Bears--Got Enough Pistol??
12-10-2021, 01:25 AM
#21
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,649
I will have to disagree, of the 40+(didn;t keep count) or so bears was part of being shot, I seen many take several rifle hits and keep on trucking when NO vitals were hit!
that lead to either a lost bear or a lot of tracking at times and many times more shot/shot's, to finish them off!(again pending shooter, some guys get excited and accuracy goes out the window sadly)
I hunted with a large group of bear hunters that killed 5-7+ bears every yr for many yrs!, granted many took BAD shots at RUNNING bears
but the simple fact it, they were HIt and kept going many times, so will Not call them any less willing to take a bullet over a deer
both can run afar if they get a bad hit on them
seen many bears live for a while with 3 legs and such after being shot or injured from?? and survive
the will to survive isn't any less on bears than deer IMO!
and keep in mind there is a BIG difference in how much body you have to drive a bullet thru , between a 150 lb bear and and a 500+ lb one! add in possible pissed doff animal(as in attaching you)
which will have adrenaline a pumping and a whole different mind set than a bear wondering the woods unaware of a hunter hunting them!
that lead to either a lost bear or a lot of tracking at times and many times more shot/shot's, to finish them off!(again pending shooter, some guys get excited and accuracy goes out the window sadly)
I hunted with a large group of bear hunters that killed 5-7+ bears every yr for many yrs!, granted many took BAD shots at RUNNING bears
but the simple fact it, they were HIt and kept going many times, so will Not call them any less willing to take a bullet over a deer
both can run afar if they get a bad hit on them
seen many bears live for a while with 3 legs and such after being shot or injured from?? and survive
the will to survive isn't any less on bears than deer IMO!
and keep in mind there is a BIG difference in how much body you have to drive a bullet thru , between a 150 lb bear and and a 500+ lb one! add in possible pissed doff animal(as in attaching you)
which will have adrenaline a pumping and a whole different mind set than a bear wondering the woods unaware of a hunter hunting them!
I can assure you having personally shot 14 myself and watched around a hundred being taken, you put the bullet where it needs to be and its all over for mr. blackie!
12-10-2021, 10:59 AM
#22
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18,382
It seems like this topic is devolving into each person's personal experiences with which can arguably be different than another person's. For example, in my personal experience, hunting black bears with a 270 works well. I haven't got a bear with the non leaded ammo (TTSX) but have had very good performance with Remington's 270 Core-Lokt 130 grain. I haven't shot a bear with a pistol but am currently looking for a pistol, caliber & ammo that I consider sufficient. I don't plan on hunting blackies with just a pistol but want to have a backup pistol for when I'm field dressing deer, scouting or changing out SD cards in game cameras. At this point, I am thinking a Glock 10mm to begin with and then transition into a Ruger 41 or 44 mag. But that's just me.
I have read a lot of online information from several people who guide and/or hunt a LOT of black bear, some of them over 100 black bear kills. All of those people seem to think a 10mm, 41 or 44 mag are good black bear pistol calibers for hunting. If a black bear was charging me, I like the crumple effect of a 44 mag with heavy bullets (not JHP) but can also see the value of multiple shots from a Glock 10mm platform since I have extensive experience with Glocks in 9, 40 and 45 calibers.
In reading this topic, people are all over the map on calibers and guns. It looked like everybody is talking about black bears since grizzlies/browns would admittedly be a different subject and consideration. Most of the posts appear to be about hunting bears, not stopping bear attacks. The posts don't specify what style of hunting as in spot and stalk, using hounds to tree a bear or ambush from a tree stand, etc. Each of these methods could present a bear more switched on or not. The posts also don't list a breakdown of bears killed by pistols versus rifles. Mrbb brings up the topic of appropriate ammo but with the members who have posted, I honestly don't think any of them are using JHP ammo designed for people. Each of them is a hunter and I would bet money they used the best hunting bullet(s) available.
Mrbb mentioned many of his hunters taking running shots on bears which is kind of iffy since bears run pretty fast and most people suck at running shots (don't ask me how I know that specifically about black bears). He also mentioned many of his hunters' shots didn't hit vitals. That is also a recipe for a wounded bear or pretty much any other animal getting away. I realize mrbb has other bear experiences and obviously did not have personal control over the quality of shots taken by the group he hunted with. None of us really do. But, people who take bad shots, especially at running animals that are obviously in some kind of flight or fight response, aren't representative of or useful to those of us who plan on taking good shots. And if a black bear is running towards me, it's as many shots at the head and torso/chest area as I can manage. And if it's with a Glock, I can get off a lot of well aimed shots in a short amount of time.
