Needing advice on new gun not grouping
08-23-2019, 07:41 PM
#11
Typical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 988
Completely agree with everything Nomercy448 stated. Especially the part about ditching the lead sled garbage. Seen and heard about way too many stocks cracked from those things. Stocks are designed with your shoulder absorbing recoil in mind, not banging to a dead stop. And also as he stated, if you are truly printing .5" at 100 then it isn't barrel or loads. It's optics and shooter.
08-24-2019, 10:11 AM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Marriottsville, Maryland
Posts: 1,058
Target shooting for groups...I prefer using Mountain Plains Data Targets from Mountain Plain Industries; that I order from Sinclair International. They say the blue target color is more pleasing to the shooter's eye --- And I agree, since I don't like using red or orange colored targets.
Sinclair also sells a fine line of pedestal rests. I have a 12 pound pedestal rest from Hart Custom Rifles, while using a rear rabbit ear bag (bunny ears on rear bags are too small for my benchrest rifles).
I also use an F1 bipod for shooting prone.
I've filled my rear bag with #9 lead birdshot...which is illegal to use in some competitions.
You can also buy "heavy sand" for shooting bags from Hart Custom Rifles.
http://www.hartcustomrifles.com
It's easier to inflict a "scope eye" injury from a Lead Sled, if the shooter is not seated, and using a semi-squat while leaning over the rifle.
http://www.sinclairintl.com
Sinclair also sells a fine line of pedestal rests. I have a 12 pound pedestal rest from Hart Custom Rifles, while using a rear rabbit ear bag (bunny ears on rear bags are too small for my benchrest rifles).
I also use an F1 bipod for shooting prone.
I've filled my rear bag with #9 lead birdshot...which is illegal to use in some competitions.
You can also buy "heavy sand" for shooting bags from Hart Custom Rifles.
http://www.hartcustomrifles.com
It's easier to inflict a "scope eye" injury from a Lead Sled, if the shooter is not seated, and using a semi-squat while leaning over the rifle.
http://www.sinclairintl.com
Last edited by Erno86; 08-24-2019 at 10:42 AM. Reason: added a sentence
08-25-2019, 10:42 PM
#13
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 18
I agree with the above, I would try different loads, and different bullets, till you find what the rifle realty like at distance, just cause one likes things close does;'t mean they like it far out there seem this many many time over the yrs!
I also would eb inspecting all things too, bedding, trigger, scope mounts and even barrel crown
I would also be using a chronograph your shot strings and see if there is any correlation to ones that go of and the speeds in them as to those that group better!
if your reloading and I have NO clue your experience lever
what are your steps in doing so
how picky are you getting on things, you weighting every charge, every head, every CASE, are you sorting brass out by case weight?
how about primer pockets?
when you get real serious about long range shooting its a LOT of the small details that make the difference, in both tight groups and or misses and larger groups!
I dont' think I would be waiting 15-20 minutes between shot strings either, your getting more cold barrel like start ups
I would do strings of 5 or 6 shots, then cool down and repeat(well pending air temp that is, if your firing away in 90's or higher, , this alone might be the issue?
I also am NOT a fan of lead sleds at all for accuracy !
learn good form, and breathing and some GOOD rest, and that is all one should need to do so
if recoil bothers you(and take with a grain of salt no offence meant), maybe you should be using a smaller caliber?, be adding a muzzle brake or like option to tame some to your liking better!
I have 30+ yrs of shooting 1,000 yards with 30 cal and larger in matches and thousands of rounds in practice and for fun!
recoil doesn't bother me me till I get into some real big bores and then still need a bunch of rounds to get me(owed a few .50 BMG bolt actions and semi shoulder rifles too LOL
so I get recoil, and to some it does effect them a LOT more than others
I also would eb inspecting all things too, bedding, trigger, scope mounts and even barrel crown
I would also be using a chronograph your shot strings and see if there is any correlation to ones that go of and the speeds in them as to those that group better!
if your reloading and I have NO clue your experience lever
what are your steps in doing so
how picky are you getting on things, you weighting every charge, every head, every CASE, are you sorting brass out by case weight?
how about primer pockets?
when you get real serious about long range shooting its a LOT of the small details that make the difference, in both tight groups and or misses and larger groups!
I dont' think I would be waiting 15-20 minutes between shot strings either, your getting more cold barrel like start ups
I would do strings of 5 or 6 shots, then cool down and repeat(well pending air temp that is, if your firing away in 90's or higher, , this alone might be the issue?
I also am NOT a fan of lead sleds at all for accuracy !
learn good form, and breathing and some GOOD rest, and that is all one should need to do so
if recoil bothers you(and take with a grain of salt no offence meant), maybe you should be using a smaller caliber?, be adding a muzzle brake or like option to tame some to your liking better!
