Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

Given the great penetrating characteristics of monolithic solid bullets (no expansion) what would be the pro and con of using them for all big game hunting?

EKM

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

I like solids for tough game like elk and bear for penetration, but for deer and antelope I like a soft nose. I use a 45/70, so wound channel isn't problem, it's wide enough. For using solids all of the time, I would say that the results of the shot would be pretty predictable, a .45 caliber hole and bullet exiting the animal, whereas with expanding bullets results might differ a bit more.

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

Pros: Dern good penetraition and even better penetration
Cons: don't need that much penetration.
not much energy transfer or shock to the vitals
copper a gun like nobodies business
And biggest con of them all. not a very good blood trail to follow. Tiny exit wound

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

I don't see a lot of pros except where a solid bullet is need to penetrate tough thick skinned and heavily muscled dangerous game.

Cons would be the fact that a good expanding bullet normally causes much greater tissue damage. Over penetration could also be a bid con where's there's a chance of shooting through one animal and into another.

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

Using a 585 nyati I see no problems using solids on any game :D

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

Except for better penetration, it's all cons!
Especially with no blood trails!

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

Well, aside from the fact that what you're talking about is pretty much against all game laws in the Unioted States, the drawback is that a small diameter wound channel produces little shock, gives little or no blood trail, and will permit a great number of thin-skinned critters to escape wounded to die unrecovered. This is the reason why they're illegal!! Reserve your solids for heavy, thick-skinned critters like tembo and m'bogo in Africa, where they are legal!![:-]

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

Small wound channels, poor energy transfer and poor shock generation -- looks like some serious downsides. Sounds like their use would require some "common sense" and some discretion and care whether or legal or not.

On the other hand though, what about folks that don't want to pony the bucks up for a bigger gun (or are recoil sensitive) for use on say, moose or elk -- wouldn't the use of solids allow them to use something like a .243 or 30-30 to penetrate in one side, through the heart, and right out the other side?

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

Im right there with every one else,
Pro-awesome penetration
Con-Unless your smashing through heavy bone, very little energy transfer to the animal.

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

Mostly cons. The few exceptions would be fur bearing animals to deture pelt Damage. The other would be the use of certain designed cast bullets which open large wound chanels as well as deep penatration. Such a bullet would be bullets cast by the LBT moulds with the long flat nose. They have been used with great success by Ross Seyfried. In middle calibers to take all different species. There is a very good atrical by Ross in rifle magazine explaining the LBT bullet moulds and some elk taken with a 366 caliber bullet of just 160 grains. Complete through shot on an elk with huge blood trail and good internal damage. These moulds were off the market for some time but are now back in production. The LBT bullets may not be the only bullet to use the long Flat nose design. Anyway cast bullets are a whole other subject and don't reall fall in the soft point or the traditional solids. I have only been into the cast bullets for a short while. As far as the expense of buying a bigger rifle goes, if one needs a bigger rifle for a given application they should probably get one rather than trying to make do with something smaller. In many models the 458 and 375 don't cost much more than the standard calibers. My 416 Ruger was the same price as all the other calibers.
For all my NA hunting I am very comfortable with the 30-06 and the 45-70. The Speer manual recomends the 350 grain RN at about 1900 FPS for the geart Bears and big moose. The 30-06 has worked fine for all the other species. The new bullets such as the Barnes X bullet and Nosler accubond and Swift A-Frame has given a new lease on life to many of the middle calibers such as the 279, 280 and 30-06. Ihave yet to try out my 270 WSM but I think it will fit right into this mix.

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

My personal experience has been that the hard cast 44 mag 240 semi wadcutter bevel base shooting around 1500fps in a ruger redhawk is more than enough for deer. I have seen it leave a very large blood trail (it was in the snow though). I have also seen it knock a good size buck off his feet. Which I have not done with any other cal..

It will lead a barrel that's for sure but I don't mind cleaning the thing. One more reason to mess with my guns.

I should add that the buck knocked off his feet was paced at 97yds. Also one of the biggest pros is that cast bullets are cheap and so I get lots of practice at the range.

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

By solids I'm talking machined monolithics or "cast" bullets that are at the absolute top of the hard cast bullets like Corbon -- the kind that slice like a hot knife through butter with no deformation.

