Nomercy448

I would challenge that the above observation is not evidence that dropping prone and shooting a coke can at 100yrds is difficult, but rather it is evidence that most gun owners and hunters you hang around simply aren’t shooters, trained or practiced.

My counterpoint is found in the world of Precision Rifle Competition. The average competitor at any given match has been competing for less than a year, and has fired less than 5 matches. The “average shooter” here is exactly that, just an average guy/gal. They are just dudes/chicks, not sponsored or professional shooters. The “coke can” game described above is effectively the first shot of almost all stages - start standing, move to position and engage a target. EXCEPT - we only allow a MAXIMUM of 2moa targets for prone stages, and only 3MOA for positional stages (firing off of obstacles, typically only a single support point). The first match for a lot of folks goes terribly - they’ll either miss fast or hit slow, which means they run out of time and have their unfired shots counted as misses. By their 3rd match, the average shooter has the swing of things, and I would challenge that the evidence of match scores and times supports that the average shooter - the average weekend warrior dude who comes out to shoot - would not struggle dropping prone and engaging a coke can at 100yrds in 10 sec or less.

As direct evidence, we shoot standardized stages with a shot timer as tie breakers at every match. The most common is the Skills Barricade: start standing at port arms, run to a barricade (4” thick) and engage a 10” circle at 400 yards (2.38moa) with 2 shots from 4 positions. This target is considered “big,” because the stage is designed as a true race. Again - 2.38moa at 400 yards is considered BIG when firing from a barricade, let alone prone. At the match I shot this weekend 60 out of 155 shooters hit all 8 shots, with an average time of 57.67 seconds. 100 out of 155 hit 7 out of 8 shots, and the average time for all 155 shooters was 59.67 seconds. That’s doing TWO coke cans instead of 1, clearing both in under 15 sec, and repeating 4 times back to back. Which is pretty typical - time to first shot is typically under 10 sec, and follow up transitions are typically under 5 sec. The fastest shooter of the day was 30.81 seconds. The Average score on that stage was 6.7 impacts out of 8, with an average time of 59.67 seconds, the mode shooter (actual dude in the middle) hit 7 of 8.

Again - the average of these are just dudes/chicks, but 2/3 of them managed to hit 7 of 8 targets relatively slightly smaller than coke cans in under a minute, moving through 4 positions balancing on a barricade, and far enough out to have wind exposure...

A few MINUTES spent chatting and offering some constructive advice, followed by a few sessions practicing the new skills is all that stands between “never shot a rifle before” and success on a coke can at 100yrds.

mrbb

well I will also add this
and its in part to me being older and well with many heath issue's

but I don't think I could drop into a seating position alone in 7-10 second
never mind get set up for a shot anymore , HAHA
and I have millions of rounds under my belt shooting in all platforms, from competition and I know I am or WAS a way above average shooter based on the accomplishments I have made and the never ending desire I had to always get better at things!
I am now at the age and stage in life, I am NEVER in any rush to make a HUNTING shot, I have the skills to make longer shots needed if NEED be, I don't need to fill any tags, I take shots I ONLY know I can make!
the impulse to rush a shot, or take a shot that one maybe doesn't have the skills to make, is the difference IMO< between a well seasoned hunter and shooter and knowing when things are NOT right and to NOT take the shot

all the words types in the world will never make up for experience and human emotions, many time over power logic when excitement is in play
Practice and exposure to things,c an HELP some, to counter balance excitement

but honestly, the MASS number of hunters have ZERO desire to make the effort IMO to get to this point!

YES some to, and many of these like minded folks are the folks that spend time on forums like this, TRYING to help others and offering advice, due to there both experiences and well, desire to see things get better!

but honestly
few will make the efforts, and the FACT that hunter numbers are dropping, sort of sadly proves this!

people today sure seem like suckers for marketing and wishing to OWN weapons that look movie like and or THINK they can buy "X" item and it will magically make up for lack of practice!
and to be honest , in some ways it can,
having better items can HELP make a rookie shoot better, like it or not, its also a fact
equipment has gotten better, thus making shots easier

just look at what Crossbows has done to archery hunting!
the need to develop form and spend LOTS of time practicing to be GOOD with a vertical bow, is now almost a dying side of archery hunting with X bows taking over,WHY<
its due to there is little time or practice needed
sight in, check zero and MOST call that GOOD ENOUGH, and for MOST it is!

like any hobby or ? you will always get out of it what you put into it, some will make the effort to be better than others
but the masses are just happy knowing basic's
and something many don't know or maybe r realize!
Many LAW enforce cement folks, have very LITTLE experience in shooting!
this always shocked me when I did work with depts! and again gun sales to them!
some are very happy JUST meeting what is required and stop at that level!
and there lives can maybe depend on it,
so to expect HUNTERS to go far and above LOL

jeepkid

Bragging about their "one hole" rifle is pretty much the norm for Creedmoor shooters.

