super magnums?
 

Here's my question for those in favor of super magnums. If most of the people today claim a 500yd shot is way to far then why would you want calibers that produce tons of recoil and are exspensive to shoot?

An ultra mag isn't going to plow through tree limbs any better. You still have to hit the animal in the right spot or its wounded. And at 50yds the animal shot through the ribcage wouldn't know the difference because the bullet would zip right through just like all the rest of the fast calibers out there. Outside of penetration on animals like brown bear, I'm wondering if it just not a new fad to the public. If your going to shoot only 200yds or less why not a 458 win or 375 h&h. Those big boys are slow enough to really knock an animal down with a sledge hammer bullet.

Just curious not trying to make fun of

RE: super magnums?
 

Firearm and ammunition manufacturer's are always coming out with new products and promoting them for sale to the public. This is how they stay in business. Most of the new Ultra magnums and short mags are just calibers that were already out there repackaged. Examples the 300,338, & 375 Rem. Ultra mags do nothing that the 300,340, & 378 Weatherby mags would not already do. This is of course if you are using Weatherby ammo. The short mags only duplicate the ballistics of the 300 Win mag and the 7mm Rem mag. They are just packaged in a short action. An action that is 1/2" shorter and an overall rifle length that is 1/2" shorter and only 4-5 oz. lighter doesn't make much difference to me. So, basically it's simply a marketing twist to sale new rifles and new ammo often at inflated prices at first. It's human nature to want something new and improved even if it's not really improved just new. I have many friends that have fallen for the trap of buying and ultra or short when they already have the same caliber in a different magnum. Such as, my neighbor. He has a Winchester model 70 300 Win. Mag w/24" barrel. This rifle with 180 loads I make for him will shoot 3/4" 3-shot groups on a regular basis. He bought a Win model 70 featherweight in 300 WSM. I again produced him a 180 gr handload that is very accurate. Although, he gets about 150 fps more velocity out of his 300 Win. Mag. So, what is the point. He wanted something new!

RE: super magnums?
 

Look at the ballistics charts on the 375 HH mags, and then compare them to the 338 RUM. The Rum hits harder and is running faster with a heavier bullet than the 375 HH. Your going to pay the same amount for the guns. Why not buy something that is not to say a better cal. but is going to give you more bang for your bucks. No matter what cal. you buy you still have to be a competent shooter , and give the respect to the game in qhich you are hunting. Make that one shot kill. Just my thoughts.

RE: super magnums?
 

Even though I'm probably never going to be faced with a shot over 250 yards, my deer rifle of choice is my .300 Wby Sako. I realize it's not needed for the task, but I choose it more often than not simply because it's my favorite rifle. It's quite accurate with my reloads and because I shoot it quite often, I'm not averse to the recoil. Really, I don't think the recoil is bad at all. Anyway, I say if your rifle is up to the task (I don't recommend using a .22 rimfire for instance), then shoot what you want as long as you can shoot it well.

RE: super magnums?
 

Once the shot passes the 350 yard mark the task of making a clean kill goes proportionately higher to the shooter than the tool he is using. In fact there's few shooters than can make full use of the .30-06 cartridge under field conditions and fewer that actually do. For starters, they must be accurately (or reasonably so) to estimate the range....and in long range situations that's easier said than done.

If one wants to buy a gun to impress the folks around the campfire he ought to show up with a classic rifle such as the pre-64 M-70, or Remington's 721 series, or Savage's M99.....

RE: super magnums?
 

Cherokee, energy is the factor here. Velocity to boot. Speed does kill. There is two trains of thought here. Killing by sizzling speeds, and killing by a very large massed bullet. Both have proven to work well. Just to each his own.

Have you priced 458Win ammo lately compared to a WSM?

Superpig, believe it or not, alot of shooters out there really wanted a weatherby type round that is unbelted without an insane amount of freebore. then there was another bunch of people (alot of bench people), that wanted a short action high powered caliber. I was one of them. I have proved time and again to myself that finding a very accurate load for Short Action is much more easier than with a long action. I embrace the new offerings. Makes it fun. I mean we as Americans have the right not to buy or to buy.

RE: super magnums?
 

