Jeff Cooper
 

I have read and enjoyed Jeff Coopers writings for a long time. I appreciate what he has done for the shooting sports. I appreciate what he has done for this country. But for the life of me, I don't understand his mentality. Coopers mentality is, if its slow and big, its good, if its super fast and sleek, its bad. I have butchered more animals than I could ever count. Every animal I harvested, I investigate the wound and damage the bullet caused. And from my 20 short years of investigated(compared to his 50 or so), I have came to one conclusion. Speed kills. Maybe its my (once bitten twice shy) with my muzzleloader experience. I did lose two deer in the last 5 years with good hits with a muzzleloader. But with a slug gun or muzzleloader, I see a big entrance and exit hole, but just don't see the lungs melted and major trama to vital organs around the impact. But with a 308 or a 270 shot at 50 yards, I see all kinds of damage. And if I do my part, I never lose an animal. I just don't understand his conclusions about killing power. Maybe things are different on human combat situations. I hope I never have to kill someone to find out, but for game, and 100 yards, I don't know why he feels the way he does.

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

You are absoutely right that big, slow bullets kill more by blood loss than anything else. In this respect, they're more like a broadhead arrow. Fast bullets do a lot of damage due to hydrostatic shock and secondary missiles as well as just the bullet path alone. But in order for a fast bullet to be effective, it must get into the vitals. In other words, penetration is important, no matter the speed at which the bullet is travelling. This means that the faster the bullet is travelling, the more important bullet construction becomes.

I am not sure at what velocity level the speed of the bullet takes over as regards killing power versus the size and weight of the bullet. But it must be somewhere over the velocity of Foster and Brenneke type shotgun slugs. I have never used the new slugs that have a MV of 1800+ FPS like the Wionchester Partiton Gold slugs, so I don't know if these are going fast enough to produce the kind of effect you are talking about.

I have had better performance on deer-size game shooting a solid bullet, whether round ball or conical, from a muzzleloading rifle than I have had from Foster style shotgun slugs. But neither kind of projectile can hold a candle to a good .270 or .30/'06 bullet!!

I have never lost a deer hit with a modern rifle bullet, nor one that was hit well with a muzzleloader using full diameter bullets. But I have had to track animals shot with a muzzleloader farther than ones shot with a modern HV rifle. They ALWAYS leave great blood trails if hit behind the shoulder, and my ML bullets have always gone completely through any animal so hit! I have lost a couple of deer I thought were hit well with a Foster slug, though!!

Like you said, things may be different in combat! Animals are killed by physiological effects only, psychology does not enter into the situation, because an animal, as opposed to a person, doesn't know how badly wounded it is! This factor was certainly obvious in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries, when "civilized" soldiers fought "savages"! An example of this is the abject failure of the .38 Colt revolvers the Army had adopted to stop charging Moro warriors in the Phillippine Insurrection. These guys didn't realize they had been killed by the .38's, and just kept on coming! When shot with the .45 Colt, however, they laid down right away!! The British had similar experiences fighting the Zulus and other tribes in Africa.

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

Jeff Cooper has the mindset that whatever he likes is the best and anything else is inferior. I find his writings interesting, but if you believe everything he says, you'd throw away all your weapons but a cocked and locked 1911 and a Steyr scout rifle.

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

Although a undeniable expert in his field, he is indeed a bit dated. While I enjoy reading his commentary, I use it a stepping stone toward the new and great, rather than accepting it as the final word.

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

diyj98, I do agree, but was trying to say it a little more soothing. He does remind me of my old great grandfather. Nothing is up for discussion, and he doesn't want your opinion, cause he already has a right one. I loved my great grandfather. Been dead for 15 years, but he did say alot of things that later in life I found out to be dead wrong. But as my great grandfather, with Cooper, there is more positive than negative.

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

Hi bigcountry,

I hope you don't take any of this wrong.....because it is certainly not meant as challenging anything you've said. I don't "worship at anyone's alter"! But I do find most of Jeff Cooper's commentaries illuminating.....and I seem to be finding the older I get.....the more I like them.

