Deer Aren't Dropping
 

Ok here goes. I have shot 5 deer in my time. I am using a Win M70 in .308. The first three deer that I have shot were with 180gr Federal American Eagle Soft points. All three ran a total of 5 ft combined.

Recently I switched to 165 gr Federal Premium Soft Points because I was shooting 1" groups with it at the range. The last two deer that I shot have both run on me. The second to last deer I shot was at 25 yds, perfect broad side shot right behind the vitals. No exit wound and the deer ran about 70 yds. The last deer I shot was about 70 yds, again a good broad side shot. The deer went down, while trying to shoot another deer outside of my blind I spooked it and it ran into the woods. Before I could get to it a pack of coyotes were heard eating it in the distance. There was no blood trail at all other than the 4 ft length of blood at the poi. I never found the deer so I don't know where I hit it but I am sure it was a pretty good shot.

Is there that much difference in a 165gr and 180gr bullet? Or is it just dumb luck on the last two?

Thanks
Tom

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

I'll assume the bullet your using is the Seirra Gameking BT? If so this bullet performs better at longer distances, the gamekings have never had a rep to be real solid as the jacket is very thin. What is happening is due to velocity the bullets is over expanding, maybe even fraging to bits and not producing a exit by lack of rentention which equals penetration. I used the seirras for one year a long time ago, like you I was in love with their accuracy. My buck was no more than 30 yards and the bullet exploded into bits with no exit or opposite side damage besides a few bone frags in the opposite ribs. This buck travelled 100 yards the blood trail was thick at the intial shot location than tapered to a drip or two...thank good for snow! He had one lung into soup and the second looked partial and blood shot. The doe was 150 yards and the bullet performed flawlessly, leaving a nice sized exit hole..she still ran about 30 yards but was dead on her feet the lungs were torn apart. This was with a 270 win 130 gr bullet. Now mind you this isn't a lot of real field data, but it was enough for me to switch and never look back.

Being your shots appear to be 100 yards or under I would either move up to the 180's or switch to a bullet that is more solid constructed. A 165 Nosler Partition would be a good place to start, I have found them to be quite accurate and they will exit any deer you shoot broadside!

As far as bang and flop, that really is a uncontrolled occurance on a rib shot, some do and other do not, but you take out the lungs and he or she is walking/running dead.

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

Stat, it ain't the bullets you are using. You are expecting alot out of your load. I rarely just have deer fall over. I mean just a few weeks ago I shot a doe thru the heart with a muzzleloader with a 250gr barnes and 150gr of 777 kicking at about 2100fps. Without a heart she made it 50 yards. You never can figure out these animals. But then I shot a 5point with my bow on Sept 15th and it made it 20 yards and fell over.

I have had deer fall where they stand, run upwards of 100 yards with lungs melted, its just the way it is. Sounds to me your seeing pretty typical stuff.

I find the Gamekings to be devastating on deer. Inside and out. Its almost a perfect deer bullet. A good balance of toughness and mushroom. They don't mushroom like a Bullistic Tip but expand more than a barnes. I have shot well over a dozen deer with them handloaded for my 308. The don't like to be pushed over 2700fps, and from what your explaining you well within that arena. Keep hunting.

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

How do I know if the is the bullet I am shooting. I am shooting the Federal 165gr Premium that comes in a gold box.

Tom

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

Can I safely assume that if I buy the noler partition tipped bullets that my accuracy shouldn't change as long as I use the 165gr?

Tom

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

BigCountry,

The problem is that these deer aren't bleeding enough and with no snow I can't track them? Is there a bullet that will leave more of a trail?

Thanks
Tom

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

Tracking is something that not my strong suit either. But thru time and experience you will get better at it.

No you can not safely assume. I love partitions, but out of 5 or 6 gun I have l loaded them for, they generally are not a great accuracy bullet. If I get 1" groups, I am very happy. But I rarely find a gun that doesn't like the Sirra gamekings. Bullistic tips are a different story.

Not sure what to tell ya. Sounds like you are hitting them a tad high. Especailly if you see a initial blood pile, and not for a while. That fur soaks alot of it. I try to hit them very low for this purpose with my bow. My experience with 165gr gameking has been they leave the best blood trail in the business with Bullistic tips close second (if you don't hit a shoulder). Same thing with 130gr gameking for my 270. Now Barnes , partitions, TBBC, failsafes don't give the best blood trail but are more big game penetration bullets. Another good one is Hornady interloks. Same class as bullistic tips IMO.

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

Statjunk, on the box one of the ends will say what bullet is used (ie: 165 BTSP).

No it is never safe to assume that any bullet will shoot the same! Best to keep with what you've got or if you have the time head to the range and try a few shots.

I think what you need to do is pay attention to the exact location of the shot, with no snow it can be extremely tough to see specs of blood and no exit hole only makes it tougher as the entrance hole unless large can plug. On a perfect broadside shot I would expect the 165's to get through but apparently are not so that is why I suggested look at something that will hold a together better at higher velocities/close range.

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

One tip for tracking. Get you some Hydrogen Peroxide, and put in a spray bottle. spray on the ground occasionaly after a fresh kill, and where thiers blood, it will bubble. An old archers trick.

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

165 grain Nosler Solid Base Boat Tail or the 150 gr Nosler Part. Federal makes both and both are good rounds in the 30-06,should be the same for the 308 Win.
This will punch right through them.

Also try not to crowd the shoulder to much,have alittle space between the shoulder.