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

On truly heavy, thick skinned, game.....penetration and lethality become nearly synomomous. The "rule of thumb"....if such a thing exist.....I believe goes something like this. Elephant and rhino....solids only. Wild bovine (in nearly all guises) first shot premium expanding, (for lung shot), backed up with all solids in the magazine or second barrel. On all other "furred" dangerous game, (great cats, bears, etc.), premium softs. For a balance of expansion and penetration. A soft will transmit shock more efficiently than any round nosed solid, and nearly any other shaped solid as well, but....only if it penetrates sufficiently to reach the vitals. There is some cross over of purpose with large flat metplats on large heavy dangerous game. (The heavier the game....as in the great bears.....the more efficiently those types of "solids" become. Because once again penetration and lethality are more closely related.) Some of the hard cast "large metplat" bullets (such as Buffalo Bore) are not true solids......as they are heat treated to upset some....but minimally. So energy transfer is trasmitted more efficiently but with as little as possible at the expense of guaranteed sufficient penetration!

And of course as was already mentioned, there are certain other instances where "solids" may be preferable. Fur bearers, medium to large calibers on small game, (ie. .38 Special kills rabbits well with no expansion......or a mid-range cast bullet load .30 caliber rifle for turkey where legal....would be but two such examples).

One other consideration in reference to the first paragraph above. With truly heavy game......elephants, rhinos, etc. Nothing fired from a human shoulder is going to overwhelm those animals with "shock" on a lung shot for instance......like a .270 Winchester does a whitetail. And nothing short of something fired with the pull of a lanyard......could. For animals that size a solid through the brain will instantly stop......and a shot through either heart or lungs will kill. But a shoulder shot elephant will die from hemorrhage and wound trauma......not by being overwhelmed by shock! On those animals lethality and penetration are one and the same!

And of course.....one other time I'd always choose a solid! When the caliber at hand is marginal for the task. A great example is the .44 Magnum in Big Bear country. The .44 Magnum with any soft point may not be certain to get enough penetration in Brown Bear territory to reach the vitals. When I carried a S&W 629 4" in Alaska I kept it loaded with 328 grain Hard Cast lead. I was not willing to gamble that I could achieve any bullet upset, (expansion), and still be certain of having sufficient penetration. Under those circumstances I compromised and settled for guaranteed penetration. The bullets I carried had demonstrated to me that they would penetrate.....period! I had shot a frozen 15" birch stump with that same .44 using 240 grain soft points. Those bullets all came apart after only 3" to 4" of penetration. The 328 grain hard cast bullets shot through the entire 15" of stump.....and were recovered about eight feet deep in the snow bank behind it. Except for the "rifling" engraved on the bullets......there was no upset. They could have been relubed, reloaded, and fired again! A .44 Magnum handgun is marginal under the best of circumstances on the great bears. And I was not willing to sacrifice penetration......for expansion!

Having said all of that.....anything on the face of the earth could be killed with a solid. But it isn't always the best choice......nor is it legal in many localities.....as was already stated as well!

Dave

P.S. As a side note......one of my "camp....and packing guns" in Alaska will be the 1895 Guide Gun SS loaded with Garrett cartridges. I would trust that rifle and load in big bear country emphatically! (As importantly.......if I have 60-80 pounds of meat, hide, or head on my back. I don't want a 10 pound rifle in my hands! Would be fine on flat surface roads and trails.....but doesn't work well at my age.....going "cross tundra"!)

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

If I am not mistaken Corbon bullets come in many sizes and hardnesses. I have never used any of them as I cast my own or buy gas checked bullets from several different sources. In checking the Corbon site there are some awfully good and expierenced hunters that us them. My quess is that they know thier stuff. Certainly better than I do. I am sure that Cooper has forgoten 10 times what I ever knew about bullets and hunting the world. I would only add that if a person does not wany to use thier bullets then they should avoid them at all costs. The opposite would then hold true for those who want to use them and have had good success with them. Seem Fair?

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

for many years African dangerous game hunters shot mostly all solids and if in the hunt they saw a very nice dik dik they shot it with the very same solids...and it was very effective. This includes a lot of plains game of all sizes taken with solids and only because that's what was in the gun at the time.

I'd still prefer my soft points for North American animals but solids would work too. We'd see a lot more pass thrus !!!

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

The title of this thread should have been "Use Solids On Everything -- All The Time?"