But maybe there is a difference in not just the years of experience....but the actual experience. I respect the things Cooper has been credited with...and the places he has done them. He has not only had "hands on experience" in combat....but has taken much of the world's "truly heavy and or dangerous game". Certainly much more experience in either than I have! And I don't agree with everything he says......but usually I defer to his experience, (at least in the consideration of what he has said)!

Much of my experience has been on different "deer species" in North America or Europe. And I have some considerably less experience on other species of big game around the world. And the true heavy's, elephant, rhino, etc........I have none! Part of the difference in his views may emanate because of his actual experiences!

In my experience smaller animals, like whitetail deer, tend to be more susceptible to shock from bullet trauma then are larger animals. (Unless the size of the bullet is proportionally increased to match the size of the game.) And of course, if we are shooting an animal that is ten times heavier than a deer.....it is not feasable for us to use a bullet that is ten times bigger/heavier than the one used for deer......and still maintain equal velocity, (even five or six times in size difference.....it is nearly not possible). Not in a "shoulder fired" weapon at any rate. And the bigger the animal....the more penetration will become an issue. And the less likely we will be to overcome the animal with outright bullet shock.

Slow projectiles create less tissue trauma around the bullet wound, and have less of an immediate effect.....unless the central nervous system is shut down. And even though a slow projectile of reasonable size punched through both lungs will kill slower.....than a faster projectile if all other things are equal......it will eventually kill. As a group hunters lack many of the outdoor skills of our predecessors, one of those skills being tracking. And it does become more problematic recovering wounded game....the further it gets out of our sight. And as a result of that, (and increased number of unethical hunters waiting to tag a deer "we" shot), we like our deer on the ground "fast". Which is not a bad thing. But the bigger the game.....the more important penetration becomes. Those big, slow, projectiles do kill....and kill certainly, but they seldom kill quickly!

I think Jeff Cooper is most likely a person that is reflected as "the sum of his experiences".........as are most of us! He just has a "platform" and tends to be "vocal" about it. Old curmudgeons tend to be like that!;)

Dave

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

There have been some good points made here and I expected to hear more flack against Old Cooper. Is he a bit dated? Maybe but he has always been a fan of the 308 and 30-06. Not by writing a lot about them but by his lack of being negative to them. Thats sort of a praise from Cooper. When it comes to velocity in Combat pistols, we are generally not looking at great differences. Wound channel and size is more critical than speed. The magic number, if there is one for the speed kills idea is claimed by the experts to be about 2500 fps+. Combat pistols don't aproach these levels. Therefore according to guys Like Keith and Cooper, if there is lack of velocity, then you need bullet weight and size. Velocity and big heavy bullets both kill. They just sort of do it in different ways. As someone else said here you might compare the big bullets to an arrow. There is of course some schock involved as well. The Big bullete at High speed have it all as Weatherby proved. This of course comes with a price, Meatd damage and some pretty awful recoil.
Anyone who has read Cooper for a while has most likely been offended buy something he said or an I dea he has. Thats his strength as a writer. You can bet on one thing. He won't often change his mind.:D

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

Maybe you got something there. Maybe he does really like the 308 and no writing is good writing to him. Just seems he gripes alot about magnums.

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

I think he complains pretty evenly........about nearly everything new!;)

Dave

P.S. Actually if you read alot of his writings.......he speaks very favorably about the .308 Winchester. In his opinion......it does everything needing done by a rifle......right up until he reaches for his .350 Remington Magnum.:D

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

I think most of his gripes about the magnums is that he thinks a lot of hunters try to substitute power and velocity for marksmanship and hunting skills. That is the impression I have from reading his articals. In some cases I think he is right and in some I am sure thats not the case. There was a discussion on here sometime back where someone stated that he knew some hunters that brought bigger guns out hunting everytime they failed to get a quick kill even with poor shooting. I saw that many times when I quided deer and varmit hunters. A los of good expierenced shooters and hunters that I have hunted with have admitted to me that they shoot thier magnums very little at the range. They need some extra padding or recoil shields at the range to become real familar with thier rifles. Nobody I know wants to set at the table and get pounded for hours.