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

I'll counter Bareback's post: If you're worried about deer running, break their shoulder. I did this on every deer I shot back in high school, I'd wait for a shot so I could break the far shoulder on the way out (i.e. line of sight through the heart and lungs into the far shoulder). If you use a stout bullet like a nosler partition or a fail safe, you can hit the near shoulder and it'll PROBABLY still get to the vitals, but it's pretty risky...I really liked breaking the far shoulder...even if they didn't DIE quickly, they weren't going anywhere in any hurry...Don't compromise a vital shot by aiming for the far shoulder, but a quartering away shot almost always presents itself, and it gives the perfect angle for this shot.

180grns is more than you need for deer, 150grn in .30-06 or .308 is the general trend among most hunters.

One thing I'll say, if what you were doing worked, and what you ARE doing doesn't, switch back.

I personally use Winchester Supreme power point plus's or Supreme Ballistic Silvertips (NOT GOOD FOR CLOSE RANGE). When I reload my ammo, which I don't usually bother with for hunting (I need 20rnds of hunting ammo and 1000's of rounds of target/plinking/coyote ammo during a year), I use Nosler partitions or swift A-frames. I've used Barnes X bullets in the past too...Any of these bullets are good for quick kills and blood trails.

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

I would buy or reload Barnes x bullets with an SD of .240 or better then shoot rifle until i shot good groups. Then i would put the bullet into the shoulder & waste a pound of meat and drop them right there. I have harvested over 100 deer and shot a few types of ammo. I know those Barnes x bullets work!

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

Statjunk, the ONLY deer that ever dropped straight in its tracks for me was the doe I shot in 2002. I hit her right between the eyes with my .243. I must point out hat I do not countenance head shots as a matter of course; this deer was probably about 75 yards out, and I am ABSOLUTELY confident that I can cover a 100 yard three shot group with a quarter with this weapon and this handload.

One of the most memorable experiences in my life is delivering a fatal heart/lung shot on my first deer with a 165 grain .30-06 round. The deer dropped like a sack of potatoes, but then tried to get up, and struggled a bit. It would have died in a minute or tow, but for that deer, it would have been a LOOOONG minute. I admisinstered a head hsot coupe-de-grace. Obviously this was not a very photogenic first kill, but it bothers me to this day that this deer looked me in the eye as it died. It brought home the message that for me to survive, other living things must nourish me, and they deserve as quick and humane an end as can be administered[X(].

Anyway, they all tasted great:D.

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

I would also have to agree that you are expecting too much if you think that the deer will fall over right away every time. I've had a deer run over a hundred yards and when I field dressed it I couldn't enough heart meat to save it because it was in peices. I try to take out one shoulder if not both now. What little bit of meat I lose compensates for not having to track them.

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

Does anyone have a picture of exactly where my shot should be placed on a deer.

I usually put it right behind the front shoulder on the rib cage even with the top of the shoulder.

Thanks
Tom

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

Would using a hollow point help me at all for dropping deer?

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

Generally, hollow points are too "explosive" for use on deer, they give rapid, uncontrolled, and typically irregular expansion (but then again, a lot of us use Ballistic tip bullets?)....if you're close, yes, they'll thump the heck out of a deer and probably take it down, but they do a LOT of meat damage. Based on what I've seen of HP's in the past on deer, you probably won't get an exit wound, so if you make a marginal shot, you might not be able to track your deer.

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

I have never had a deer drop in its tracks from a broadside shot through the lung/heart area (the same shot that you said you take). The only time I have seen them drop is when they have had the shoulders broken on broadside shots.

Shooting them behind the shoulder will usually let them run off a short ways. I shot a deer a 60 yards over the week end that ran close to 100 yards without the use of its lungs (I was shooting a .300 Win. Mag. broadside). The blood trail was very good. They will also drop on head on shots to the chest also (usually breaks bone).

Cheers,
Donavan

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

Stat, here is a cut picture of a deer's anatomy, hope it helps you some. On a standing broadside I aim just behind the crease of the facing front leg approx. 1/3 of way up.

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

If you want to drop a deer in its tracks regularly (2/3 of the times or more) then you need some tougher bullets and you need to take shoulder shots. You break the shoulder blades and the deer isnt going anywhere. This also breaks or atleast shocks the spine, so they're completely immobile. But I wouldnt take this shot with a ballistic tip or other rapid-expanding type bullet because you wont get an exit wound most of the time, and you might not even make it to the 2nd shoulder (on a broadside deer) I did this with the very first deer I shot using 140gr Ballistic tips in my 7mm08, not only was there not an exit wound, but there wasnt an obvious entrance wound. All we knew was the deer was laying dead on top of the hill. We couldnt find the entrance hole until we skinned the deer. So get some tough bullets and aim for the shoulder if you want the "drop em in their tracks" shot

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

This year I used 150 grain Speer Grandslams in my 30-06. They did some good damage and exited. They left a good blood trail even though they only went about 30 yards. Both were hit through the lungs. Mine were factory loads from Federal.

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

I shot a good size doe at 150 yds and completely shattered the front shoulder and left a good blood trail. She ran fifty yds. I was using 150 gr Core lokts. I also shot a 165 lb buck at 40 yds through the heart and it ran 10 yds.

RE: Deer Aren't Dropping
 

you say the "top" of the shoulder do you mean the point of his"elbow"? or the true top of his shoulder? if your shooting for the true top of his shoulder then your putting it a little to high. look at the pic posted earlier, the vitals are mostly in 1/3 of the chest(top to bottom) and start just a smidge above center and go down.