you don,t need the newest rifle fad to succeed,
08-09-2020, 10:19 AM
#1
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: texas
Posts: 1,201
you don,t need the newest rifle fad to succeed,
One of the guys I've made several elk hunts in the past with that Id not even talked to in over a year,
he had along with his son, un-expectedly stopped by with his 30 something year old son,
they wanted to talk about a few hunts we made, and the son,
wanted some reassurance that what his dad had suggested in selecting a rifle and cartridge was correct.
the son , was looking at some newer 6.5mm bolt action, and that would certainly work, with the correct ammo
,but moneys tight and RAYMON had suggested he use his old elk rifle, to save money.
Id be the last guy to suggest buying a new rifles a waste of money,
but Im not a big fan of tactical rifles for elk hunts either.
and by the time he purchased a rifle and scope, he wanted,
he would be investing over $2300
I put on a pot of coffee for myself,
and he and his son, had a couple cold beers while we waited for it to brew,
While I waited ,I looked around and found some old photos, Among other things ,
I showed him some of the pictures we took over 20 years ago of his dad and an elk he had shot.
the guys dad, RAYMON, had used a Winchester lever action loaded with the same ammo that RON and I had both used in our 358 BLR carbines.
he had peep sights on his rifle, this resulted in a lighter and handier carbine,
for use in the aspens and steep slopes that adding a big scope added would not have
a great deal of elk habitat I've hunted looks like these pictures.
on that hunt and his elk was shot at about 110 yards while it trotted through aspens.
a speer 250 grain bullet over 44 grains of imr 4064 powder and a 215 federal primer
https://www.speer.com/bullets/rifle_...t/19-2453.html
sight in at 3.5" high at 100 yards your about dead on at 200 yards and about 10" low at 300 yards
his dad, had zero issues using that load in a 358 win carbine ,
and neither did RON or I with that load in our 358 caliber BLR carbines,
the reassurance and pictures, of several dead elk seemed to help RAYMONS son, a great deal.
honestly elk are not bullet proof and Id say more than 90% of the elk I shot over 45 plus years were killed at under 250 yards.
its NOT the rifle or cartridge you select,
its more your skill and consistent ability under field conditions,
to place that first shot where it belongs and a good knowledge of ELK anatomy!
Id have zero issues using anything from a 270 or 308 win or larger,
and while were discussing his dads 358 winchester, use on a past hunt,
damn near any 270-30/06, or 7mm or larger cartridge should work.
as a general rule, in selecting a decent rifle,
I personally would want, a minimum of 150 grains of bullet weight,
and at least 2500 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle
more bullet mass or velocity or muzzle energy certainly won,t hurt,
but its shot placement not power thats critical.
BTW
bullet weight in grains x velocity x velocity /450240= energy
a 358 win
250 grains x 2350 fps x 2350 fps /450240=3066 ft lbs
and its certainly a well documented and lethal elk hunting choice
its not the cartridge or rifle choice, nearly as much as the experience and skill of the guy holding the rifle,
precise shot placement is always critical to success,
and you can,t ignore physics a larger mass projectile traveling at similar or higher velocity imparts greater impact energy and damage and tends to penetrate deeper,
given equal construction.
and his understanding of the games anatomy and his rifles limitations
my late hunting partner RON used a BLR lever action in caliber 358 win for decades,
while its not as flat shooting or high velocity as a 270 win,
it certainly worked rather effectively with its 250 grain bullet on every elk he shot.
His favorite load was a speer 250 grain bullet at about 2350 fps loaded over 44 grains of imr 4064
neither guy failed to kill elk with a single well placed shot
he had along with his son, un-expectedly stopped by with his 30 something year old son,
they wanted to talk about a few hunts we made, and the son,
wanted some reassurance that what his dad had suggested in selecting a rifle and cartridge was correct.
the son , was looking at some newer 6.5mm bolt action, and that would certainly work, with the correct ammo
Howa HCR
,but moneys tight and RAYMON had suggested he use his old elk rifle, to save money.
Id be the last guy to suggest buying a new rifles a waste of money,
but Im not a big fan of tactical rifles for elk hunts either.
and by the time he purchased a rifle and scope, he wanted,
he would be investing over $2300
I put on a pot of coffee for myself,
and he and his son, had a couple cold beers while we waited for it to brew,
While I waited ,I looked around and found some old photos, Among other things ,
I showed him some of the pictures we took over 20 years ago of his dad and an elk he had shot.
the guys dad, RAYMON, had used a Winchester lever action loaded with the same ammo that RON and I had both used in our 358 BLR carbines.
he had peep sights on his rifle, this resulted in a lighter and handier carbine,
for use in the aspens and steep slopes that adding a big scope added would not have
a great deal of elk habitat I've hunted looks like these pictures.
on that hunt and his elk was shot at about 110 yards while it trotted through aspens.
a speer 250 grain bullet over 44 grains of imr 4064 powder and a 215 federal primer
https://www.speer.com/bullets/rifle_...t/19-2453.html
sight in at 3.5" high at 100 yards your about dead on at 200 yards and about 10" low at 300 yards
his dad, had zero issues using that load in a 358 win carbine ,
and neither did RON or I with that load in our 358 caliber BLR carbines,
the reassurance and pictures, of several dead elk seemed to help RAYMONS son, a great deal.
honestly elk are not bullet proof and Id say more than 90% of the elk I shot over 45 plus years were killed at under 250 yards.
its NOT the rifle or cartridge you select,
its more your skill and consistent ability under field conditions,
to place that first shot where it belongs and a good knowledge of ELK anatomy!