Cherokee. Very very good question. Vapodog. Excellent Reply. A bullet from 25 caliber on up traveling with enough velocity to hit the vitals of the game you are hunting is all that is needed for quick humane kills. The big Magnums produce much more than needed for any North American game. For those who like to have much more energy than needed, they are the ones who will buy the super cannons. Thats what keeps the gun companies going. And more power to them. Meanwhile back in the hunting fields, A good hunter who owns a 30-06 or 270 Win, will continue to take ALL North American game with no problems. The 338 Ultre mag may have more poop on paper but for the Big Bears I will take the 375 H&H over any of the hyper velocity Mags every time. Hyper Velocity on close up shots on big mean animals will over expand hunting bullets and stop penetration. In testing rifles for close encounters with Big bears found that the 458 Min Mag produced much deeper penetration than the 460 Weatherby Mag even though the Weatherby has much more ME. The same was true for the 30-06 VS the 300 Win Mag. Both examples were using the same bullets in the same calibers. They tested 35 different caliber and load combo's. The 458 Win Mag ranked number one with several 30-06 loads and 45-70 loads also in the top ten. The 12 GA with slugs also ranked in the top ten. The tests were done by North American Grizzly guides and Speer and a couple other bullet companies ballistic engeneers. It was published quite a few years back in Field And Stream Magazine.

RE: super magnums?
 

Yep, use the wrong bullet in a big magnum and you might be disappointed by the results. That's why I use Barnes bullets in mine. I tried the Swift Scirocco last year, but it wasn't up to the task. I've been 100% satisfied with the Barnes, however.

RE: super magnums?
 

Maybe the manufactors should quite trying to sell long and short range guns. They could make things very simple by selling only one cartridge (maybe 308).

Is that want everyone wants?????? I hope they keep bringing out new cartridges like they have in the past. Otherwise we would all be stuck with the 45-70, 30-30 winchesters and 30-40 Krags

RE: super magnums?
 

Good question Cherokee_Outfitters. I think the new big mags a just a fad? Maybe in the year 2024 the 45-70 or 405 winchester will be all the rage?

RE: super magnums?
 

What do ya mean, Good question, its been asked and beated like 100 times on every gun page imaginable. The only reason I even bother to answer is some people actually want to know why a fast cartridge may benefit them compared to a older cartridge. Or maybe an honest to goodness, search for knowledge. But most are just people trying to push there ideas on others. Or they are insecure cause people don't shoot what they shoot.

RE: super magnums?
 

WYOTE. No problem there. The manufactures will keep pumping out the new stuff and I will buy some of it. I have already ordered the 25 WSSM but it looks like August before they will be out. It will be equal to the 25-06 but just the lenght of the 223 and 243 Winchester Super Short Mags. I have always been a big fan of the 25's. I may look hard at the Vanguard as well as it will come out this year in 257 Weatherby Mag.

RE: super magnums?
 

So Superpig: By saying that there is no need for better tec. on new cal. . I guess that you have only one gun that you shoot everything that you hunt with . Im not trying to make you mad or start a major arguement here, but there is a high demand for different and better calibers, different bullets, powders, ect....... There is a place for everything. if we weere all the same we would only have one gun in the same caliber. Thats like saying that there was no reason for the allmighty 30-06, or the new 7mmSTW. Here is a thought . Take the two rounds that you load in the 30-06 and the 300win mag to the range. and you will find out why the 300 win mag is still around today. I own a 338Rum, and I didnt buy it to impress the guys at camp. I bought it becous I dont care for Weatherby ammo, or their rifles. cost to much money. One more thing before I go . If a 338Rum with a 250 grain Swift A-Frame factory bullet. Travles faster and Hits Harder at any range than a 375 HH mag. How does it not have more penitration than the 375HH?? Just a question.

RE: super magnums?
 

Not everyone claims that 500 yards is way to far to shoot game.A very practised shooter with the right equipment and under perfect conditions can consistantly place bullets accurately enough to provide clean kills at 500 yards.I hunt with 7mmstw's and 300ultramags and my average shot is around 200 yards but I have killed game as far as 480 yards with a few kills over 400 yards and several over 300 yards.I practise regularly at various distances out to 500 yards(several hundred rounds annually)use rifles that I consistantly shoot 3" to 4" groups with at 500 yards and use a laser rangefinder to eliminate ranging errors.The cartridges that I use provide more than adequate energy as well as less wind drift and flatter trajectory which reduces holdover at longer distances so they do offer an advantage to me.

RE: super magnums?
 

For the most part of my basis on the question is that almost all the clients that email on hunt information want to know if their old 270 or 30-06 is enough gun for elk. They always seem to be influenced by the new articles written in magazines or their buddies saying they can't kill with that small of a caliber. I know all of caliber size is strictly personal choice.

The big thing about supermags is the manufactures advertising push to say its the best. And it may be but with all the new calibers to hit the market in the last six years would take alot of money to buy and field test them all. I shoot magnums and calibers like the 270 win but the point of the forum was to see if anyone had the same thoughts as I did.

RE: super magnums?
 

Advertisers put a positive spin on ads. Nooo, say it ain't so. I think advertisers of different types have been doing that since the dawn of the oldest profession. And you know what that is.