I started this post as a follow up on JamesB's thread “45-70 in Africa”. Things had went way off topic, and since it wasn’t “my” thread and I didn’t want to spoil a pretty cool little hunting traditions discussion that was going on, I picked up over here.
---------------------------
Some observations (in recap) from this thread….

Diyj98
“Cons would be the fact that a good expanding bullet normally causes much greater tissue damage. Over penetration could also be a bid con where's there's a chance of shooting through one animal and into another.”

JagMagMan
“Except for better penetration, it's all cons!
Especially with no blood trails!”

Eldeguello
“Well, aside from the fact that what you're talking about is pretty much against all game laws in the Unioted States, the drawback is that a small diameter wound channel produces little shock, gives little or no blood trail….”
AKbound
“And of course.....one other time I'd always choose a solid! When the caliber at hand is marginal for the task.”
“Wild bovine (in nearly all guises) first shot premium expanding, (for lung shot), backed up with all solids in the magazine or second barrel.”
------------------------

What I see here is that any cartridge/bullet combination is a trade off of sorts and it’s difficult to “have it all” although some cartridges are superior to others. A re-occurring theme against solids is the issue of "pass through" and the foreseeable killing/maiming of multiple animals. Akbound is correct in that standard procedure for wild bovine (read Cape Buffalo) is to load a soft point in the chamber and solids in the magazine.

A proper Cape Buffalo rifle is capable of launching a first strike hit WITH A SOFT POINT at a Cape Buffalo, and still be able to achieve ALL the following: more energy transfer, more wound channel, more shock, AND STILL have all the penetration needed to come up under the far side hide after passing through muscle/bone/mud-hide,etc. --- this is the triflecta, winning on all counts, firing on all cylinders. The 375’s (to a lesser degree), the 416’s, handloaded 458WinMags, 458 Lott’s, and up are capable of accomplishing this triflecta on Cape Buffalo. Solids? Practically anything can shoot solids and slice through "feet" of meat, it is no sign of power of cartridge, rather it is a credit to the bullet. [Remember Bell with the 7x57 with military AP ammo -- culling off hundreds and hundreds of elephant?]

The 45-70 with the Garrett solids, “sneaks into the club” of Buffalo Hunting, but falls short IMHO because it CANNOT effectively launch the “soft point with sufficient penetration” for a sound first strike while the Buff herd is together and the possibility of a "pass through" secondary hit on an unintended animal is at it’s highest. [If you’ve seen domestic bovine (cattle) packed into the shade and fighting insects you will recognize this problem immediately]. With the 45-70 lacking the oomph to push a softpoint where it needs to go and do what it needs to do, Pearse had to use solids in his 45-70 for his “first strike” shot --- bad dog, bad! The result were two dead buff where there should have been one. It was completely foreseeable as a likely consequence of breaking the “1 soft & balance solids” rule. I would hope the same umbrage that many of you brought up for suggested use of solids here in the USA about it being “illegal” and the risk of "pass through" shots killing multiple animals would apply to your conscious decisions in Africa as well as the USA.

If ethics are of any concern at all, then consider taking the 45-70 along to Africa for plains game (that may be some long shooting for the old girl) and skip Cape Buffalo unless you have two licenses and two trophy fees and know with foresight that doing the first strike on Cape Buffalo with a solid is a no-no. Though Pearce did not have to pay for the “error” hopefully the government game scout (gov’t enforcer) collected the penalties from the PH behind the scene and slapped his hand --- bad dog, bad!

If you are going after Cape Buffalo, then follow JameB’s advice regarding whether to "stretch" a rifle’s capabilities by using solids versus buying something more capable…

My $.05

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

"If" everyone started useing "solids" on "everything", two things would happen right away. Firts, there'd be a lot more wounded and lost game animials! Secondly, there'd be a LOT more wounded and dead hunters in the woods!!!!

Many places in "todays" woods you can see hunter after hunter sitting and waiting for deer ect.., the only thing that saves there lives is, that a lot of the bullets DON'T go through trees, and game animials or what ever else it hits!!!

What "i" want my bullets to do, is to expand "violently", and "just" give "full penetration"!! This is why i like Nosler Partitions so well. For the most part they do "exactly" what i want by bullets do do!!