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

I think that one thing that you should remember is that when Jeff Cooper was younger the bullet were not as good as they are today. Lead cores with a thin jacket if you push them at magnum speeds they would blow up. So you went with larger cal or heavier bullets. My Great Uncle who was slightly older than Jeff Cooper love his 45-70 said my dads 30-06 would of been better with 220gr load than the 180gr he used for deer, and said my 7x57 was a popgun.

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

Cooper is a large fan of the .308 after all he pioneered the scout rifle concept built upon a .308 chambering. I dont like him too much though, just the way he writes and what he writes about. Not that I really disagree with him on much it just seems to me that he is not vey open minded. While a lot of people feel like him that the 1911 or one of it variants is the best defensive sidearm out there, I feel that he should at least keep an open mind that its the best we have no though something better may come along (not to say that it has). I dont know if anything better will come along, and if i knew of something better I would have patented it already.

One thing that he said that pissed me some thing along the lines of "If you cant shoot a major caliber pistol (.45ACP) for defensive purposes then you should reduce the caliber all the way down to .22 and be the most accurate possible". Now i dont carry, but this is got to be the dumbest thing ever said. If you could say shoot a 9mm into a 1"group at 25 yards offhand, and same for a .22lr but not a .45ACP, then the obvious choice is the 9mm. Maybe he was doing it to stir up trouble then in that case i retract the dumbest thing said comment.

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

Hey James,

I for one.....remember saying something an awful lot like that! A brother-in-law....in particular!:D Though he was not by any stretch the only one like that I've known!;)

But the hunting world is full of people that won't accept the fact......that they don't shoot very well....especially when they get off the bench. And of course when "things go wrong".....it must be the equipment.....and or "needing a bigger rifle". Truth of the matter is in most cases if you are having difficulty killing deer cleanly with say a .270 Win, a .308 Win, a .30-06 Springfield, or a 7mm Remington Magnum. You should probably try a .257 Roberts.....instead of a .300 RUM! Most hunters don't want to hear it....and fewer still like to be told that from field positions they couldn't hit the broadside of a barn....shooting from the inside. But, that is what many of them "need to be told". Many still think a sling is the "thing you carry it with", (and that is all it's for)! Nuff said bout that dead horse!;)

I think Cooper is "happy with who he is".....and pretty much has decided he will say what he thinks.....and let the chips fall where they may. In his own words, "he has seen the elephant", knows what has worked for him....and in his experience.......and is little concerned with experimentation for the sake of experimentation. And he decidely has a dislike for what he considers "marketing new things just for the commercial sake of marketing". Though he recogonizes the financial realities involved with such reasoning......he doesn't agree that everything new is necessary! I figure at his age.....he has earned the right to have a strong opinion.......so the only choice left for me is to read.....or not to read!

Long live men with strong convictions.....and the willingness to voice them! (Even when they aren't always in total agreement with the way we see things.)

Dave

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

Being a native Kentuckian, I also am strong opinionated. But when I started traveling all over the world about 10 years ago, I changed my way of thinking alot. Now I still have strong beliefes but have learned to be more openminded. Just from reading these pages, I have changed alot of believes, and learned I wasn't as smart as I thought. I do believe getting older, people do get set in thier ways.

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

AK and Big Country. I think you both summed it up pretty well. He has earned the right to express his opinions. I have been accused of being opinionated as well. I don't know why. I have three of the most stuborn children on this planet but they got it from thier mothers side of the family:D.

RE: Jeff Cooper
 

Hey guys,

I think we have restumbled on an eternal truth. As we grow, (most of us at any rate), we learn to look at things from different angles, perspectives, and opinions. But I think we also have a tendency, based on our growing experience, to become "set" in some basic beliefs. I don't know if it's an entitlement ;) of "getting older". But none the less I think it's a frequent reality!

I'd much prefer to know someone that has set values, beliefs, feelings, etc........than someone always too whimsical to take a stand on issues. Now that is not the same as saying "I always agree with them".....because frequently I don't. But at least I fill as if I know where they stand, are willing to take a stand, and occasionally don't mind a "good argument" to test their beliefs! It helps keep things.....straightforward and simple. And if there's one thing I'm certain of.....anymore I like to keep things as simple as possible.:D

Dave