To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

[8D] I have used both Magnum and non-Magnum cartridge rifles for years. What I don't understand is why cartridges like the .376 Steyr and .338-06 are not more popular. Yes the Magnums will shoot farther but at the cost of a lot more recoil and muzzle blast. Lets face the fact that most hunters can not shoot well enough to hit much past 200 yrds. and that is where the Magnums start to make much of a difference.

If I could order my perfect rifle for the hunting I do now it would be a Remington 7600 either stainless or rust proofed chambered for .338-06 or .376 Steyr (basically a turbo .375-06) with a squared 20 inch medium heavy barrel on a squared action. I like big holes for those times one needs to track; eyes are not what they used to be. The pump for fast follow up shots especially on a bear headed my way. Only an auto is faster but I don't trust an auto enough under adverse conditions. The .338-06 would be a better allround choice as it offers bullets from 180 gr. to 300 gr. in premium controled expansion bullets like Nosler, Swift, Barnes X and Tripple Shock.

I have used up to a .375 H&H custom bolt action but for closer work like I enjoy now I would like to see a descent fast handling power house. For me all these ultra high velocity
cartridges offer nothing. Hunting something that can hunt you back I want controled thump. Think a black bear is easy prey? I had a friend in Colorado who (unfortunately not a hunter) was killed and eaten by a black bear; only the second person in the history of Colorado but of little help when you are on the wrong end of claws and teeth.

Magnums have there place. Unfortunely to many people show up in the woods way over gunned for their shooting ability. That .30-06 did not drop that deer so next year they show up with a .30 Magnum of one sort or another. Of course if they could not shoot an 06 well enough what do you think the close your eyes and brace yourself for the recoil crowd can do with a Magnum? It is still more important where you hit than what you shoot but as I said I like Big holes.

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

I had the big Magnum craze as bad as it could get. Those days are gone and I have settled back to reality. For those who think they must shoot past 400 yards, I quess the magnums make a little sense. However as you stated most shooters would be blind lucky to be able to judge the range and hit an animal at that range. Even then to make a good hit with the variables involved at those ranges is tough to say the least. I learned this while shooting steel silhouettes at ranges we knew where no quess work was needed. There is no substitute for shot placement and practice more than power is the key. I rely on the old 45-70 for really big game. If I had a real need for more power and long range ability then I would look at a Magnum again. Until then the 280 will fill all my needs. I also love my 7600 30-06. With that gun I feel pretty well armed for all North American game. Good hunting.

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

Man....you said a mouthful there.....

My .257 Weatherby and my .264 Win Mag are gone and replaced with a .260 Remington and a .257 Roberts. My .338 Win Mag is for sale and my .300 mags are sitting collecting dust in favor of my .30-06.

There's nothing like experience to facilitate education.

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

Paparock I am not much of a Mag. fan either. But I have one question. What are you putting these big holes in?

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

I pretty much feel the same about how you do. Most Magnum class cartridges are really not necessary for most situations. For years, animals were being killed with "standard" calibers that are not even being considered for hunting by a lot of people when in the past, almost everyone would use that peticular caliber for what game was at hand. Of course time has changed, and people want something new. Making a new "standard" cartridge would simply make no sense, and certainly making one that goes slower would not make any sense at all. People have to make money selling firearms. If a person has that old .30-06 sitting in the closet and no one comes up with something new to buy, then the gun market shuts down, because that hunter has no real reason to buy a new cartridge. I currently shoot a .30-06 for big game, and feel confident taking most animals on this continent. Get into the big bears, or even moose, and I would feel much more confident with a more powerful cartridge up to about maybe the .338 WM or similar. I do however feel that the super magnums are really unnecessary simply because it gives people a false sense of security when shooting at distant game. They feel that they can make a longer shot than they really can, and end up making a lot of noise and losing the animal, when a lesser cartridge would have done the job just as well.

Well, hope I didn't bore every one, just an issue that I think about from time to time also, but don't get to talk about very much.

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

Come on guys, most high powered rifles are not necessary for deer. Anything past 2700fps with 130gr bullet is just overkill or fun past that point. You still have a significant advantage over the animals.

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Are you guy's trying to make me feel bad about my 7mm Rem.Mag.:DIf "BABY DOll " hears ya'll talking about her it is going to hurt her feelings.......LOL:(

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

No offense to Magnums as they have a place in hunting. As others have said the .30-06 will do most everything. It is my most used caliber as well. I like many just look for a good excuse to get a different gun.

To me the art of hunting up close and personal is the enjoyment. Yes I have hunted with a long bow mostly for that reason. But firearms are my passion. I guess I am a throwback like Elmer Kieth. I like big bores. Heck I ran with guys in Wyoming that hunted with .458 Magnums loaded down to just above .45-70 hot loads. They are great for blow down hunting.

