Heavy Long Distance/Hunting Rifle
 

I'm intrigued by this, not just the hunting part but the shooting practice part, BUT I'm looking for a scope/rifle/cartridge that will deliver APPROXIMATELY 2000 fps and 2000 ft lbs accurately at 600 yards, of course the trade off is recoil versus LOTS of rounds of practice. Right now I'm looking anywhere between a 300RUM and a 338-378. PALMA and 308's are nice but DO NOT meet my criteria. It would be fun to even go to a 1000 yard range and play around. BTW I'm assuming the scope would have to be one of the types where you click in the MOA adjustments to fit your shot as a 10' bullet drop is a bit much to just "hold over"?

I looked at www.long-range.com but all I saw were girly guns and tournment paper punching. Anyone know another site or want to write a book on this one?

EKM

RE: Long Distance Rifle
 

This article Long Range Shooting & Hunting has been on Daniel Lilja's site for a number of years. Even though it is somewhat out of date, I'm sure there is a lot of usefull info for you there.
Don't write off the "girly guns and tournment paper punching" shooters. Look at them this way. A lot of the innovations that we take for granted with respect to our automobiles, such as tubeless tires, electronic ignition, rack and pinion steering, ect. were developed on the race track. Same thing applies to rifles. Someone a while back, I believe it was with a 6.5/.284, set a new world record, 5 shot group at 1000 yards of 1.99", if I remember right. I am sure the group was under 2". That achievement didn't come easy. It represents an amazing combination of a lot of skill, hard work, painstaking preparation, and top notch equipment, properly set up.
Myself, I'm getting all the components together for a 1000 yard BR rifle. I am going to send it all to Randy at Action Gun Works to build it. I've already got a couple rifles that shoot acceptable enough to enter in the matches. I am going to start competing next year against "girly rifles" like the one shown below. My strategy is I should be able to win because his action is painted with purple PTFE. :eek:

RE: Long Distance Rifle
 

50 BMG. Its tough to beat for distance. Don't know many girls that shoot one.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Long Distance Rifle
 

They do. A few have been know to win matches and set records. Good reason to keep them barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. ;-)
Just kidding gals.



From the site, Liberty Belles , a truly wonderfull group of ladies

RE: Long Distance Rifle
 

Thanks for the links. I'll check it out.
Very nice hardware, interesting stuff, some aspects may have to be incorporated.

If I was interested in pure benchrest and 1000 yard, then I'd probably go with the 50BMG (matches my personality), but at 33 pounds or so I consider it unfeasible for hunting use.

Not interested in pure benchrest shooting even though a considerable amount of bench and field practice would be involved. All I need is a lousy 6" or so group at 500 to 600 yards. This is going to be a heavy hunting rifle max weight 18 pounds (my 375 H&H M70 is 13 pounds ready to go and is very doable) something that can be carried in miles, shot off of jerry rigged "field bench", a rock, a backpack, or a tree while standing --- I will need to be able to get my hand around the forearm or support the forearm with a hand brace onto the side of an aspen tree.

Greg, I've looked at the 300RUM #'s, not bad, you already have a M700, so if I may ask what is the big deal about a Sendero?

EKM

RE: Long Distance Hunting Rifle
 

.338 RUM???? Ballistics with the new 225gr accubond are very, very impressive.
2500ft/lbs at 500 yards?

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Long Distance Hunting Rifle
 

I love my 338 RUM.

It is one heck of a shooter.


hunter338

RE: Long Distance Hunting Rifle
 

I will not shoot at game farther than 500 yards myself but my 7mmsyt's and 300ultramags have done a good job for me out to that distance.

RE: Long Distance Hunting Rifle
 

My observation is that staying with stalwart manufacturers (not the Lazzeroni way out there --- gone tomorrow --- stuff) that the 300RUM rules the .30 cal. category for performance.

When going to 338, the RUM loses out to the Lapua and Weatherby, though it is superior to the 338WinMag. For this rifle I figure I need the top of the group without waking up one morning finding out what was a production cartridge is now a wildcat.

7mm's strike me as running low on energy at range for what I say I want to do; they do hold up on velocity though.

If CZ chambered a 300RUM or 338 Lapua, then the search would be over in a flash. Not looking for a custom gun; I want the basics straight out of the box. Remington may be able to do that with the 300RUM though my Remington rifles are not my favorite rifles....

What about the scope end for that kind of shooting; I'm really not interest in doing "hold over" --- I want to crank it L&R and U&D and then return to "zero" when done. I'm guessing the scope will equal the cost of the gun....

