slugs or buckshot?
 

i have a 12 gauge semi-automatic shotgun without a rifled barrel. How bad will the 1 1/2 ounce shot comapre in terms of recoil to the 1 1/4 or the 1 1/8 ounce shot? should i use a slug or buckshot for deer. The maximum range will probally be 100 yards. what kind of scope should i get for it. I don't know if i want a red dot or not. i'm only 15 and don't want to spend a lot of money on another gun so i'm trying to get buy with what i have.

thanks for your replies

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

First off run slugs!!!! You will probably find the Brenieke slugs will give you the best accuracy. As for buck shot you should limit your shots to 35 yards or less even with a tight shooting gun. If you do not then you will have lots of wounded deer!

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

use slugs...since your shotgun is smoothbore, then try all of the standard slugs (FOSTER) from Remington, Winchester, and Federal, also try the Brennekes

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

SLUGS !!!
IMO buck shot is good for 25-35 yds MAX Farther away deer are lost to much
I would recomend Brenneke K.O. slugs .
Not only do they shoot great out of most smooth bore guns but they are cheap $ 1.79 a box at Gander Mountian this fall
I would buy a red dot .
I have found I can pick up moving deer better with it and it is better in low light
PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE !!!!

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Slugs!!!! Try what everyone has already said, every type of foster slug and some of the hybrids.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

ok i guess i'm going with slugs. can anyone tell me how bad the recoil is on one of them? i was looking at some shoulder recoil pads online. are thoes good. i had never heard of them before.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Buckshot, when used with the correct choke, will give you about 75 yds range. As long as you can keep two pellets on on 11" paper plate, you are good to go. Since you don't have a rifled barrel, you will only get about 75 yds out of a slug. I am a slug fan, but buckshot has more knockdown power if you can get multiple pellets to land on target.

good luck!

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

In the past I found my slug cartridges shot lower weight projectiles, thus I found recoil was less in my shotguns. I have no qualms about 00 buckshot used in range limitations, and where it is legal and if you have a cylinder or improved cylinder bore to shoot it out of.
Good hunting.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Use Slugs, just this week alone where i hunt the cops had to finish off a deer because buckshot did not do the job and it ran into a park.
Ths78 what kind of gun are you shooting to get 75 yards out of buckshot i have never heard of that.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

If you want 75 yards out of buck shot you need to check out buckstix.com what they have will reach out to 250 yards!!!! Other then that I do not care what choke you have buck is a 35 yard at best deal. Thank you for the rest of you knowing how to spell Brennekes, I blew it there, it must be the Maine axcent?

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

First of all, Buckshot does NOT have more "knockdown power" than a slug - unless the quantity of pellets that actually strike the target approx. equals the mass of a slug. A 1 oz. slug weighs 437.5 grain. 00 buck pellets weigh approx. 50 grains each. So, it can easily be seen that it would require 9 pellets - striking the target - to roughly equal the impact energy of a single 1 oz. slug. This, of course, assumes that the slug and the buckshot are fired at the same velocity. In fact, many slug loads have muzzle velocities HIGHER than (most) buckshot loads. A standard 00 buck, 2.75" shell has about 9 pellets total - so ALL of them must strike the target in this example. This will NOT happen, except at point blank range, perhaps. There is an argument, advanced by some, that buckshot has more impact energy because it does not tend to penetrate as deeply (or exit the animal).... therefore it must lmpart more energy than a slug - which, in some cases, passes through. This is mathematically impossible, for the same reasons as above. If the buckshot load (which actually strikes the target) does not possess as much energy in flight as the slug - then there is NO way that it can impart more energy than the slug when it strikes the target.
Second, as to range..... Foster slugs, through a smoothbore barrel, are generally (reasonably) accurate to about 70 - 75 yds. Much past that distance, the Foster slug has lost so much velocity that it becomes somewhat unstable in flight. Further, Foster slugs retain insufficient energy to insure a clean kill (as a general rule, about 900 ft-lbs minimum), beyond about 100 yds.
The numbers for buckshot are even worse. Even considered collectively, the pellets in a buckshot load lose velocity and energy even faster than a slug. Even under the best conditions, it is seldom possible to get good patterns of buckshot much beyond 45 yds. Beyond 50 yds, buckshot tends to be so inaccurate that, most often, no more than 1/3 of the pellets will strike a 10" dia. target. So, it is hardly likely that buckshot will deliver enough energy and penetration at 75 - 100 yds to be able to do more than wound a deer.
There ARE exceptions to this - some guns will pattern buckshot better than others (just as some guns will shoot slugs better than others). It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY, as I have just explained, though, that buckshot could be as effective as a slug - much beyond 40 yds. So, from 0 to about 40 yds, use whichever you prefer - buckshot or slugs (slugs DO have an advantage, though). Beyond about 40 yds, slugs have a HUGE advantage. The numbers do not lie. The choice is yours.
I am sure that someone on this board, when they read this, will SWEAR that they routinely kill deer at 350 yds,or some such ridiculous range, with a smoothbore gun with Foster slugs.... (or buckshot, for that matter). All I can say is what I've said - the numbers (meaning the rules of PHYSICS) don't lie.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