Rocky Latham

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paparock,I was just jerking your chain.I am somewhat of a prankster around here.Actually we just got a bear season here in southside Virginia last year.So I am trying to figure out a new caliber barrel for my Encore for this purpose.Any suggestions.45.70? .35 wheelan?.12 gauge slug:D I think I can get just about any thing I can come up with.

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

I agree with you guys to a point. So I guess since no one else wants to stirr the pot any , I will...;)

This has been an ongoing subject for a while now. Tell ya what..

We can look at it like this ....

Why do we even need to hunt with a rifle? Hell the Indians hunted with just a string bow , And we still have people hunting with bows..
They kill just as good as a rifle does, dont they??

I guess we can tell everyone that all you need to take to Africa is a .22 cal rifle being that you cant shoot aout past 200 yards.

I agree that for most of the North American game you really dont need anything over a 270 or a 30-06 to drop just about everything here..
BUT TO EACH THEIR OWN .. I use a 270 cal for most of my small deer sized game. Some people on here think that it is too much gun for deer..

I dont though. I use a 338 RUM for ALL of my Elk hunts, Carib, Bear, and hopefully here pretty soon Moose.
Even though I can kill everything that I hunt with my Bow..
I still opt to use a rifle on hunts that I save money to purchase.

Just my 2 cents .

hunter338

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

Hey stir away. I until the last few years I used a .375 H&H but then I could shoot it just as well as my .30-06 which is my point. More people need to learn to shoot with non-magnums before choosing a caliber more on macho than common sense. If you can shoot it well then more power to you. Most of the guys I knew could not shoot their ultra-light .30-06 as well as I could my .375 H&H. People as a rule do not put in the practice under field conditions but rather hit paper over sand bags just enough to see if the rifle still shoots were it is looking.

Swampdog, it I was going to get a new caliber for bears and such it would be a .376 Steyr. It has no belt on the case, is .30-06 approx. in length, and stomps on the heels of the .375 H&H Magnum but is more shootable. One was on sale on the Guns America site last night when I was window shopping. Good Luck!
Rocky Latham

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

Anyone who dosen't want or like their magnum firearms, or any firearm can send them to me. Good Shooting!! :D

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Darn it, I just gave away all the ones I did not like. At least that's what it feels like some times when people make you offers on "used" guns. I have a few I will never part with as they were my Grandfathers and my Fathers. As for the rest some I wish I had never parted with and some I could not part with fast enough. They all have their srtenghts and limitaions. Too bad more operators (shooters) do not realize their strengths and limitaions. Like Clint Eastwood said as "Dirty Harry" " A man needs to know his limitations."
Rocky Latham

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

I enjoyed working with my Magnum rifles back when the shoulder was in tact. However now I have a lot of rifles setting around here but the 7600 30-06 Remington Pump is the last one I would part with. I would like it even better if it were a 270.

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I believe the reason the .38/'06 is not more popular is because only one or two makers are chambering a rifle for it. If Weatherby would chhamber it in the Vanguard instead of just the lightweight Mark V, and Rem. would bring it out in the M 700, I believe a lot of people would buy one! I know I would!

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

"To Mag or Not To Mag?"

IMHO, that is not really the question. "Magnum" does not mean anything --- it is merely an emotional buzz word for folks to fret about. The word "magnum" is a century old marketing ploy. Some of the more powerful cartridges out there do not have the word "magnum" in their name.

(1) Size up the game you are hunting, the conditions, and your ability (including the ability to manage recoil).

(2) Decide on the caliber and weight of bullet and velocity you feel is appropriate for your chosen quarry. Generally, I recommend little tools for little jobs and big tools for big jobs; Barnes and Federal have codings to help you decide if you are uncertain.

(3) Go to the reloading book, find the cartridges that fulfill your criteria and choose the one you want.

(4) When you get the rifle, have it "fitted to you" by a competent individual (90% of rifles are used straight out of the box = big mistake)

EKM

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

When you say fitted, what exactly do you mean?

I have one rifle that was custom fitted for me for my length of pull and comb. Very nice. Has it made a hill of beans difference in killing an hunting abilities? No. Would I bring home more game with it than before. Not a bit.