EKM

RE: Long Distance Hunting Rifle
 

One word. Nightforce Check out the NP-R2 reticle. Each of those hash mark are 2moa at 22x. The NXS 5.5-22x scope has 100 mins of elevation travel. The 3.5-15x56mm has 110 min. of travel. The deal is, you mount on a sloped rail. 40 or 45 min of slope puts you near the end of the lower adjustment. Much more than 50 mins of slope, you have to hold under to shoot at 100 yards. You set your zero at whatever, lets say 300 yards. Then you loosen the elevation turret screw and set the turret to zero. Now, you have close to 100 minutes of elevation to crank up. Whatever your choice of scope, the optics must be top notch. As you get close to the edge of of the objective lense, lesser scopes loose brightness. Also, when you return to zero, you want to return to zero. When you buy a scope like this, you are paying for clarity, precision, repeatablity. There are other options, but this is one of the best. Leupold makes some nice high end scopes, so does IOR Valdada
Oh yea. You will also need to go with a rock solid, stress free, mounting system for your scope.

RE: Heavy Long Distance/Hunting Rifle
 

A sloped mount to "put" you scope near the bottom of its elevation adjustment.
That is a pretty smart idea.

EKM

RE: Heavy Long Distance/Hunting Rifle
 

Well, I didn't think think of it. I am just begining to learn.
Another twist is a sloped rail to put your scope in the center of it's optics at a desired or anticipated optimum range. Magnification is always a trade off. The more you magnify, the more resolution you lose. Scopes are brighter at the center of their optics. A 1000 yard competitor wants a rail that will put his optics right on or near center of elevation adjustment at 1000 yards. For .50BMG, a 30 minute rail is usually desired for 1000yrds. There are flatter shooting cartridges, at least to 1000. I believe a 6mm/300WBY mag has a 20 moa compensation to be zeroed a 1000 yards. But it's a barrel burner, and the higher velocity of the 6mm/300 loses out to the higher B.C. of the .50 BMG farther down range.
You don't have to have a B.R. rifle to shoot long range, and as you pointed out that would not be desirable. Your set up would more than likely resemble a varmint rig, such as the barrel profile and the type of stock. To do this right, your equipment will need to be good, and properly set up. You will need to research what works and what doesn't. It won't come cheap, either in time or money.

A Canadian sniper (they are among the best) took out an Al Qaeda terrorist in Afganistan at 2548 yards (.50 BMG), if I recall correctly. 1rst shot cut a cord holding the Al Quaeda's napsack, a correction was made, 2nd shot took off his head. I'm personally not interested in the military aspect of long range shooting, but that is an astounding feat. The military was developing .50 BMG sniper rifles in the 60's, but really did not know what to do with them. The guys involved in the F.C.S.A. early on helped out our Military with the knowledge that they had gleaned from target shooting with the .50 BMG. Now they (and us late comers) are being vilified for owning and shooting a rifle by those who claim it was designed for sniping, when actually it was adapted to sniping from target shooting. Ironic, isn't it.

RE: Heavy Long Distance/Hunting Rifle
 

Why do you need "2000 ftlbs at 600 yrds"?

You say you want a factory gun but you also want it to be heavy, factory guns dont come heavy.

Since you want a factory gun you are limited to a 30 cal with 220gr bullets (240s will require a faster twist) or a 338 cal with 250gr bullets (300s will require a faster twist).

I would suggest a 700 sendero in 300winmag with 220gr Sierra Matchkings with a 4.5-14*50mm Leupold LR scope. Definatly get a bipod, and I wouldnt worry about getting sloped bases if your only shooting 600 yards.

RE: Heavy Long Distance/Hunting Rifle
 

Castman,

This one has been "sitting" for a while. Nice of you to "pick it up." Your post appears to be a combination of honest well intended advice combined with some skepticism, let me explain where I'm trying to go with things.

This rifle would be for both target and selected hunting situations. I currently hunt elk with rifles that deliver 4,000 to 6,000 pounds at the muzzle for game at ranges 250 yards or so --- I just kind of like that kind of power, not likely I will ever be accused of being undergunned; however, I recognize that long range shooting "weakens" all rifles to a mere shadow of their former "200 yard selves". At long range I want a goodly amount of "thump" left over after the long trip.

That is an easy one. Some are heavier than others for example 700 Remington Police models in 300RUM with bull barrels. Weight I would add to the degree necessary if I deem the rifle not heavy enough, heavy was not a "from the factory" requirement. I currently have a M70 375HH though that weighs 12 pounds with scope, ammo, sling --- IMHO that is pretty heavy for a "stock" unaltered rifle.