Id have zero issues using anything from a 270 or 308 win or larger,
and while were discussing his dads 358 winchester, use on a past hunt,
damn near any 270-30/06, or 7mm or larger cartridge should work.
as a general rule, in selecting a decent rifle,
I personally would want, a minimum of 150 grains of bullet weight,
and at least 2500 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle
more bullet mass or velocity or muzzle energy certainly won,t hurt,
but its shot placement not power thats critical.
BTW
bullet weight in grains x velocity x velocity /450240= energy
a 358 win
250 grains x 2350 fps x 2350 fps /450240=3066 ft lbs
and its certainly a well documented and lethal elk hunting choice
its not the cartridge or rifle choice, nearly as much as the experience and skill of the guy holding the rifle,
precise shot placement is always critical to success,
and you can,t ignore physics a larger mass projectile traveling at similar or higher velocity imparts greater impact energy and damage and tends to penetrate deeper,
given equal construction.
and his understanding of the games anatomy and his rifles limitations
my late hunting partner RON used a BLR lever action in caliber 358 win for decades,
while its not as flat shooting or high velocity as a 270 win,
it certainly worked rather effectively with its 250 grain bullet on every elk he shot.
His favorite load was a speer 250 grain bullet at about 2350 fps loaded over 44 grains of imr 4064
neither guy failed to kill elk with a single well placed shot
Last edited by hardcastonly; 08-09-2020 at 11:02 AM.
08-09-2020, 11:55 AM
#3
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: texas
Posts: 1,201
no ones condemning anyone or anything,
his dad simply stopped by my home with his son, who wanted to have someone with experience point out that HIS DADS old elk rifle was more than adequate to the potential task at hand.
It would be great if we all had unlimited and bottomless checking accounts and could buy any damn thing that struck our fancy, thats not reality,
and RAMON'S (THE FATHER) is all ready forking out well over $5K on this next year's elk hunt. for him and his son.
yes, the kid might want and will most likely will , eventually buy a rifle he likes, rather than use his dad's rifle..
I don,t know many of my fellow hunters that have not used hand-me-down or borrowed equipment,
especially when we were just getting started and we were younger,
finances do dictate choices, and you really don,t NEED the newest option to hunt successfully!
,
his dad simply stopped by my home with his son, who wanted to have someone with experience point out that HIS DADS old elk rifle was more than adequate to the potential task at hand.
It would be great if we all had unlimited and bottomless checking accounts and could buy any damn thing that struck our fancy, thats not reality,
and RAMON'S (THE FATHER) is all ready forking out well over $5K on this next year's elk hunt. for him and his son.
yes, the kid might want and will most likely will , eventually buy a rifle he likes, rather than use his dad's rifle..
I don,t know many of my fellow hunters that have not used hand-me-down or borrowed equipment,
especially when we were just getting started and we were younger,
finances do dictate choices, and you really don,t NEED the newest option to hunt successfully!
,
Last edited by hardcastonly; 08-09-2020 at 12:25 PM.
08-09-2020, 12:12 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
well I didn;'t take this tread as any condemning anyone on anything!
its just a tread about hunting IMO,. and options
THAT said, I do however have to admit I am ONE of maybe the RARE guys, that NEVER borrowed or used any hand me down items(grew up inc a NON hunting NON gun opening family, that didn;t support hunting all, so, I had to buy ALL my own things as money was there to do so)
NOT the flip side of Hunting IMO< is, Honestly doing IT as YOU feel fit !
Meaning we all don't like to hunt the same way and if we HAD to all do it one way, odds are most of wouldn;t still do it
and this I also gather involves the equipment we are willing to use or NOT!
I know I do NOT like flintlock black powder rifles for hunting, and odds are if that was ALL I could use/borrow or??
I honestly would PASS on hunting
and then , all the more so I THINK</fear, these days, hunting is getting to the point its all about having "X" product and gear, over the actual experience and time spent afield
with so much emphasis placed on gear and "MATURE ANIMALS"
ad in the simple mind set of SO many, where feelings are so easy hurt today, and the need to be socially popular
, MAYBE a new hunter or younger person won't want to use a perfectly fine rifle, NOT of the type THEY WANT to use!
be \it so called peer pressure like mind sets, or well, SPOILED KIDS are all over, that want everything handed to them and far too many parents are willing to give in to those kids and young adults that WHINE loud enough or long enough!