I agree that people ask some crazy quesitons these days about what to bring on a hunt. I have traveled on a few big game hunts and know the insercurity about what to bring and what not to bring. I mean its not easy to come up 4K for a decent hunt. But I learned something very important on the last one while moose hunting in Newfoundland. Its not the caliber I should be worrying about, not the type of glass you have on your rig, not even the binocs, but more of what physical shape you are in. A guy going to Newfie in excellent shape, with a 243Win and a set of tasco binocs, has 5X more of a shot at killing a good moose than a out of shape guy with a 300Win Mag and a set of Leica Binocs. They can push on and cover three times more land, and pass up much more moose to find the one they like.

So really, as long as the gun is a high powered rifle within reason, it really is a moot point.

RE: super magnums?
 

One more thing I learned on that hunt. The lighter your gun, the better within reason. I carried a 11lb custom. Toooooo Much.

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RE: super magnums?
 

DG,

Dispute or disecting is a way of gaining public opinion. You put your two cents in right? The thing is some are into new things some like the old. And finding out why some like the new things gives you insite to the whole picture.. thanks for the post

RE: super magnums?
 

Yes but after reading further and figuring out your an outfitter yourself, I don't think you are looking for just opinions. I figure a guy like you has it already figured out on what he thinks or believes and reading posts from us isn't going to change that. And instead of being an informative post, just another way of saying, you don't like "super Magnums" and think everyone should drive the same truck you do, shoot the same gun you do, chew the same tobacco you do and who knows what else. At first I just thought you was a person in search of knowledge on what a Ultra Mag is good for.

Besides the topic has been beat to death.

RE: super magnums?
 

I guess after reading most of the reply's some have been taken offense to my question. I recently just signed up on this site and had no idea you guys had beaten this subject to death. Yes I have made up my mind on what makes sense and don't make sense. Maybe I should of wrote the guestion like what do think about the new calibers and the use of them. I personally hunt with a 300 win mag it's the gun that fits me and 30 years ago people would have asked the same question about that too. My basis behind the question is related to all the hunters that show up in camp with a new gun because it was suppose to kill better. Well 95% can't shoot the thing at all. And of course that is their faults. So in regards to beating a dead horse my apologies, but I never heard a pro comment other than being new and something to try out why a guy would want to trade in his old rifle for one. Yeah I'm curious about the new market of magnums and have researched them. But the question was writin badly and after rereading it I wanted to change it. Personally I don't care a person shoots as long as they shoot it well.

RE: super magnums?
 

That is all that really matters.There are many hunters that can't shoot their rifles well and while some of them do shoot the new super magnums, many of them shoot 30-06's or 270's .

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RE: super magnums?
 

Honestly, I rarely take my 300RUM hunting. I usually take my 270Win, or 308Win. Why? I trust them, I have loads that are rock solid for them, and they don't weight near as much as my RUM. I have been on this slug gun rut for the past year. Only thing I have killed deer with besides my bow even in rifle counties. I like testing out different things on game these days to see the effect on the wound. I mean come on, any of these things will kill.

Yea, I get a little twitch when I see an 18 year old talking about wanting a 300RUM. Then I think, why do I care. I get more aggravated at peoples new way of hunting. I have really noticed a disturbing trend, which does affect me. Kids and adults sitting over big ole baitpiles. Seems people have lost the fun of trying to predict routes of game.

As an outfitter, if people misses their game it does affect you. So in one sense I see your point. But I think these people would ahve the same outcome if they were using a 30-06.

RE: super magnums?
 

big country,

Your exactly right about no matter what rifle some people don't spend any time practicing and they miss alot. I don't really understand their reasoning of some of these people. They spend a $1000 or more on a rifle, a $300 and up on a scope, binos that cost more than the scope, a 300 plus range finder, and not to mention a gps. But did they spend more than $40 bucks worth of ammo practicing for the hunt. NO. I make them all shoot before they go out but that don't seem to help much. My name isn't wayne van zwoll so I guess they won't listen to me. So I just do my best to try and help them with what they got to work with. Sometimes I run into some really experienced people who know the whole of hunting and getting ready for the hunt.

I'm proud to say I have one rule I stand by. IF a hunter draws blood then, thats their elk wether its down right there or wounded. We can't find the elk then that elk tag is considered filled.

RE: super magnums?
 

I like your idea.If people know this in advance they may practise more or at least may avoid low percentage shots.