RR, I am very curious to hear about each of those 14 black bear kills. Distance, rifle or pistol, ammo used and bear behavior. The blackies in my area don't want anything to do with people which is a good thing. Even the lions keep a wide berth which is good since they're not on the hunting menu anyway.
I have read a lot of online information from several people who guide and/or hunt a LOT of black bear, some of them over 100 black bear kills. All of those people seem to think a 10mm, 41 or 44 mag are good black bear pistol calibers for hunting. If a black bear was charging me, I like the crumple effect of a 44 mag with heavy bullets (not JHP) but can also see the value of multiple shots from a Glock 10mm platform since I have extensive experience with Glocks in 9, 40 and 45 calibers.
In reading this topic, people are all over the map on calibers and guns. It looked like everybody is talking about black bears since grizzlies/browns would admittedly be a different subject and consideration. Most of the posts appear to be about hunting bears, not stopping bear attacks. The posts don't specify what style of hunting as in spot and stalk, using hounds to tree a bear or ambush from a tree stand, etc. Each of these methods could present a bear more switched on or not. The posts also don't list a breakdown of bears killed by pistols versus rifles. Mrbb brings up the topic of appropriate ammo but with the members who have posted, I honestly don't think any of them are using JHP ammo designed for people. Each of them is a hunter and I would bet money they used the best hunting bullet(s) available.
Mrbb mentioned many of his hunters taking running shots on bears which is kind of iffy since bears run pretty fast and most people suck at running shots (don't ask me how I know that specifically about black bears). He also mentioned many of his hunters' shots didn't hit vitals. That is also a recipe for a wounded bear or pretty much any other animal getting away. I realize mrbb has other bear experiences and obviously did not have personal control over the quality of shots taken by the group he hunted with. None of us really do. But, people who take bad shots, especially at running animals that are obviously in some kind of flight or fight response, aren't representative of or useful to those of us who plan on taking good shots. And if a black bear is running towards me, it's as many shots at the head and torso/chest area as I can manage. And if it's with a Glock, I can get off a lot of well aimed shots in a short amount of time.
RR, I am very curious to hear about each of those 14 black bear kills. Distance, rifle or pistol, ammo used and bear behavior. The blackies in my area don't want anything to do with people which is a good thing. Even the lions keep a wide berth which is good since they're not on the hunting menu anyway.
12-10-2021, 11:58 AM
#23
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
I mentioned bears being shot at running and poor hits, to just show that bears are NOT easy or easier to kill as to deer!
nothing else, they do Not die easy, or any easier than a deer hit in like places!
bear can be very tough animals, take several hits and keep on going! as can deer when not hit in vitals!
bears when they get larger and have more meat fat and such on them to get thru to hit vitals
as for caliber, the 10 mm is a very capable caliber on bears even grizzly/brown bears(which by the way are the SAME species)
However just be known, that finding GOOD 10 mm ammo even before the shortages was NOT easy to do,a s most 10 mm ammo loaded by most ammo makers is not full loads designed for bears! there are typically only a few specialty ammo company's that even make good loaned ammo in 10 mm!
I own several 10 mm's including Glocks,(owned one since they came out with it and a few others since in glocks as well as several other Makers including a few custom built one's) the Glock 10 mm it was the side arm I carried on most of my time spent in AK back country!, due to my confidence in it with good ammo!
something else to consider in 10 mm's, is a LOT of the guns in 10 mm, can have issue's firing full loads in 10 mm, as they are typically set up from the factory for the lighter rounds,(so have lighter recoil springs in them)
there is a noticeable difference in recoil in using full load 10 mm and nostrum factory ammo you will find!
also, after yrs of having a gun shop and sold millions of rounds of ammo, and spoke to thousands of hunters over the yrs, and MANY carried a hand gun , and many DID use personal defense ammo in there carry guns, many don't know i the ammo they carried, wasn't good for bears and such!
you'd be surprised how many gun owners DON"T know that much about ammo and bullets! and I don;t mean that as a bash to any of them, just a fact I l;earned after spending so much time about hunters. shooters and guns!
yes many have huge amounts of knowledge(like many members here do) but many don't!
nothing else, they do Not die easy, or any easier than a deer hit in like places!
bear can be very tough animals, take several hits and keep on going! as can deer when not hit in vitals!
bears when they get larger and have more meat fat and such on them to get thru to hit vitals
as for caliber, the 10 mm is a very capable caliber on bears even grizzly/brown bears(which by the way are the SAME species)
However just be known, that finding GOOD 10 mm ammo even before the shortages was NOT easy to do,a s most 10 mm ammo loaded by most ammo makers is not full loads designed for bears! there are typically only a few specialty ammo company's that even make good loaned ammo in 10 mm!