ok. i think i will do with a slug to do my deer hunting. MY shotgun is a semi-suto charles daly. all i have on it is a bead site. i want to get a red dot site for about 50$. do i need to get a mount for my red dot site? if so can anyone give me a link so i can see what i need.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Lifehog,
I use a rem 870 with an improved cyl. choke, and winchester 3" super x 00buck (33 cal pellet), or a Browning auto 5 with same choke and load.

I like to use this setup when hunting with dogs or on drives.

This load has 15 pellets, and it'll keep 2 on an 11" pie plate at 75 yds.

I really don't like shooting deer inside of 30 yds or so with it b/c it seems that the vast majority of the pellets strike at this area, leaving me a huge mess.

Give this a try sometime, and hopefully you'll get the same results. Good luck hunting!

And to address the "knockdown" questions: It is impossible to convince people who only look at numbers (physics) the effectiveness of buckshot. Yes a slug has more energy, but so what. It is only making one whole. In order to steer this conversation in the direction I was aiming for, I must say that buckshot, in general, does much more damage b/c it creates multiple wound channels. (Also, for eveyone who wonders, I did earn an A in 2 physics courses at NCSU. I understand the numbers arguments 100%.)

And DAMAGE is what kills, NOT ENERGY. Energy is a component of damage, but so are many, many other factors such as shot placement, wound channel diameter, velocity, sectional density, and bullet construction.

Saying that 900 lbs is the minimum for cleanly killing deer is absurd. A 357 magnum has about 500-600 ft lbs of energy at the barrel. According to the "900 lb" argument, hunters could not hold a 357 to a deers side and clealy/ethically kill them. A 357 will kill any deer on the planet under these circumstances...so will a 45acp for that matter and it only has about 300-350 lbs of energy. Oh, and an arrow won't have 900 lbs of energy either.

So, in lieu of all this, as long as you can get multiple pellets on target, whether it be 5 yards or 75 yards, buckshot is very effective.

Example: I shot a 140 lb doe running down the street at about 15 yards one morning. We were running dogs, and yes we had the road registered with the state, so it was safe and legal. The doe was on the near-side of this 2 lane road, and upon impact, the buckshot picked her up off her feet, and threw her in a head over tail flip all the way accross the road (about 20 feet). Now thats knockdown.

I've killed several deer slugs, and none made the deer do that.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