OR cry to enough people(grand parents are WAY good at spoiling kids too these days)
SO< just cause a KID wants a new rifle, isn't a bad thing and today more than ever it might BE NEEDED, to get them to hunt!
sad but true IMO
common sense doen't seem to be a strong value in many of the current generations,
looks and style/image/ matter more than things that WORK!
the world of marketing has truly warped the minds of many in today's world!
its just a tread about hunting IMO,. and options
THAT said, I do however have to admit I am ONE of maybe the RARE guys, that NEVER borrowed or used any hand me down items(grew up inc a NON hunting NON gun opening family, that didn;t support hunting all, so, I had to buy ALL my own things as money was there to do so)
NOT the flip side of Hunting IMO< is, Honestly doing IT as YOU feel fit !
Meaning we all don't like to hunt the same way and if we HAD to all do it one way, odds are most of wouldn;t still do it
and this I also gather involves the equipment we are willing to use or NOT!
I know I do NOT like flintlock black powder rifles for hunting, and odds are if that was ALL I could use/borrow or??
I honestly would PASS on hunting
and then , all the more so I THINK</fear, these days, hunting is getting to the point its all about having "X" product and gear, over the actual experience and time spent afield
with so much emphasis placed on gear and "MATURE ANIMALS"
ad in the simple mind set of SO many, where feelings are so easy hurt today, and the need to be socially popular
, MAYBE a new hunter or younger person won't want to use a perfectly fine rifle, NOT of the type THEY WANT to use!
be \it so called peer pressure like mind sets, or well, SPOILED KIDS are all over, that want everything handed to them and far too many parents are willing to give in to those kids and young adults that WHINE loud enough or long enough!
OR cry to enough people(grand parents are WAY good at spoiling kids too these days)
SO< just cause a KID wants a new rifle, isn't a bad thing and today more than ever it might BE NEEDED, to get them to hunt!
sad but true IMO
common sense doen't seem to be a strong value in many of the current generations,
looks and style/image/ matter more than things that WORK!
the world of marketing has truly warped the minds of many in today's world!
08-12-2020, 07:06 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,905
I think the trend over the last several generations would suggest that if anyone in the new generation wants to hunt with anything which can be imagined under the sun, all efforts should be made to make it happen. Unless, of course, you’re the type which enjoys seeing less and less hunters with every passing generation. Since evidence points to the fact former generations have not taken their progeny afield, these folks don’t have those “old rifles” to borrow, such they’re beholden to buying their own and learning by themselves. Personally, I have no interest in contributing to that loss of the hunting tradition, and honestly, I’d rather my son, and his children after him, would hunt and enjoy the great outdoors than not, and frankly, I don’t care if they’re using a 44mag revolver or stainless and walnut rifle (my personal preference) or a laser blaster...
Last edited by Nomercy448; 08-12-2020 at 07:13 PM.
08-13-2020, 07:12 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,693
Well, they did ask for advice and a person should give the advice they believe is best based on their experience and knowledge. If the son is going to hunt elk in heavy timber like hardcast's pictures, the advice could be spot on. If the son is going to hunt in more open country, the son might be better off with a different rifle. Since we don't know where the son is going to hunt elk, it's hard to say. Logically, I would expect the son to hunt where his dad hunted and possibly even with his dad but that may not be the case here. Hard to say without knowing more.
I'm curious if the son already hunts other animals such as deer or bear and if so, what kind of rifle he already has. If he's starting elk hunting at 30, he may not hunt elk that often and could maybe use a rifle he already has or his dad's 358. I get that he wants a new rifle just for elk hunting and have bought a few myself for just that purpose. If he has the disposable income to plop down on a fancy new rifle, go for it. If money is a little tighter due to the corona virus economy, then maybe use a rifle he already has or his dad's rifle this year. Putting a purchase off a year due to financial reasons isn't the same thing as not buying it.
I'm curious if the son already hunts other animals such as deer or bear and if so, what kind of rifle he already has. If he's starting elk hunting at 30, he may not hunt elk that often and could maybe use a rifle he already has or his dad's 358. I get that he wants a new rifle just for elk hunting and have bought a few myself for just that purpose. If he has the disposable income to plop down on a fancy new rifle, go for it. If money is a little tighter due to the corona virus economy, then maybe use a rifle he already has or his dad's rifle this year. Putting a purchase off a year due to financial reasons isn't the same thing as not buying it.
08-13-2020, 07:21 AM
#8
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18,382
It's his money. Let him spend it how he wants to. He asked for advice and got it. There shouldn't be any kick about that. I'm not a latest greatest kind of hunter but I still find myself changing gear often or upgrading it as needed. This son probably needs to pick a rifle and go hunt with it. After he hunts a season or 2, he may change his mind on what rifle to use and he may not. It's more important for him to go out and hunt instead of hanging up on a particular rifle or not. Just my unsolicited .02. 
