Help with an old mauser.
 

Hello all. I require the privilage of your collective knowlege. I have just aquired my winter project. It is an old 6.5x55 Swedish mauser, but unfortunatly, I do not have it right in front of me, I left it at the shop. The problem is, I don't know what it is. I am aware, there were apperantly 3 versions of the military rifle. 2 long barrels, and a short 18" carbine. Mine is the carbine. On the bbl, there is a VT stamped on it, at first I thought Vermont, but thats just silly. All thats there is the barreled action. It's not pretty, but it functions. I fell in love with the little model 70 and 77 compacts. I think this will be the ideal little action to base my compact rifle on. I'm not sure as to what I'll do for a scope mount yet. I don't like side mounts, but the reciever is slotted directly on top, on the rear half where the bolt passes through. Perhaps a foward mount with an extended eye relief scope (?). If anyone has a similar rifle, let me know please, and how you managed to mount optics. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to read this post.

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

If it is a true "shorty" Swede it is known as the 94. The 96 was the longer 29" length barrel, the model 38's barrel was somewhere around 25.5 inches (I think) but the original 94 was VERY short....either 17.5 or 18.2 ...somthin like that.
Make sure you have it checked out by a competent smith......many of the really old shortys will not stand up to heavy pressure. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be a sweet carbine for modest speeds.

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

The model 94 Mauser had a 1/2" piece added to the barrel to make it 18" long . That was required by the BATF when they were first brought into this country. It is a weak action as 8MM/06 said . My model 38 has a 23 1/2 " barrel .

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

There were many versions of the mauser 96 in Swedish service, most of them made in 3 arsenals in Sweden (Carl Gustav, Husqvarna and Göteborg royal navy arsenal [3 crowns over an anchor] too, large numbers of Oberndorf Mausers and Kongsberg rifles were imported)

Most carbines were made from rifles, but carbines were never widely used (only horse cavalry and later armoured car troops were issued them) Special forces, marines and mountain-troops were issued either the short rifle (equal in appearance to the CG M38) or used a full sized battle-rifle. Basically, the 96 action is not a weak action, neither is the 94. compared to a 98 action ANYTHING is weak and then again, most of these rifles are well passed into retirement age.

Any load deemed safe by commercial manufacturers can safely be fired in a properly functioning m94/96.m38 because these rifles are not the minimum standard for this caliber, the Krag-Jorgensen & Krag-Petersen rifles are. And compared to the Mauser action, the Krag is weaker, but still a very strong action in all respects.

There is however one issue to take to heart, and that is if your barrel is being tested for "Torped pryttskytte / VT" (the old pre 1909 torpedo style long bullets) if so, your barrel is also usable for spitzers, but could be very inaccurate. Some barrels don't like them, due to the twistrate, which is apparantly too slow for short bullets.

One other thing is the issue of fast follow up shots, don't overdo it, the barrelcrown is easily burned out. Allow the barrel to cool, after all, the bullet is a pretty fast one.

The Swedish army prided itself in the marksmanship of the troops and the choice of rifle is because of that, more a precision rifle than a fast operating one. The side mount works great, but some Carl Gustav actions were fitted with tapped holes for the mounting of a scope. Again, a great multitude of models were in use, If I recall correctly a 3.5 power scope was somewhat of a "standard"


Good luck,

Vesi

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

Thank you, 8mm/06, Halcon, and Vesi for your help. I will be sure to test this thing out as safely as I can, and will keep you updated. Vesi, thanks again for clearing up the VT issue, I dont think the long bullets will be an issue. This is the reason I like the 6.5...I think the old long bullets are sweet. And will probably shoot them exclusivly, provided they shoot well enough. Thanks again to all, and feel free to add to this as much information as your fingers will type.

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

Good stuff Vesi:)

I have a few questions...
Weren't most of the rifles built for the ogive tip bullets of approximately 160gr and then the Swedes changed over the pryttskytte spitzer bullet of about 143 gr later? The range plates on the stocks are there because the sights are calibrated for the older ogive bullet but shows sighting adjustments when using the newer bullet.

VT- if its struck on theleft side of the receiver in very crisp deep letters with serifs, it probably is an inspector's mark. If the lettering doesn't look to be the same quality as the rest of the markings on the rifle- if its crooked, shallow, has peened edges, sans serif, its probably an import marking- Typically something like St Albans, CAI VT, Century VT etc.

If its a mauser 94, I wouldn't worry, it would make a great hunting rifle. Don't worry about the ammo having too much pressure- the 6.5x55 is a relatively low pressure round, all of the commercial ammo is good in it, with the possible exception of PMC brand which is known to range from very- to too hot for mausers. I have 2 boxes of this stuff that I have to pull down because I shot a few rounds of it and had high pressure signs.
If you reload, keep the velocities and loadings sane, Remember these rifles came around about the same time as the Ford Model T, the Model T will get you where you want to go so long as you don't try to hotrod it and get it up to 100 mph.

