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Nomercy448 02-06-2020 07:09 AM

Military selections based on Hague Convention requirements, deployed in the context of a battlefield, have very little to do with non-restricted civilian selections, deployed in the context of defensive shootings. Expanding bullets, as a class in total, are proven superior stoppers than ball ammo.

Erno86 02-06-2020 09:38 AM

Shooting roundball: I have noticed that my long slide 45 acp, displays more "umph" against reactive targets --- including a bigger hole --- than a lesser round like the 9mm roundball.

Even though it's banned in certain competitions: My Kimber tungsten guide rod...goes a long way in controlling recoil, with my long slide in 45 acp --- It also gives it a better balance.

elkman30 02-06-2020 10:54 PM

So you carry to protect yourself against these reactive targets?

hunters_life 02-07-2020 05:25 AM

I hear those evil silhouette paddle targets can be quite deadly if not oiled properly.

Valorius 02-07-2020 07:22 AM

Legacy wise- 9mm

21st century wise, especially with the introduction of Speer's Gold Dot JHP in the caliber- 5.7x28mm.

Valorius 02-07-2020 07:23 AM

I think 99.9% of us would be absolutely fine with any of the excellent modern .380's on the market. That is what I carry.

CalHunter 02-07-2020 04:47 PM

This is going to throw a little gas on the discussion fire so to speak :D but, I was at a local rancher's spread who raises Charolais cattle this morning. I was there to watch the slaughter and field dressing of a steer that I had bought a half interest in. 1250 pounds on the hoof at a year and a half old. Yes, these cattle grow up big. Anyway, the butcher used a .22 LR in a rifle (avg length barrel, prolly 18-22" or so) to dispatch the steer with one shot to the front of the head, midway between the eyes and where the horns would be. A single shot and that steer fell to the ground and was DRT.

I am NOT advocating that anybody carry a 22 LR for CCW or self defense. However, when you read the article NM linked, it's not so far fetched that a .380 was able to get the job done half of the time or so. I am not advocating anybody carry a .22LR for self defense/CCW unless that is all you have (feel sorry for anybody in those shoes). I was carrying a .45 CCW this morning btw. I guess what I am saying is carry what you feel most comfortable with but NM's points are still valid. If anything, they reinforce the importance of shot placement and the fact that caliber cannot make up for poor shot placement. I would never tell somebody not to carry what they feel comfortable with and neither IMHO is NoMercy448. What NM is saying, though, is an attempt to spur some discussion about caliber effectiveness and the fact (as born out by the linked study/paper) that a person can successfully defend themselves with a .380, 9mm, 40 or 45.

If you wanted to take away anything from the discussion, it should be that pistols are still only effective up to 60% of the time; shotguns and rifles are effective about 80+% of the time and nothing beats using good cover, good tactics and bringing several of your friends who also carry guns. :D As always, YMMV and it is your rear end that you're betting on.

Oldtimr 02-08-2020 09:05 AM

When a .22 rimfire enters a skull, more than likely it will run around the inside of the skull a couple times doing a lot of damage, however I would only carry a .22 handgun for self defense if I had no other choice available. btw, many many deer were and are shot at night with a light using the ,22 rimfire long rifle round.

grizzly 2 02-08-2020 08:12 PM

One point that has not been made yet is diameter of the bullet, expanded or not. There is no arguing that a close shot next to an artery or a major nerve grouping might not cut or damage that sensitive spot as a 9mm and miss, whereas a .45 could. That could be the difference between you being shot or stabbed or not. The ability of a round to penetrate deep is another consideration. In that case, statistics mean nothing. Actual hole size or depth of penetration could mean everything. That's why some like to use larger broadheads than smaller ones. That's why bigger IS better if your proficiency is basically similar. Only you can find that out. I know that I'm faster on multiple targets with a 9 than a 45 in similar guns. How much does that matter if only one or two shots are needed? We can't know that ahead of time. I also know the 45 makes a larger hole which may or may not matter. To the center of a lung it won't matter. To the extreme edge it will matter. It could save your life if you can handle it. There are so many variable to consider. Many new shooters are obviously better off with less recoil and muzzle blast. Many are better off with a medium sized firearm than a smaller or larger one. It pays to take the time to find all this out for yourselves and only use statistics as another guide in making your choices.

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