I own several 10 mm's including Glocks,(owned one since they came out with it and a few others since in glocks as well as several other Makers including a few custom built one's) the Glock 10 mm it was the side arm I carried on most of my time spent in AK back country!, due to my confidence in it with good ammo!
something else to consider in 10 mm's, is a LOT of the guns in 10 mm, can have issue's firing full loads in 10 mm, as they are typically set up from the factory for the lighter rounds,(so have lighter recoil springs in them)
there is a noticeable difference in recoil in using full load 10 mm and nostrum factory ammo you will find!
also, after yrs of having a gun shop and sold millions of rounds of ammo, and spoke to thousands of hunters over the yrs, and MANY carried a hand gun , and many DID use personal defense ammo in there carry guns, many don't know i the ammo they carried, wasn't good for bears and such!
you'd be surprised how many gun owners DON"T know that much about ammo and bullets! and I don;t mean that as a bash to any of them, just a fact I l;earned after spending so much time about hunters. shooters and guns!
yes many have huge amounts of knowledge(like many members here do) but many don't!
Last edited by mrbb; 12-10-2021 at 12:20 PM.
12-11-2021, 10:30 AM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,649
nothing else, they do Not die easy, or any easier than a deer hit in like places!!
Have saw 7 stock killing bears die within 10' of POI from a lung shot with a 22 mag, deer will run 60 to 100 yards with the same shot. I have never saw a bear shot in the vitals run more than 20 or so feet.
12-11-2021, 11:28 AM
#25
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
T
Yes they assuredly do, you put a bullet the same place in the vitals of both a deer and a bear, the deer will 100% move farther after the shot than a bear, this is absolute fact!
Have saw 7 stock killing bears die within 10' of POI from a lung shot with a 22 mag, deer will run 60 to 100 yards with the same shot. I have never saw a bear shot in the vitals run more than 20 or so feet.
Yes they assuredly do, you put a bullet the same place in the vitals of both a deer and a bear, the deer will 100% move farther after the shot than a bear, this is absolute fact!
Have saw 7 stock killing bears die within 10' of POI from a lung shot with a 22 mag, deer will run 60 to 100 yards with the same shot. I have never saw a bear shot in the vitals run more than 20 or so feet.
as YOUR experiences and mine have been different and I believe we both seen a bunch of bears getting killed,
so where are the FACTS and DATA backing your views as to mine to prove me WRING!/ or are you just claiming your experiences a s WHOLE in how it works and thus a FACT to you??
Last edited by mrbb; 12-11-2021 at 11:31 AM.
12-11-2021, 01:44 PM
#26
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,649
I believe we both have different options on this subject, but since you state its an absolute FACT< where are you getting this DATA to back up this claim, on it being factual?
as YOUR experiences and mine have been different and I believe we both seen a bunch of bears getting killed,
so where are the FACTS and DATA backing your views as to mine to prove me WRING!/ or are you just claiming your experiences a s WHOLE in how it works and thus a FACT to you??
as YOUR experiences and mine have been different and I believe we both seen a bunch of bears getting killed,
so where are the FACTS and DATA backing your views as to mine to prove me WRING!/ or are you just claiming your experiences a s WHOLE in how it works and thus a FACT to you??
12-11-2021, 02:02 PM
#27
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
that isn;'t a FACT!
and I fully agree any animal hit poorly doesn't show anything other than a BAD hit
BUT if were going to claim bears are easier to kill than deer, then ,. YES< a poor hit on a bear should result in easier kill than a deer NO?/
I have tons of bear experience, in more than just hunting , I have worked with bear biologists,
I have done killing of bears in many ways too, and not just from a hunters or hunting views!
I have been part of many killings of bears from crop damage,. hunting, putting down nuisances bears, injured bears and so on! and NOT just by shooting them, either, have been part of using other means to put them down!
I will again state (IMO) I do NOT find bears any easier to kill than a deer! they have just as much will power and desire to survive as a deer does and a vital organ system that works the same way!
YES a deer MAYBE can cover more ground after taking a POOR hit, but by nature a deer is capable of covering more ground faster, due to how they can run and leap/jump
they are also a animal that is more often considered food/prey, and as such, have a habit of putting more ground between them and a perceived danger! , than a bear maybe will, , so an injured bear might NOT run as far simply , as it doesn;t feel the need to, being more or less at the top of the food chain! and not perused like a deer is!
that doesn;'t mean they die any easier!
and since this topic was some what a directed at having enough pistol for defending off a bear, and NOT hunting them,.
there is again a BIG difference in what an attacking animal has going on, than a calm one unaware of a hunter hunting it!.
I f you wish to say bears are NOT hard to kill as a FACT
go talk to some of the folks that were attached by one and see what there opinion is?