We agree some here but not in entirely:
7mmSTW 160 gr. TSX 2180 pounds at 600 yards (2477 fps). [TKO=16] Recoil 19 lb/9 fps.
300 RUM 180 gr. TSX 2494 pounds at 600 yards (2498 fps). [TKO=20] Recoil 27 lb/11 fps.
338 Lapua 210gr. TSX 2702 pounds at 600 yards (2407 fps). [TKO=24] Recoil 34 lb/13 fps.
(May have to substitute the 338RUM since Lapua is kinda scarce, numbers are a little less though.)

Ballistically I find the 220/240gr 308s and the 250 gr 338s to tend to "fall out of the sky" too rapidly plus most "factory rifles" will have twist rates oriented to bullet weights closer to the mainstream.

Nice recommendation of the 700 Sendero, I've looked at them. However I would probably go with cartridges mentioned above which are saltier than the venerable 300WinMag. Your mention of scope would be quite nice.

Well, there comes the rub --- this kind of rifle is already out of the mainstream (the way I'd set it up) and thus a "specialty rifle" --- within the realm of its specialty, i.e. long range I want it to where if I want to go out to the 1000 yard range and play that it is just a matter of consulting the charts and cranking in the additional MOA's into the turrets, use of the ramp assures I won't run out of elevation adjustment in order to "hold dead on" the target.

It is a project that is "on the drawing board" and I don't know a ton about long range shooting. Now that my "blue print" is a bit more available, any continued critique/observations are welcome.

Thanks,
EKM

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Heavy Long Distance/Hunting Rifle
 

Greg,

You’ll find the front range of Colorado to be fairly liberal (too many Californians in the last 15 years) and finding a great place to go shoot is not easy. Oklahoma may have a more gun friendly culture. I think there may be one public short range on Rampart Range road (State Park) down towards Colorado Springs; however, if you are looking for serious shooting facilities you will likely have to join a club and do some driving. Best to just resign yourself to it, ante up, and get to using it --- cost of doing “business.” I’ve tried short cutting the process, going up into the "close in" mountains on public land and it is just not a good idea --- you may have the right to shoot, but you piss a lot of “non-gun” folks off --- just not a good idea, as each shot just echoes forever --- the front range population just saturates any close in mountain territory. Best to head east out into the Great American desert (Ben Lommond and Colorado Rifle Club) where it is not a problem. Unfortunately, to make it worthwhile you need to pack beverages and food and just make a “day” of it.
***************************
Colorado Rifle Club
(Stiff and Formal but GREAT facilities)
75000 East 112th Avenue
Byers, Colorado
45 minutes east of Denver
1000 yard

970-663-4779
http://www.crci.org/

***************************
Ben Lomond Gun Club
(Good Ole Boy and More “Loosey Goosey”)
10511 E Tanglewood Rd
Franktown, CO
45 minutes east of Castle Rock
300 yard (They were talking long range at one point)

(303) 688-8511
http://www.blgc.org/

****************************

BTW, I've been to Dragonman's --- the guy is a legend, you should visit at least once before it goes away --- he is a class III arms dealer and has full auto stuff you can rent (on premise/under supervision only) and has "short ranges" cut into a hilltop east of Colorado Springs, but for a hunter/marksman looking to sharpen up I don't think it is likely to be what you are hunting for.


Good Luck,
EKM

RE: Heavy Long Distance/Hunting Rifle
 

ElKampMaster:

If you handload, I would not worry about calibers turning wildcat. I would go with a .338-378 Wby. Mag. in a Weatherby Mark V Accumark, or a Weatherby Mark V Threat Response Magnum Custom. I have data for a .338-378 Wby. Mag. pushing a 250 gr. Sierra bullet at 3152 f/s, a 275 gr. Speer bullet at 3,088 f/s, and a 300 gr. Barnes Original bullet at 2998 f/s; all three loads will be devastating on elk although I would use different bullets than the ones mentioned (the Speer 275 gr., and the 300 gr. Barnes are no longer made) . I would use a 250 gr. Barnes XFB, or a 275 gr. Swift A-Frame for hunting. For long range target I would use a Sierra 250 gr. HPBT Match King, or 300. gr HPBT Match King. Good luck.

RE: Heavy Long Distance/Hunting Rifle
 

Handloader1,

Wow, I appreciate that ..... a "long" post for you, some research in it too! Thanks!

I assume the threat response version is a "police type" heavy barrel.
Question, what do you think of Weatherby's free bore factor for long range shooting accuracy?

EKM

RE: Heavy Long Distance/Hunting Rifle
 

LOL, ekm I would hardly consider Lazzeroni as a "...way out there... gone tomorrow..." company. The man does what he does because he enjoys it, not because he is trying to make a living. He is a multi-millionaire from industy. He isnt dependant upon guns for keeping the doors open. That alone puts him WELL ahead of most custom/wildcatters if you will.