"Damage" is created by imparting impact energy to the target. The less impact energy - the less damage (unless one is using explosive projectiles). "DAMAGE" is a component of "ENERGY", not the other way around. It's as simple as that. Yes, people do kill deer with .357 magnums, with well less than 900 ft-lbs..... and they are simply lucky. For one thing, they don't often do this beyond 50 yds. It is theoretically possible to kill a deer with a .22 LR - (and it has been done) - but that doesn't make it an ideal projectile for the purpose, does it ? 900 ft-lbs is a generally accepted number - if you don't believe it (which you obviously do not), then check other sources - they will agree. It is a GENERAL number, to ENSURE a clean kill - not the theoretical minimum. The point of it is, as I believe I stated before, if one chooses to use a load with much less than 900 ft-lbs at point of impact - one is RISKING only wounding the animal (rather than a clean kill). Does your pride really cause you to want to take this risk - with so little margin for error ? Mine doesn't - I prefer to be safely within a margin for error. As a result, I have never lost an animal, in 23 years.
Your example of the "140 lb. doe @ 15 yds" is not even pertinent to the argument. My argument (in my previous post) was that buckshot is markedly inferior BEYOND about 40 yds. This fact stands. The fact that you can only get 2 pellets of 00 buck into the target at 75 yds (approx. 100 grain) vs. 438 grain (a 1 oz. slug) PROVES my point. You say that you understand the physics 100%. Well, do you understand that 2 pellets, totaling about 100 grain, CANNOT exceed the energy of a 438 grain slug (unless, of course, they were traveling at a much greater velocity than the slug - which is never the case) ? I suppose we are all just to take this on faith, because you said so. Or, rather, we are to somehow believe that 2 pellets, .33 in. in dia., with LESS impact energy and little hope of creating an exit wound, will do more DAMAGE than 1 slug (with 4 times the mass). It just doesn't happen that way, sorry. You stated that there are lots of "other" factors involved - such as shot placement, wound channel diameter, velocity, sectional density and bullet construction. I fail to see how you can claim that buckshot (at ANY range) can be placed more accurately than a single projectile, a slug. Further, as to the other factors you mentioned - slugs win each of these comparisons, every time (with the possible exception of wound channel diameter - which will be greater with MANY pellets striking the target.... but then, in YOUR example, we only have TWO pellets doing this). So, how does that prove your point ?
By the way, ARROWS, which you mentioned, cause DAMAGE in a very different way than projectiles from firearms. They cause wounds by cutting into the flesh, not by impact penetration. An arrow needs only enough impact energy to cause the "broadhead" to cut into (penetrate) the target, as deeply as possible. They work only because of the sharp edges and point of the "broadhead". Without that, (such as a "field point" - used for target shooting), they would be almost useless on a deer-sized animal.
In conclusion, getting past the technical issues, the real intent of my argument, which I evidently did not make clear, was to help to prevent a NEW hunter from making mistakes - and losing animals, as a result. In my hunting "career", I have tried to be exceedingly careful to take the "numbers" into account - so as to NOT cruelly wound any animals - and lose them as a result. Do you not think this an important issue? Or, is the potential wastage of game animals not important to you ?
I am sure that you have great sucess in your hunting. I really have few doubts that you are a humane individual, as well. You need to understand that my purpose is NOT to somehow condemn those that choose to use buckshot (or the .357 magnum, for that matter). Nor did I desire to start an argument. My purpose is simply to point out some pertinent FACTS - so as to try to help someone new to the sport - and others, if they are not already aware of these things. I consider misinformation to be a very important issue, in general - it causes an enormous range of problems to our society - and makes lots of problems worse, needlessly. If I offended you, somehow... well, sorry. I won't, however, stand by and not do anything when I see people being misinformed.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

As i said earlier, some folks, such as "gorse", live in a numbers only world, and therefore cannot comprehend the entire picture.

I didn't misinform anyone, and I hope that you too have good results, whether you choose buckshot or slugs.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Oh, silly me. How could I possibly rely on the "numbers" - when we have those who see the "entire picture" - to lead us to salvation ? Thank you so much, sir, for giving us the "entire picture". I now feel so enlightened !

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Ths, you need to call NCSU and ask for money back for 6 credit hours if you think you can kill a deer with the same more damage at 75 yards with 00. The bead alone would cover up the whole front of the deer.

I used 00 for one trip and never again. It was when I first moved to a shotgun state, and was sika deer hunting on the eastern shore of MD. I hit a sika broadsided at 40 yards, and it kept trucking until I finally hit it again with a slugger on the second shot. Later while butchering, those 00 didn't penetrate well at all. Only a few made it to the lungs and none damaged the heart. The slug of course penetrated both lungs and clipped the top of the heart. After talking to several other butchers over there, they concurred that it was a poor choice past 35 yards. Thank goodness I had a slug for a second shot or I would have had to get the canoe out when that deer made it to the swamp. And past 30 yards, you are taking a heck of a chance of messing up the oh precious tendeloins.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

You are most certainly welcome gorse. I'll be glad to educate you anytime, free of charge. Here's some more info, that I'm sure you'll doubt, but is true: 41 & 44 magnum pistols both have less than 900 lbs of muzzle energy (with non +P loads), and rumor has it that they each have killed a deer or two.

Also, bigcountry, you forgot about the lab hours...it would be 8 hrs and not 6 hrs.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

I see both sides of the arguement and agree on the factrs..in my personal oipinion i use buckshot...3" copperplated 00...i went through 6 guns until i found 1 that aptterns very well...at 50 yards i had 9 pellets out of 15 hit in a 13" spread...that ios plenty of knockdown for a deer...however i will not argue past that...yes i have shot deer at 60-70 yards with buckshot running...are you always going to knock down a deer that far with it..no chances are you are not...sdo far i have not lost a deer with buckshot..(knock on wood)...i refuse to shoot a slug only because alot of deer i shoot are pushed from bordering properties are are flat out running after being shot at...most shot are under 50 yards and i think that most people will agree that you can pick up a deer with an open sight running much better than through a scope..i have not used a red dot so i cant speak for that...if your gun doesnt pttern well with buckshopt then there is no sense in using it...as for 25-35 yard maximum shot with buckshot..thats not true...if you take your time and pattern your gun it can be deadly out to 50 yards and mayeb a little furhter..but there is no way it will kill a deer at 100..jus wound it thats just my 2 cents i dont want to stir the pot jus sayin what i have experienced...