bronko22000

Sounds like someone peed in your cheerios kid! I'm guessing you don't own a CM. I currently have 2 rifles that will shoot 1/4 MOA. My Bergara 6.5 CM and my Savage 16 in 7-08. I can't recall the number of different chambered rifles I shot without sitting down and counting them. A lot of it has to do with the shooter but these rifles are out there and they are not custom. Sometimes you get lucky. Some shooters don't take the time to find the rifle's best load and still others don't have reloading capability. As I sit here typing this I do recall another "one hole" rifle I owned that I didn't state in my earlier posts. It was a horribly ugly H&R Handi Rifle in .223 with a heavy bull barrel that I swear the exterior was finished off with 80 grit sandpaper. The butt stock was extra proud on the wood. Probably 1/4" all around the receiver and the trigger was rough and gritty. But the darn thing could shoot.
I was shooting at a range in Florida when I lived there and the range was pretty full so I just continued shooting until the RO called cease fire. As I sat there waiting for him to walk by to check the firearms for being safe he asked me how I was doing. (I believe he was being sarcastic because of my ugly rifle.) I told him to see for yourself and he looked through the spotting scope. On the 100 yard target centered on the bull was about 1/2" hole. He asked how many shots were in that group and I replied about 15 or so. I do believe he was mumbling and shaking his head as he was walking away.

hunters_life

I never saw "pretty" make a better shooting rifle Mr. Bronko. As was stated way back up there somewhere, 90% of rifles out there will out shoot 90% of the shooters wielding them. I am nowhere near the shooter the old man was and Alex, my little sister, is probably 20-30% better than me as well. But there have been times with several of the old mans builds I could eat up a bull at 200 yards off the bench. But he taught all of us reloading before he really had us on triggers extensively. His motto was "a great shooter always knows what the hell he is shooting inside and out". Other than 9mm ammo, I haven't bought factory ammo in many years and even the few occasions I did, I only did so to have some fire formed brass and didnt feel like doing COW fills to make fireformed.

Redfish6

Very glad that I stumbled onto this forum.
Experience and wisdom showing in much of what I read, Mrbb’s reply no.12 was particularly encouraging.
looking to take the “coke can practice challenge” as soon as ambient temps get below sweltering.
I also like that some of you guys aren’t shy about your faith.

Question: my newly acquired and unfired No.1, has a 64 oz trigger. My only other No. 1, purchased in 1980, came from the factory with a much lighter trigger (the lightest of any rifle I own) though I have not measured.
My gun Smith here in Albuquerque let me “test” a set trigger on one of his rifles that was below 3 lbs on the top end and much closer to my old No. 1, that has been my go to hunting rifle these past 40 years.
Considering replacing the factory trigger on the new gun - your thoughts?

Nomercy448

I can’t think of any of my rifles which have pure factory condition triggers. Either aftermarket or tuned, all of my triggers get reworked. If a trigger design can be made to safely fall under 1lb, I will have it so. For designs which cannot be, I tune them to the lowest possible safe weight.

Other than my Service Rifle triggers, required to be 4.5lbs, none of my other Rifle triggers are so heavy. The rifle I have hunted primarily the last 2 seasons has a 6oz Trigger.

Redfish6

Thanks Mercy - IF I pursue replacement for the factory trigger on the No.1 can you give me some reasonable options?

Assuming accuracy of this rifle will be suitable for hunting, (primarily elk and less often mule deer), and having safety as my top priority, are there replacement triggers that can get me to ~2.5 lbs, maybe a little less? I’ll test the (what’s the correct word? force, weight, tension, pull?????) of my old faithful No. 1’s trigger and re-ask the question.

For hunting application does a set trigger offer much advantage.

sorry for the rambling - anxious to learn.
adios

Nomercy448

The factory triggers can be improved slightly, fine tuning, but replacement is really the “big knob” to turn if you want to improve the No.1 trigger.

I’m not sure anyone is still making set triggers for the No.1’s. I know Canjar quit around 10yrs ago, and I recall hearing around 5yrs ago that Kepplinger had quit. I’m not even sure Moyer is still making theirs - which wasn’t a set trigger, but rather a remake of the original No.1 triggers with adjustable sear engagement.

Jard and Brown/Eabco still offer No.1 triggers. These both are replacement triggers, similar to the Moyer which offer all 3 adjustment screws, but also with slightly varying geometries among the different pull weight models to improve leverage. Of course, the downside of the 3 screw model is the apparent ability, but realistic INability to control the sear engagement as a tuning point for a field rifle. For bench only, sure, cut your engagement down to 8thou and have a trigger which feels like a glass rod cracking instead of breaking... but risk slipping your sear if bumped in field use. But better is better, so personally, I’d probably buy the lightest weight offered in the Brown trigger from Eabco over the Jard, set it up how I wanted it for my use, and live happy.

MudderChuck

I shoot better using a set trigger. A set trigger reduces one variable into the list of things that can go wrong with a shot. Most of my set triggers are double-trigger sets, one to set the trigger, and the other to fire. The trigger used to set can also be a firing trigger if you pull past the click aways. My unset firing trigger is really smooth and a good trigger all on its own. My set trigger will go off with very little pressure, I mean about the same pressure you would use if you wanted to touch your eyeball. I use the unset trigger when stalking, I wouldn't trust the set trigger.
Just my experience I also have push the rear of the trigger to set triggers (single trigger), they IMO are less flexible and maybe more dangerous than double trigger set trigger.

When I switched over to set triggers I gained maybe 1/2 MOA. Best guess is set triggers reduce the tendency to tense a little when pulling a trigger, they make a shot more of a surprise. And it is also likely reduce the possibility of slightly moving the rifle with the trigger pull. I've had some good laughs lending my rifle at the range, everybody who has shot it are surprised and/or shocked when it goes off.