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

Briman,

Yes, most IMPORTED (imported into Sweden, that is) rifles of pre 1909 manufacture were made to take the old roundnose bullet, but nevertheless some rifles could be used with both with equal succes, most carbines were less happy with spitzers for some reason. Swedish made rifles were all made to use spitzers, Norwegian Krags were all made for roundnose bullets. Actually the twistrate of the barrels made for roundnoses are lower than those for spitzers. Accuracywise they don't differ that much though, I've shot Mausers, Carl Gustavs and Krags and all shoot well with both types of ammo, though a M38 for exampe is less easy to cycle roundnose than earlier rifles.

Actually the name pryttskytte means presision rifle ammunition (sniper round, usually with a gilding metal jacketed projectile which looks like its nickel-plated) and was and is used for all rifle ammunition (for battle use). The old roundnose bullet stayed in use throughout the use of the M38, only being abandoned when Sweden adopted the Ljungmann self-loader, which would not cycle reliabily with the round bullet. Yes, the stockplates are meant for recalibrating the sights, btw.

as for the VT mark, to the best of my knowledge it stands for "Värja Typ", meaning Defence Model, but you could just as well be right.


Kind regards,

Vesi

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

As long as we're kicking around shared info on this military weapon and it's many sub-species...anybody have any input on the Model 38 variant produced by the Oberndorf arsenal. I have 2 of these actions with bolt that I have been saving for projects. I also have 1 Swede barrel, new in the white, and am considering installing this 6.5 x 55 barrel on one of the actions but am curious as to how hot a cartridge I could SAFELY propel from these Oberndorf actions?
Any suggestions?

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

Carl Gustav and Husqvarna M38 actions are much stronger than German actions, not only because of construction, but mainly because of the steel used and the more recent date of manufacture. An M38 action is actually an improvement over the original Mauser 1894/96 types. They are not the same actions! Oberndorf = Mauser, M38 is Swedish national production.

Its unsafe to push this cartridge beyond Military specifications and totally useless to do so. The 6.5 x 55 will not be very much more effective, its rather good as it was designed.

Old parts & and more power usually don't add up to a good idea, remember the 94/96 have the nasty habbit of NOT directing hot gasses away from your face when a primer ruptures. Powder burns don't win you beauty-contests and hurt like @#4!!!&the rest!

kind regards,

Vesi

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

Well that answers my main question then. The one Oberndorf action will wear my military 6.5 x 55 barrel...and the other will wear a barrel of a mild pressure deer round. I've been interested in playing with the old .25-35 Winchester round since I was a kid. My grandfather had an old Winchester High Wall in this round that he kept in the car at all times. It was a fun gun at the gravel pit when I was growing up and was capable of taking deer with a well placed shot. Might be fun.

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

Hold on a minute...

I've always been under the impression that 94 and 96 actions were slightly different, but 96 and 38 actions were the same.

The 38's were nothing more than a shortened 96 or a carbine model. There were alot of M38s made from 96s by means of cutting down the stocks/ restocking and replacing the barrels when the barrels on the 96s were worn out.

Nope. Oberndorf M96/M38 rifles were made from Swedish steel- some of the best and strongest steel available at the time. Rifles made at Oberndorf are every bit as strong and well made as those made in Sweden, if they weren't Sweden would have never used them. To say that Swedish mausers used a better steel than in the typical German made M98's would probably be correct however.

For a longer bullet, you need a faster twist rate to stabilize a bullet. All of the rifles will stabilize a 160 gr rn bullet, and therefore have a fast enough twist rate to stabilize smaller bullets such as 140s, 129s, etc, though going too light will give accuracy problems.

Imported rifles and import marks- by law, any firearm imported into the united states has to have an import marking stamped on either the barrel or receiver.

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

You are right about the barrels, but I don't wan't to be cocky but....


M38 were never made in Germany, and their actions are different from m96 actions. They're different because they're beefier, they have a steeper feedway, the have a more effective gas vent, and the bolts are stronger because of the special high chrome steel used for them. Whats more, the entire story about why and how the M38 came into being is an answer in itself. The Swedish couldn't purchace rifles from Germany at the time, the late 1930's.

Sweden, like so many "neutral" nations saw war clouds gathering during the latter half of the 30ties and in contradiction to some other countries, did modernize and re-equip their military.
This was done primarily by nationalizing the arms industry, founding new factories and shipyards. The SAAB company is the result of the Swedish effort to build its own fighter planes for example.