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

Eldeguello, AMEN. For the hunting where I am now (Arkansas) I would love a .338-06 or a .376 Steyr Remington 7600 rustproofed with a 20" barrel. I plan to do a lot of bear hunting here and a large exit hole would help in tracking such a soft footed animal in heavy timber. Bear here are transplants from Manitoba and Maine from what I hear. The state's Black Bear Bores are generaly larger than average often exceding 400 lbs. But the current rage is Ultra-Mag or WSM not what us average joes can use. They tell us what we should want not the other way around at least until we vote their offerings off the market by not buying them. I guess that is what keeps a lot of custom gunsmiths in business, making us different types the firearms we want. Of course if the gun and hunting magazines along with Hunting TV shows hyped rounds like the .338-06 or .35 Whelen like they do the latest ultra-high velocity offerings then things might change. It is like a gun shop owner friend of mine said about his sales of the .454 Casull. Most come in all hyped in the morning to pick up their new macho mag handgun only to bring it back as soon as that same afternoon to be sold cause it hurt them. Oh well it keeps the money flowing. I was talking to Randy Garrett via email why he does not offer a .454 offering. He said cause his loads in .44 Mags handle the job and are more controlable. See, I do use a Mag. but what ELKampMaster says is true many real power house cartridges do not have Magnum in their name but here in the USA "Magnum" sells. I have listened to too many hunters sit around the camp fire braging about how much faster their rifle bullets are than the one that just finished his story. Me, I just smile and maybe whistle at their tales of macho ability but put game down just as well with my poor "underpowered" rifle. He, He. ;)

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

A Perfect example is the 100 plus year old 45-70 still shooting the same old slow poke bullet through anything it hits. Black Powder, Smokless ,cast or jacketed bullets. What it won't do probably don,t need done.:D I always have three or four of them.

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

Length of stock and eye relief of scope mainly. When you close your eyes and throw it up to your shoulder and get comfortable and then open your eyes you need to be looking right into a correct scope picture.... No head bobbing up and down, no forward and back -- no parallax, no thumb anywhere near your nose, a good cheek weld --- all automatic, with no effort. If you are the "generic shooter" that gun manufactures build their rifles to, then lucky you. For most others it needs looked at. One hasn't lived until he takes on a rifle that is too short for him.... a modest cartridge can become a wicked witch.

ESPECIALLY, if you utilize some of the friskier recoiling rifles, then the fit becomes critical not only to quick target acquisition and accurate shooting, but also critical to recoil management. IMHO, the lack of this latter item is flat out epedemic in the USA. For example, just last month on this forum, a 250 pound, 6 foot bruiser intimidated by a 270 ---- something wrong with that picture.....

I don't know if any of this will make sense, but that is what I mean.

EKM

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

Oh don't get me wrong Elkamp, I love my custom. I just love taking it out and throwing it up. But this is a luxury. I too am 6'3" and I rarely find a gun that has the length of pull I need. But I have a champagne taste for guns and beer budget. If I had my choice all of em would be fitted to me. Now for eye relieve that is an easy one. I buy leupold, (now buying conquest), and that takes care of that problem. I do all my own scope mounting/lapping, so I make sure it fits me.

I guess what you are talking about is when these guys buys these combos, and don't take the time to adjust scope. I agree there. But all of us can't have a stock catered to us.

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

Length of stock is key.

The fix doesn't have to be pretty, just effective.

A $15 slip on (rubber or velcro) recoil pad with spacers can fix the problem easily; once the proper length is figured out a good "attached" recoil pad (with spacers if necessary) and ground down to flow into the stock is not expensive and not beyond most folks ability. (IF THEY WOULD JUST DO IT.) Or just leave the "temporary" recoil pad on it --- I have a couple with the rubber slip ons that have been on for years. If it already has a recoil pad on it, then don't take it off, just slip the add on recoil pad right over it.

Regarding Leupold, you are right, Leupold is very good at providing ample eye relief which helps greatly in allowing one to get by with a certain amount of "slop factor"; however, if the stock is too short, the scope is clear forward and parallax still intrudes one is going to be playing "bob and weave" while the elk leave.

At MagFest2003 our instructor added and subtracted stock length for each person for each rifle "on the fly". It only took seconds with a velcro add on recoil pad with spacers. We worked through rifles from 7mmRemMag to 500 Nitro Express and pretty much everything in between with a group of shooters ranging from 160 pounds and shorter to 230 pounds and 6'5". No one got "hurt" and everyone was amazed at how recoil "just wasn't that big of a deal."

It ain't rocket science but one does have to know what to look for and then actually DO IT in order for it to work. Cheap too!

Again, figure out how wide a bullet, how heavy, and how fast you want it to go, pick one, make sure the rifle fits and if your box of ammo has the word "magnum" on it then fine, if it don't say magnum (say 30-06 or 416 Rigby or whatever) then that is fine too.

Mag or No Mag? Much ado over nothing in my opine. Little tools for little jobs, bigger tools for bigger jobs and let the "labels" fall where they may.