The Warbird and up will MORE than do what you are wanting. 600yds is never easy but I cant think of anything that makes that distance easier than the 'bird. The RUMs are fine guns as well, but you will certainly need to handload them to get the max from them. As will a 30/378 Wby.

All of the above mentioned thundercannons are fun to shoot at well over a 1/4 of a mile. And they can be had in packages that make them suitable for toting out west.

That bein said, I wont quit till I have a AR50 lol,
RA

RE: Heavy Long Distance/Hunting Rifle
 

ELKampMaster:

I own a Weatherby Mark V Sporter .340 Wby. Mag., and I have never observed any lack of accuracy due to freebore, I seat the bullet to just fit the magazine. I have two other friends who own Weatherby Magnum calibers, and they have no problems with freebore. If I do my part, my .340 Wby. Mag. will shoot under .50" three shot groups at 100 yds., and this also goes for a friend's .340 Wby. Mag. I also have another friend who has a .338-378 Weatherby Mark V Accumark, and he shoots under .75" three shot group at 100 yds., and he is not a serious handloader he loads to save money. He also owns a Weatherby Mark V Deluxe Lazermark .378 that shoots under .75" three shot group at 100 yds.

The 300 gr. Sierra HPBT Match King will probably reach the riffling; you will just have to make sure to start at MIN LOAD watching for pressures. The bullet will not fit the magazine, but in benchrest shooting one loads rounds one by one. Good luck.

RE: Heavy Long Distance/Hunting Rifle
 

EKM,
I have a nephew who has a Remington Sniper I think it is a SPS in .300 Ultra mag.He has a Sheperd Rang scope 6-18 x40.With 200 gr noslers we were hitting milk jugs at 6 and 700 yds.It was quite simple to use and it was acurte once you figured the wind drift.

Also the Leateher wood scopes look to work or the Springfeild Armory.

As for caliber if I was going that route I would go any fast 300's(Ultra,Warbird or the 30-378)and shoot 200 gr bullets.
BBJ

RE: Heavy Long Distance/Hunting Rifle
 

EKM,

This is exactly why I bought the .300 Ultra. Although I bought it before I found out about the 30-378, which does out run the Ultra by 100fps. But I am still happy with getting the 300 ultra. I second BBJ's 200gr bullet remark. That is what I will be shooting as an all around load, 200 grain Nosler Accubond.

RE: Heavy Long Distance/Hunting Rifle
 

I hunt with a Winchester M70 in .308. It doesn't meat your ballistics at 600+ yards but it is a heavy accurate gun. I am under 1" at 200 yards with this gun using factory loads.

Tom

BTW - I had my bipod on there backwards at the time of picture.

RE: Long Distance Hunting Rifle
 

for me when that question is asked i think of a 338-378 wby mag at least for long range hunting

RE: Long Distance Hunting Rifle
 

Thanks for your input,

I'll reconsider the Lazzeroni and look into the specialty version of the Weatherby.
Essentially, I'm looking at 308's (RUM, Lazzeroni) on the low end and 338's (RUM, Lapua, Weatherby) on the high end --- it is just a matter of how to "package" it.

Currently my rack of rifles is already "heavy" on the "mid-bore" end (338-338-375-416); hence perhaps something more down towards the "antelope" calibers :D:D:D [just kidding] like the 300 RUM holds a certain attraction as far as "cartridge spacing" amongst my new toys. [I don't like deer venison, but antelope is much better tasting and provides a handy, typically longer range experience here in Colorado/Wyoming as a September "warm up" to elk season --- in addition, the NOV/DEC caribou thing in Quebec just sounds like more "fun" than anyone should be allowed to have.]

Insofar as my choices in realm of the 300 RUM go, at the risk of being laughed at, I'm also looking at a Savage 116 in 300 RUM:
** Synthetic and Stainless
** 3 position tang safety that locks down the bolt (unlike the new 700s I'm told), lost an opportunity on an elk due to that once).
** Accutrigger - Remington and Ruger require trigger replacement right out of the box IMHO.
** Cheap, price allows for putting lots more $ into the ramp/mounts/scope set up.

Is this being penny wise and pound foolish for non-competition Long Range? Never owned a Savage before. BTW, the looks of a rifle means very little to me, it is the feel and the performance --- can't see the rifle when I'm in the process of shooting it.

EKM

RE: Heavy Long Distance/Hunting Rifle
 

EKM,

I have been told Savage is a good accurate gun. I personally really like the feel of my Browning A-bolt Stainless Stalker. And at 499 I could beat the deal.