RE: super magnums?
 

cherokee, got to ask. Will you not help them find another animal if there is ample time in the week or however long duration the hunt is? I have met some great outfitters that will try to help you have a good time no matter what. They really have an eye out on who might come back and who probably don't. Then I have met outfitters that are looking at the pocketbook the whole time. Cutting every penny they can. They usually don't stay in business long. A good outfitter will have some common sense to evaluate certain situations differently. Like if a guy had not spotted much game, they would take that into consisderation. Or how good of a shot the guy is.

I had a guide tell me to take a shot that was over 700 yards. And considered that "my tag filled". Bullcrap, I passed. We argued about it, and he went back to camp telling everyone that I passed on a 350 yard moose. I evenually did fill my tag. My way. Reason I considered it 700 yards was my leupold was cranked up to 14 power and from top to bottom of the moose filled that little space on scope made for crude yardage estimates. Well past 500 yards. Some guides are the best hunters I have ever seen, and I test them regularly on estimating distances. Most, I just don't know.

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RE: super magnums?
 

If I told a person to shoot 400yds and it was a bad hit then that elks life is on my shoulders it would have no impact on the hunter trying for another. If a hunter shoots an animal and is wounded we will spend the rest of the hunt trying to find the animal. An obvious leg hit or muscle hit without breaking bone is pretty tough to get back up on the animal. So with all these in consideration we do all we can to make sure its a great hunt. I've spent days trying to get back up on bulls that have shot in the front shoulders some get away and some the person gets to finish off.

But I never try to get someone to shoot further than they are comfortable, it has a very low success rate. Out west a 300yd shot is not uncommon, I prefer clients within 200yds and resting solid on a rock, bipods, or tree. We hunt all the days we promised to hunt. We take the people were we promised to go unless there 5 feet of snow then it's down to the lower country.

There are alot of outfitters in the numbers game(money), amazingly enough some of these guys have lasted 15 or so years. But your right eventually they get the bad reputation. The past that reputation throughout other outfitters in the state which is really bad. Personally we don't take more than four people in one hunting camp per season. We handle it all ourselves so its a more personalized hunt. I've always went way beyond my duties to make people have a great time.

Will you not help them find another animal if there is ample time in the week or however long duration the hunt is?

To answer that question? Depending on the circumstance say gut shot, shoulder shot, broken legs.
If the shot was in capable distance of shooting, or the client begged to shoot 500yds on his own accord. Then my answer is the hunter made a bad shot and we will continue his hunt looking for the animal he hit. Most bad hits take the animals life wether its in a day or weeks later. I find it my duty to find and get the hunter back on the animal to dispose of it.
In colorado outfitters are not allowed to hunt with clients or dispatch game for clients. There have been many days I wish I could take the hunters rifle and make that third or fourth shot after the first shot hit the animal.
I will not let the hunter shoot another bull or deer if they have wounded the animal to the point of mortality. It goes against everything I am. Misses don't fall in this catagory. We all miss eventually.

We have two archery seasons, one muzzlerloader season, and four rifle seasons. Thats seven hunts. We usually book only 12 to 16 clients throughout all these seasons. That comes down to roughly 2 to 3 clients per season. And like said before no more than 4 unless its a group of the same party say 5 or 6 people that book as a party. I look at the outfitters that are booking 50 to 70 clients a year and I'm thinking thats doing your client bad. Its hard enough for one guide to successfully guide hunters to 8 to 10 bulls throughout the year. That makes ten guides for a outfitter running that many hunters. They usually only have 3 to 5 guides for that many hunters. Thats what gives outfitters a bad name. My father and I guide our hunters and if the number exceeds four then we bring in a friend that we have used in the past.
Outfitters have to work on ethics and providing great hunts because they are paid to do so. The ones that run numbers won't last forever.

RE: super magnums?
 

In colorado, your not allowed to have a guide with you while you hunt? Is that what you mean? Email me if you got time. I would like to know more about your outfit. My email is [email protected].

RE: super magnums?
 

I think I have explained that in above post. If you mortally wound an animal for bad shooting. Then I still say you filled your tag. Thats being ethical.

RE: super magnums?
 

For the past several years I have used the same outfitter and guide in NM for elk. At the beginning of the my first hunt, the guide stated that if I drew blood, he will do everything possible to find my animal. But if we fail to find the animal, my tag is considered filled. I completely agree with his position. I suggest you have a good talk with your guide BEFORE going to the woods. Tell him your effective range, and what size animal you are interested in. And carry your own range finder and binos. Most guides are pretty good at yardage estimation, but some are terrible. If you know your rifle, know the range, and have previously discussed your shooting abilities with the guide, I doubt you will have any problems. If you tell him that you will not take a shot over 300 yards, it has been my experience that the guide will get you within that 300 yard mark. Just my experience!
Good Hunting,
Hal