Drilling Man

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

I quess I can't test it on a cape buffalo but I wouldn't bet against a 45-70 with 350 or 400 Grain Barnes X bullets. When spring gets here I am going to test some for Penetration and expansion. Boxes of wet news papers are not real scientific but gives a good comparision test between calibers. Barnes has a couple newer X bullets for the 45-70. I have been interested in the old 45-70 for many years and have shot it a lot with both Black powdes and smokless. Sorry about getting off track on the other post but sometimes when a stone wall and a brick wall come together , its best to give it a rest. I have my opinion on the 45-70 based on a heck of a lot of shooting. I know its capabilities and limitaions and have lived with them for years. I am happy to share that info but have no intentions of starting a program to get a 45-70 in every gun case in the country. I do believe in getting a bigger gun if needed. Although I may not agree on just when that need arises.;)

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

DM,

I also like Partitions a lot, quick but contolled expansion with the back half available to drive it deep, work well on elk. If I was going for heavier thick skinned game I step up to Swift A Frames --- like partitions on steroids.

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

All very good bullets. From what I have seen I think the Barnes X bullet will outpenetrate most all other expanding bullets. I have however never had occassion to try the A Frames on any rel big game.

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

I agree that Barnes X bullets are great penetrators and leave a pretty "ragged" wound channel if your rilfe has the velocity to open them up. One could run into a challenge if one is using X Bullets designed for a higher velocity rifle in a lower velocity rifle. -- say 500gr Barnes X designed for an impact speed of 2100-2600 fps in a 458WinMag or Lott or 460 and drop it into a 45-70 at say 1500fps then one is taking the bullet outside it's design specifications and it may or may not function as advertised. I noticed the "power" bullets Barnes promotes for the 45-70 don't look like the Barnes X bullets, even the pointed ones have lead showing (I assume to help them open up at 45-70 speeds).

Of course if one uses a non-spec Barnes X and they don't open up all, then one certainly has an sexy, attractive looking de facto solid. All loaded up, they would look pretty with a handful laying out along side a bulk plastic ammo box next to a Ruger No. 1 at the bench rest station. I'm sure it would make for some conversation and like with Garrett, some great penetration if that is the sole and entire name of the game.

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

There ARE tougher bullets out there than the Nosler partitions, but they also are less "forgiveing" than NP's when you are a bit "over gunned" for the specie, or when the velocity falls off a bit. In other words, the NP's have worked at a larger spread of velocities for me!!

For example: I have a Drilling in cal. 8x57jrs that i handload 200 grain Nosler partitions in. I drive the bullets just over 2,500 fps, and they easily shoot under 1" (5) shot groups at 100yds in this gun. 200 grain NP's are the only bullet, or bullet weight i shoot in this drilling, and i've hunted all over Alaska, and in some of the lower 48 states with this combo. This means that this 200 grain bullet "has" to perform in many different sizes of animials at varried velocities!!

With this load, i've shot everything from a coyote at long range, a javoilna at 30 yards, a big bull moose at 150+ yds, several deer at 50 to 200 yds, and even a "very big" blk bear at 20 yds, not to mention many other game animials!! In ALL cases the NP's performed perfectly, with "some" expansion, but still held together to make a good exit wound even at close ranges and in tough animials!!!

The "other" premium bullets i've used, have also done quite well at medium to high velocoty, but as the velicity started to fall off, or the target size got smaller in size, the bullets started acting like solids. This is NOT what i like to see a bullet do.

For me, the Nosler partitions have worked well in the the many calibers i've tried them in, and so i continue to use them. As i said in my last post, they do "exactly" what i want my bullets to do!!

Drilling Man

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

I use nosler partitions a lot as well. I love the barnes bullets but sometimes I get lazy and just plain don't feel like going through the hassel of cleaning the excess copper. You right about the partition, even if the front comes off it does its damage and penetrates very well.

RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
 

I have skimmed through and not say that it would work in every situation. So hear it goes and I'll say it is. If you are confident with your marksmenship than I don't see why you wouldnt.


E.X.#1 Head shot-No damage to meat, or antlers and drops them in their tracks.

E.X.#2 Neck or spine shots-Not much damage to meat and drops them in their tracks.


The other side to this is it may not be legal, requires very hard precise shots and it IS DANGEROUS to others.



IMO don't do it. Thats my $.05 EKM