I gather it won;'t be they were easy to kill!, or none of the folks I TALKED to personally would say so!, as I have actually talked to folks that were attacked!
12-11-2021, 02:25 PM
#28
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,649
so your basing your views on your experiences just as I have, yet you claim I am wrong and you are right?
that isn;'t a FACT!
and I fully agree any animal hit poorly doesn't show anything other than a BAD hit
BUT if were going to claim bears are easier to kill than deer, then ,. YES< a poor hit on a bear should result in easier kill than a deer NO?/
I have tons of bear experience, in more than just hunting , I have worked with bear biologists,
I have done killing of bears in many ways too, and not just from a hunters or hunting views!
I have been part of many killings of bears from crop damage,. hunting, putting down nuisances bears, injured bears and so on! and NOT just by shooting them, either, have been part of using other means to put them down!
I will again state (IMO) I do NOT find bears any easier to kill than a deer! they have just as much will power and desire to survive as a deer does and a vital organ system that works the same way!
YES a deer MAYBE can cover more ground after taking a POOR hit, but by nature a deer is capable of covering more ground faster, due to how they can run and leap/jump
they are also a animal that is more often considered food/prey, and as such, have a habit of putting more ground between them and a perceived danger! , than a bear maybe will, , so an injured bear might NOT run as far simply , as it doesn;t feel the need to, being more or less at the top of the food chain! and not perused like a deer is!
that doesn;'t mean they die any easier!
and since this topic was some what a directed at having enough pistol for defending off a bear, and NOT hunting them,.
there is again a BIG difference in what an attacking animal has going on, than a calm one unaware of a hunter hunting it!.
I f you wish to say bears are NOT hard to kill as a FACT
go talk to some of the folks that were attached by one and see what there opinion is?
I gather it won;'t be they were easy to kill!, or none of the folks I TALKED to personally would say so!, as I have actually talked to folks that were attacked!
that isn;'t a FACT!
and I fully agree any animal hit poorly doesn't show anything other than a BAD hit
BUT if were going to claim bears are easier to kill than deer, then ,. YES< a poor hit on a bear should result in easier kill than a deer NO?/
I have tons of bear experience, in more than just hunting , I have worked with bear biologists,
I have done killing of bears in many ways too, and not just from a hunters or hunting views!
I have been part of many killings of bears from crop damage,. hunting, putting down nuisances bears, injured bears and so on! and NOT just by shooting them, either, have been part of using other means to put them down!
I will again state (IMO) I do NOT find bears any easier to kill than a deer! they have just as much will power and desire to survive as a deer does and a vital organ system that works the same way!
YES a deer MAYBE can cover more ground after taking a POOR hit, but by nature a deer is capable of covering more ground faster, due to how they can run and leap/jump
they are also a animal that is more often considered food/prey, and as such, have a habit of putting more ground between them and a perceived danger! , than a bear maybe will, , so an injured bear might NOT run as far simply , as it doesn;t feel the need to, being more or less at the top of the food chain! and not perused like a deer is!
that doesn;'t mean they die any easier!
and since this topic was some what a directed at having enough pistol for defending off a bear, and NOT hunting them,.
there is again a BIG difference in what an attacking animal has going on, than a calm one unaware of a hunter hunting it!.
I f you wish to say bears are NOT hard to kill as a FACT
go talk to some of the folks that were attached by one and see what there opinion is?
I gather it won;'t be they were easy to kill!, or none of the folks I TALKED to personally would say so!, as I have actually talked to folks that were attacked!
12-11-2021, 02:50 PM
#29
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,649
well anyways as far as a defense handgun, I would not back down from any black bear under any circumstances in the attack mode, hand to hand combat, whatever, with anything of 357 magnum or larger that you can shoot well and are disciplined enough to put the bullet where it needs to be under duress. have had them by the scruff of the neck when I shot them in tense situations. However I do not carry a defense handgun for a black bear, after hundreds of interactions with them have only had a couple moments that were the slightest bit concerning. have been beside a man once when he killed one with a spear as the bear backed down the tree. Black bears are not the vicious animals you read about in the papers.
12-11-2021, 03:17 PM
#30
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
if were being honest here!
and Love to know how you figure out a deer vital system, is stronger than that of bears! you must have some magical powers!
and let me ask you this, if bears are SO easy to DIE after being shot
why do so many bear hunters put so much more caution into tracking them
I kn ow very few deer hunters that ever worry about a wounded deer there tracking attacking them!
NOW something I will 100% agree with you on, is, I fully agree, a BLACK bear is no vicious animals trying to attack anyone, odds are they will be long gone before you ever even knew you were near one, and odds of being attacked by one is super rare!
and there is no magic to kill a bear OR a deer, or other living things, put a bullet into there vitals and you will have a end result of a dead animal!