EKM

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

Its true Mugnum is just a name or maybe selling point. Be it cars guns or tools. When it comes down to it, you put more in, you get more out. To a point that is. Its all in the ballistics that you want or need as EKM said. With the calibers we have available to day you can tailor a round to do exactly what you need it to do. Some of the Magnums offer advantages in some areas and will come with a cost be it recoil or muzzle blast. Use what you need and keep in mind that regardless of caliber, shot placement is everything and there is no substitute for it.

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

hunter338 I think there is some wisdom in your choices, although alot of guys give up the shoulder canons as they get older, but we also tend to get smarter and more patient as we age, which translates into more selective shots. Also many shooting skills improve over the years, all of which allows guys who are older to be just as ,if not more effective w/ smaller calibers. MAKE MINE A MAG

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

The cal frist minchiond in this post would be some good cals to use hunting.

But the draw back is simple.
The 338-06 was a wild cat not to long ago and so was the 35w.

Most hunters are hunters not shoters/gun nuts so a wildcat or hard to find round is not going to sell as good as a easly found mag.

I started out a few years ago looking for a 35w i could not find one on the other hand i knew where there was 4 338 win mags so i got one.

I handle the recoil fine and shoot it ok.

I use it on deer.

I am one to belive you can not be over gunned {AS LONG AS YOU CAN SHOT OK WITH THE ROUND IN ?}

I persionly use the 338 and 45-70 on deer.
yes the little Fl deer.

do i fill over guned not at all.

I belive the larger cals and heaver bullets are a better killer.

My helth limets my abilty to track most of the time.

with My chosen cal and loads i dont have to track much.

Depending on my stand set up deticates the cal.
where i can not see over 100yds i use the 45-70 and over 100yds i use the 338.

so far with thoes tow guns and loads i have not lost a deer.

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

Amazing the amount of powder and muzzle blast you get to have a trajectory a few inches flatter at 300 yards. But then, if I lived in the Dakotas or Montana, I would have a 300 winmag too. It is 60 miles between towns anyway.

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

The 338 and 45-70 will certainly work for deer. However it is not the big bullet or the velocity or anything but shot placement that insures a quick clean kill. I have never had a deer so much as take a step after being hit with my 257 Roberts with 100 grain bullets. It does not have the bullet weight or oversized bullet to do the work. However when shot placement is perfect or near to it then its the best deer rifle I could hope to have. The same goes for the 6.5x55 mauser that I have taken the most big game with. I pick my shots, no body says I have to shoot a critter with an iffy shot. Take a deer an elk a moose or any other critter you like. Many calibers from 25-06 on up will drop them in there tracks with good shot placement. I have never shot a deer with a 338 but I can second your choice of the 45-70.;)

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

JB

I never had the deer drop with the 30-06 and 7mm mag
Shotting in the same place they all ways ran.

Normaly not far and normaly with a good blood trail.
but the ran.
with my legs like they are is why i went to the big bullets. they seam to work.

"at least i have the conifince in thgem to work"

now that 45-70 i love the way it puts them down it looks like a rug has been pulled from under them.

My cousion uses a 338 rem ultra mag.
he has long shot though. I hear about out west but try looking over a Fl. penut fild or soybeans.

they offer some long shots.

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

I have to go with ELKampMaster on this one. But I will also say sometimes a mag is the only way to go here in the west. I took a friend from Virigina bowhunting elk here in Idaho last year. He kept saying he couldn't believe the size of the country. He said most people from back east wouldn't believe how big, and the amount of space there is here in the west. He shot at, and missed a bull elk with his bow. After the hunt he was asking me questions about rifle hunting elk. He owns guns is several different calibers from the standards to the ultra mags. I told him to use his .300 RUM, he said why because he was only 20 yards away when he missed his bull with his bow. I tried telling him that the general rifle bull elk hunt is a totaly different ball game. Lots more hunters, the elk have been chased around by bowhunters, and depending on the unit some early draw rifle hunts. Also some early cow hunts before the bull hunts. Anyway to make my point the elk are spooked and skittsh by the time general season rolls around. Now you might see a bull elk at 400- 600 yards away, and yes during bow season it is easy to get close. But depending on the situation, sometimes during the "gereral gun hunts" thats as close as you are going to get. And the only chance you are going to have during that hunt. A magnum might mean the difference between shooting and killing a bull and going home empty handed. Now should a hunter shoot a magnum well? And practice a lot so it doesn't matter if he is shooting a .243 or .338, meaning you can put any gun in his hands, and he can shoots it good? Well of course you should practice and shoot any gun accurately be it standard or magnum!

RE: To Mag or Not To Mag?
 

Hey paparock...

You said that you now live in Ark. Just where abouts do you live?
I grew up in Ark and still go there every year to hunt Hogs and Whitetail...
(In a little town called Timbo).

Just woundering where and to see if you might want to hunt in a different part of Ark...


I now live in NM and love the different types of game that it has to offer for hunts..

hunter338