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Well, ths78, I highly doubt most people on here are going by the number games only. If you live in a sluggun state/county, where 00 are legal, most people are temped to try shooting a deer with them. I would say I have talked to 30 or more hunters since moving to MD that has tried them, and they all get burnt sooner or later, and go back to slugs. I haven't seen any of them including myself stick with them unless a specific type of hunting like jump hunting or driving. I have a feeling you are the one living by the numbers game. Talking about understanding damage of two .33" balls and all at 75 yards. I know at that distance, 00 would not go past one lung. And lucky if that happens. I am surprised all the ethics nazis on here ain't jumping up and down on this as they did .223 stuff.

I think it would benefit you to as you say be educated. And read 90% of the post here. And I mean that in a good way. And if you stick with the 00, I hope you are ethical enough to keep the shots under 35yards.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

NJ Deer instead of pop shooting deer, why not actual hunt the deer. Have some patience and wait for your shot instead of taking a chance? Just a opinion and its your deer and really ain't none of my business. Again, I am shocked the ethics nazi's ain't here screamin and hollering.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Man this debate is heated:D . I grew up hunting deer in NJ where Buckshot at the time was the only ammunition legal for deer. When they legalized slugs I used Brennekes and Federal and some Remington slug . I never lost a deer to buckshot as a matter of fact most if not all folded conveniently on the spot. I never shot at something past 40-50 yards because I hunted some dense woods. Using slugs deer usually made their little death run and died as well only one in fact dropped on the spot, the gun had greater range and it was scoped as well . I wish guys would stop inferring that buckshot does not perform well . If you take the time to pattern it and if the gun has the right choke it is extremely effective.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Hey oldelk, I believe ya. Sort of. I believe the deer you shot, did go down, but sure wouldn't say its the rule. I mean, what would you say if you tried it and it performed very poorly? You would report it as I and others have. Sure, I gave up on that very promply. Maybe didn't give it a chance. But your only one of a few that I know had it work worth a darn. And also, most 00 shooters I have seen, are jump shooters. Which I really don't respect as hunting. Nothing wrong with gettin gyour table fair. But I would rather hunt the deer. Usually I notice this type of hunting, you can really tear up a deer. Now I don't mind tearing up a shoulder. Thats for sure. But tearing up the precious backstrap is out of the question for me at least.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

BC actually guys that complain about bloodshot meat when using ballistic tips have never seen a deers chest cavity when hit with buckshot. Some were really gruesome. Yes and there were plenty of yahoos that shot deer at ridiculous ranges with their buckshot and there were probably lots of deer limping around after the season with one or 2 pellets in a non vital area. I can't condone that behavior but it seems that one runs across the same yahoo(s) mindset whether its buckshot,slug,rifle,pistol,black powder or archery equipment in their hands.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

man!! you guys dont know? deer now adays where bullet proof vest with steel plates on there sides. you all better leave them shotguns at home and go buy a super ultra magnums or those deer will just laugh at you as they runaway!

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Right, thats a real useful post.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

just trying to lighten the mood around here. what nobody likes jokes any more?[8D]

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Your right. :D

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Big country,

I am not arguing that slugs are stronger than buckshot...and i do not pop shoot all my deer...and now because i stated that i have shot deer running i am an unethical hunter...if i for once thought i was wounding deer and losing them due to a non lethal shot from buckshot i would switch in an instant...i was not argueing for or against anyone just stating that i use buckshot for the area i hunt and i likeitthe 2 deer that i shot over 60 with buckshot was due to the fact that i did not judge teh distance correctly...both deer by the way folded up on the spot...take it for what you want but i will not sit here and argue over this...the man asked slugs or buckshot and i replied with my opinion...you are entitled to your opinion and i will nit sit here and degrate you on the way you hunt...it took me hours to pattern my gun and im sure many people on this board have experienced the same...oldelkseems to know where i am coming from...i have nothing against you big country but by no means do i "not hunt for my deer"