About the rifles. The Swedish army wanted a self loader as early as 1934, but even though engineers like Kjellman and Ljungmann did attempt to build it, only the Ljungmann came into production stage before 1940, by which time the North was already at war. The M38 was thought of as a stopgap measure and it was phased out of frontline service during the end of the war. The Ljungmann rifles, both the semi and full auto battle rifles were never exported except for a few "demilitarized" specimens. Indeed, great numbers of older rifles were refitted and made available to the volunteers to be used against the soviets, and more than a few pre 1905 rifles somehow ended up in the hands of the Norwegian resistance (now, how on earth could that have happened...) Btw, the rifle the Swedish settled upon after the war actually used a Ljungmann gas system using a Kjellman bolt (the firing pin assembly drives the locking lugs home just prior to firing), and even modern CG rifles use this system. Some people say they are unreliable, Personally, I've seen these weapons drowned in mud and dirt, and still work flawlessly. Like the Sako/Valmet these are designed for use in OUR terrain. The same goes for the M38, all in all a much thougher gun than any German rifle.

The only weapons Sweden did import from 1937 on, were a small number of Walther P-38 pistols, but after a few hundred specimens, the Nazi's halted the deliveries. Sweden then imported a number of Finnish Lathi pistols, before starting their own manufacture of these in 1940, eventually even exporting (read, giving them) to Finland until 1944 when my country sought peace and stepped out of the war.

The lessons learned during that war are still being used as a school book example today, during my military service I was trained in the old fashioned guerilla style warfare used by my country during 1939-40 and 40-44. One of the things we learned was to use every possible firearm one could come across on the battlefield, including the very old ones. The M94/96 and M38 are still very widely used rifles in Scandinavia today, as are Krags, Moisin nagants, Simonovs, Madsen and all types of German rifles, carbines and pistols.

The best way I could possibly describe the differences between the mausers and M38's is probably that the M38 is a "Scandinavianized" Mauser. For a stopgap model, its a very nice piece of firearm, one of the best. As a hunting rifle, it serves a better purpose anyway.

Kind regards,

Vesi

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

So Briman,
You are saying that the Oberndorf 38's should be as strong as any Swedish arsenal produced 38 or 96...right? And if this is so, do you have any recomendations re; calibers suited for this action? In other words, are there some stopping points? Some calibers considered too powerful for the Oberndrf 38 action? I guess, if the Oberndrf action is equal to the others, I'm asking if there is a general stopping point for for Swedish actions other than 94's
Vesi,
Same question to you sir, although I realize you may not share the same sentiment re: the 2 actions similarities.......but what kind of pressure is too much for the reliable safety of the weapon? (38' and 96's)

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

I'd say any caliber of equal pressure or under, but >if i'm correct< I think the 6.5 x 55 was designed on the same base as the 7 mm mauser, so probably that one could be used as well along with simular cartriges. For safety reasons I'd stick to the lower pressure calibers, and if for no other reason: I think you want a rifle that shoots pleasantly, so for that the 6.5 x 55 is a very good choice. The 6.5 x 55 is considered a medium power round by modern standards, so I'd stick to that category. Nevertheless, I've seen special wildcats -- very much like the 6 mm ppc -- being used in M38 actions, but these were well, very heavily modified to say the least (different bolt, magazine, trigger, etc.. these hardly reassemble a M38 anymore and did cost a ton of cash too) Surely, a M38 can take way more than the pressure a 6.5 x 55 produces, but is it wise? I don't think so. Having a lot of safety margin makes sence.


Kind regards,

Vesi

(uhh, oh and please leave out the sir.. I'm not that old yet hehe... me <----<<<< still a student..)

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

Thanks,
The "sir" thing is just a habit. I'm 51 yrs old but I use the "sir" moniker for anyone...especially when I'm requesting information. Never hurts.
You pretty much confirmed my reasoning. I checked out the pressure ratings for the 6.5 x 55 and poured through my loading books looking for cartridges in the same range or lower
I came up with....
.25-35 Winchester (or 6.5 X 52 mmR in your neck of the woods)
250 Savage
.257 Roberts
7 X 57
300 Savage
there's many more, but those are the ones that interest me.
And of course...even though I don't have another barrel in this, I would consider getting another 6.5 X 55 modern barrel with a sporter taper...
Hard to argue with the 6.5 Swede's accuracy, comfort and performance..
Thanks again
John

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

Yup, absoloutely.

Nope, M96 and m38 receivers are identical.

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

They all should work just fine.
Some of the earlier m94's were chambered in 7x57 to be sold to Argentina, so there is no reason why it shouldn't work in what you have.

The case rim diameter on the 6.5x55 is slightly wider than that of the other cartridges, but there shouldn't be any problems with that. You might have to tweak the feedramp and receiver rails a little to get other cartridges to feed well.

RE: Help with an old mauser.
 

Good point about the feeding issue. I can do the tweeking required for this project...but it helps toknow going into it what to watch for.