.

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

I've been trying for years to get my old Browning A-bolt to shoot MOA but it never would so I sold it and bought a Tikka. Best thing I've done to date. Since they guarentee MOA as long as I can hold steady I can get good groups. Since I've been after this goal for a while (I'm a hunter, not a shooter, but I'm getting better at both) I handload so these results are better than you might get with factory stuff. The gun is totally stock, not even glass bedded (yet!), I did lower the trigger to around 2.5 lbs. but the rifle came with instructions on how to do that (1/2 turn on an allen bolt on trigger).

Most times I shoot around 1"- 1.5" groups if I have a good rest and all goes right. I do need to shoot more in field positions and other methods. One fun thing I like to do is shoot gallon milk jugs full of water at 100 yards off-hand standing, no leaning against/over anything. It's much tougher than most people realize and if you can do that most of the time I'd say you're doing very well. I figure that size is similar to the vital area of a deer.

Anyway, just uploaded a couple pictures to my server of my new Accubond handloads from last fall. They shoot so well, I doubt I'll be switching for some time. I try to shoot only 5 shot groups now for consistancy as 3 shots aren't always as telling. Enjoy and good discussion!

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

I strive to get all of my hunting guns to do sub MOA for 3 shots, and have a few that will do better with 5. I have an encore 22-250 that will do sub 3/4 MOA for 5 shots with Rem UMC 45gr HP ammo, which is really nice for $9 a box. My Bushy will shoot 52gr MHP black hills ammo into sub MOA 5 shot groups, a Tikka T3 in 338 win mag that will do sub Moa with reloaded 225gr TSX, and a Browning Eurobolt w/boss that will do sub Moa 5 shot groups with federal premium 100 gr SBT. I don't shoot a lot of factory loads in anything bigger than 22-250, 223 and 22-250 are so cheap I don't often bother reloading for them. I've gone thru a lot of guns and a lot of tinkering to get the ones I have now, but they are out there. One thing I find is that a lot of people don't but good enough glass on thier rifles, you can't expect great accuracy with mediocre optics. Most times really accurate rifles are more expensive and usually need a little tinkering to get the best out of them. For practicle accuracy anthing that will go 1.5-2" at 100 yards will do fine for a hunting gun. My dads one hunting buddy had a Remington 7400 in 30/06 that was lucky to put 5 shots into 5-6" at 100 yards but he killed enough deer and other big game with it to fill a dump truck.

Tikka T3 338


Encore 22-250


Bushmaster

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

I own a rifle that will shoot sub MOA on a very consistent basis, an older Sako. It is much more consistent than I am. Like others have stated, once sighted in, it comes off the bench and I practice field shooting.

Someone mentioned that more sub-MOA groups are shot on the internet than anywhere else. Funny but sadly true.

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

I never shoot five shot groups with my deer rifles. I have never shot at the same deer three times and can see no reason to require my rifle or myself to put five shots in a tiny group. A good test for hunting accuracy for my big game rifles is to take them out several times, get set up good and steady and fire two or three shots. If they all come within an inch and a half of my point of aim at the range I am shooting, then that rifle will perform in the field. I am pretty happy with a rifle that will always or almost always shoot a group of two inches where none miss the point of aim by more than 1 1/2 inches. I had a 788 Remington in 308 once that would almost never shoot better than a 3 inch group. However it never missed the center of the target by more than that 1 1/2 inches. I never missed a deer with that rifle and I shot a lot of them with it. My rifles as a rule, group better than I am capable of holding them.

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

Groups? I don't shoot groups too often.
I tape dimes up to a target backer at 300 yards and pop them off with my 7mm STW. If the rifle fails to shot that well I'll rebarrel it to get back to optimum accuracy for the setup. Only the best will do for my highly trained trigger finger.

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

"I never shoot five shot groups with my deer rifles. I have never shot at the same deer three times and can see no reason to require my rifle or myself to put five shots in a tiny group." James B

I agree. I've never taken 3 successive shots at anything except paper.
I've hunted many years. I have taken a second shot at a deer once. I have taken a third shot at a deer once.
The deer I shot at twice was my very first deer, a fat little doe.....I thought I missed her on the first shot but upon recovery I knew the first shot did the trick. Second shot (on the then running deer) missed.
The only other deer that I shot at more than one time was a little buck. I had made a bad first shot on his leg (operator error), took an ill'advised second snap shot (missed) when I jumped it on the track, and then placed the third, coup-de grace, when I caught up to do the right thing.
Our hunting rifles need to shoot a consistently predictable first shot, and a follow-up second shot that doesn't string or walk. A third would be nice.
Five is asking for a bench rest rifle. I have nothing against bench rest rifles. I have one hunting rifle that could probably become one with some time and money spent. Just not really necessary for my hunting needs though.

"My rifles as a rule, group better than I am capable of holding them." James B

James and I must own the very same guns:D

RE: Hunting gun groups...
 

I have shot an animal more than 3 times. My last elk needed 4 - 160g Partitions to get him to fall over dead. My theory is keep shooting them until they fall over. Heart/Lung shots don't waste any meat. Since my last elk was shot over 300 yards away (no chance to get closer) I require my rifle shoot as close to MOA as possible. Since there have been times when it was needed to shoot an animal more than 3 times I like to have the confidence in my guns ability. When you factor in that MOA at 300 yards is 3" and factor in hunter error, wind, and excitement of the moment, 3" can easily double. I respect my game very much and wouldn't have been comfortable shooting that animal with a 2 MOA rifle. Nothing worse than a wounded animal that has to suffer unduly, or worse, get away. Since long shots are a possibility out west where I hunt I need an accurate rifle. For hunters in timber or other denser areas a 1.5" or 2" rifle at 100 yards would be just fine assuming shots won't exceed 200 yards.