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Oh no, I won't judge you for it. I am just shocked the ethics nazis on here didn't police ya. If you haven't noticed they are hard on people for alot less. Results don't matter to them much. I was just curious on why not wait for ya shot was all. I don't understand it, but it ain't for me to understand. Hunt on man. If your throwing chairs at the deer and its working, do it.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Big country,

I always wait for hte best shot possible and i tend to pass on more than half the deer i see just for that reason...if one comes running by and i feel confident with the shot and its in my range and broadside then sometimes ill take it sometimes i wont...it all depends on the situation...i dont want you to get teh impression that i go running around shooting at everything i see in range or not..its nothing liek that...i would much rather watch a deer walking around in the woods from high up in a stand with my heart pounding waiting for it to turn broadside for that shot but osmetimes that not always how it happens...i kno people can be hard on other in this side but i just saw it as though i was stating my opinion about the topic...to each his own...ill be hititn the woods tomorrow looking for 1 more deer to make some jerky out of for the winter...

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Well, for me... I have 1 shotgun, my browning bps... no scope. I feel more confident taking a 40-50 yard shot with buckshot than a slug only because at 40+ yards that big old bead, is tough to put it right on the vitals. At that range the bead covers a pretty big area... my gun patterns pretty well with buckshot and i've never had a problem with it at 40-50 yards. I can see how you might argue argue about damaging a bit more meat with buckshot, but thats the only arguement i can see against using buckshot under 50 yards. Pattern your gun with a few different loads and chokes and i think you'll agree. I hunt some pretty dense woods here in michigan, therefore i rarely get a shot past 40 yards. I guess if i was taking shots out to 100 yards with a shotgun, i'd have to invest in a scope and try out some slugs... until then, I'll stick with my OO buck. Make sure you match Your weapon and ammo to Your hunting conditions... not these guys that think your going to take 200 yard shots on a regular basis. It's nice to have that kind of range, but it may not be needed for Your type of hunting.

Good Luck

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

I understand and appologize NJ. I guess I did get that impression. I guess with the only experience with 00 had been a bad one, and then watching a few yahoos popping at deer with it, I kinda put you and other 00 shooters in that group unfairly. Like I said, if it works, I can't argue with results. I just never understood why I got such poor penetration at 40 yards on sika deer.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

-

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

no not me.;)

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

wow. when i did this post i would guess i would get about ten responces. but it seemed to be an argument. I probally will be using a slug form what i have read. 12 gauge slugs have 1 1/2 and i normally shoot 1 1/8. I was wondering about teh recoil. i would liek to know experiences. i haev looked at chuck haws page. if memory servers me right it is 23 and 42 or something in that vicinity. just can anyone tell me how much more felt recoil there is between a slug and birdshot?

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

I vote no on buckshot past 50 yards.

When I was a kid here in Alabama almost everyone hunted deer with dogs and shotguns with buckshot where the most common firearm in the woods. I have used it to kill many deer in my early days. Buckshot is indeed lethal at short range (0-40 yards) but it runs out of steam very very fast. Yes I have seen deer killed out past 50 yards but I have seen a lot lost at that distance too. 75 yards? Thats ridiculously irresponcible with any type of buckshot or choke combination. You would be lucky to put one pellet in a deer at that distance and even then you would have little to no control over where that pellet hit them or how much it penetrated. I've seen several shotguns that would shoot buckshot so well that they would put all 20 pellets from a number 1 buckshot shell in the bottem of an oil case box at 40 yards but even the people who owned those guns would never have taken a 75 yard shot.

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Big country..not a problem i saw where you were coming from but i did not want to be placed in that group...if i knew i would be taking shots over 50 yards frequently i would vote no for buckshot...without a doubt...from experience i have seen it kill over 50 yards but not comparable to a slug...under 50 yards its great i shot a nice doe tonight with buckshot...had some problems gettin up the tree with the wet slippery weather but the deer were moving...passed 2 others by and took this one around 4 15...23 yard shot and it folded right there...so my vote for a frequent shot over 50 yards with buckshot is no...

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

-

RE: slugs or buckshot?
 

Redsox.

Gorse pretty much covered it all...what type of semi do you use...i used to shoot the 11-87 premier and my father still does sometimes...worked great with a fullchoke and 3" 00 copper plated...modified worked well also...the reason why i use 3" is for the extra few pellets...if you take your time and pattern it well you should have no problem...my father also uses a slug gun..rifled out with a nice scope...he lieks it and is accurate out to a hundred yards or so...it was right on at 100 i think and he had the group touching each other...so whatever way you choose you should be ok..depends on the area and shot distance...