I have 30+ yrs of shooting 1,000 yards with 30 cal and larger in matches and thousands of rounds in practice and for fun!
recoil doesn't bother me me till I get into some real big bores and then still need a bunch of rounds to get me(owed a few .50 BMG bolt actions and semi shoulder rifles too LOL
so I get recoil, and to some it does effect them a LOT more than others
08-25-2019, 10:47 PM
#14
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 18
Just getting into long range shooting myself (I don't even have my rifle yet. Its waiting at my local shop til I get home) and there is so many things you can do. By stating all the bullets you're using I assume you're reloading.
The first thing I would do, if you have a chronograph is to use the Satterlee method. If you don't have a chrony then try the OCW method. You can find out how by searching on line. Also, read my thread on OCW in the reloading section. Nomercy has some excellent advice which I am going to do.
PS: I'd start using either of these methods seating the bullets .010" off the lands if your magazine will accept them.
The first thing I would do, if you have a chronograph is to use the Satterlee method. If you don't have a chrony then try the OCW method. You can find out how by searching on line. Also, read my thread on OCW in the reloading section. Nomercy has some excellent advice which I am going to do.
PS: I'd start using either of these methods seating the bullets .010" off the lands if your magazine will accept them.
08-25-2019, 10:52 PM
#15
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 18
If your rifle shoots nice .5" groups at 100 that is not far different than your 1.5" groups at 200. It sounds as if the rifle is doing it's part well enough. No offense intended, but perhaps it is time to put the Lead Sled away and focus on technique. 200 yards is still fairly close range so shooting the different methods (Satterlee, OCW, ladder, etc.) will probably not provide you with really useful answers.
08-25-2019, 11:18 PM
#16
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 18
I’m driving to a rifle match right now, and would have some follow up questions, but I’ll be brief here:
First: I’ve been instructing new riflemen for a long time, and 99% of the time when a shooter talks about small groups at 100, and the wheels coming off by 200yrds, it has nothing to do with the rifle or load. The target and aiming reference is half as big, mirage warp is 4 times as bad, and every 1/10th inch of shooter wobble is doubled (recall here - your crosshair width at 200yrds is likely a half inch in itself). Unless you double your target size or double your scope magnification, dollars to doughnuts you’re simply not firing as consistent of POA at 200.
So let’s talk briefly about “what it ain’t,” because lots of folks in your shoes will start looking down rabbit holes and ignoring the real problem in front of them. You’ll do yourself a favor to focus on the most likely issue first.
• It ain’t instability. There’s no feasibility for a 300win mag load in this weight range to be sufficiently stable at 100yrds and shooting 1/2” groups, but destabilize by 200. If it’s over spun, it’d come apart by about 30yrds, if it’s underspun and unstable by 200, it wouldn’t be shooting 1/2” groups at 100.
• It ain’t bad bedding. Bad bedding would present itself at 100, not only present at 200, so you wouldn’t see 1/2” at 100 and 4” at 200.
• It ain’t inconsistent velocity ammo: 200 is not far enough for velocity spread to promote substantial vertical dispersion in the groups.
• Clean bore variability: although it is exceptionally silly to clean between each shot or each group for any other reason than breaking in the barrel (where you’re not really shooting groups anyway), again, if it WERE this you wouldn’t be shooting 1/2” groups at 100yrds. Cleaning does invite variability, but it wouldn’t be range selective. You wouldn’t see 1/2moa at 100 and 2moa at 200. So stop cleaning between groups, or shots, but that’s just to protect barrel life and save time. It won’t fix this 100/200 issue.
Ditch the Lead Sled. It’s about as valuable as a clap factory - nothing but bad happens when you go there.
If you’re really shooting 1/2” groups at 100yrds, then slipping out to 4” at 200yrds with the same load in a 300win mag, 90%, it’s simply inconsistent POA. Pick up a higher magnification optic, or better still, pick up some targets which are more friendly for 200yrd shooting. I strongly prefer shooting diamond shaped targets on square grid backed paper (such as the Shoot-n-c 5 diamond targets). Cutting a circle isn’t nearly as simple as cutting a diamond, the feedback against the reticle with a diamond is extremely fast, whereas you can float around a 2moa circle target a long ways before your eye catches it.
*Note: everything above is predicated on the veracity of the same loads in the same rifle and same optic, shot by the same shooter in the same support and conditions, delivering truthful 1/2” groups at 100yrds and 3-4” groups at 200yrds. If you’ve shot ONE 1/2” three shot group ever with the rifle at 100yrds and the rest are 1.5” at 100, then we’re not talking about anything real here. So everything I posted here is trusting this isn’t another internet sharpshooter with one 3 shot group which went 1/2” and then we hear “it’s 1/2moa all day if I do my part.” If you can set down at the rifle and shoot 5 groups of 5 shots into 1/2” at 100, but then print 5 groups of 5 shots at 200 as big as your palm, then it’s your target and optic.
First: I’ve been instructing new riflemen for a long time, and 99% of the time when a shooter talks about small groups at 100, and the wheels coming off by 200yrds, it has nothing to do with the rifle or load. The target and aiming reference is half as big, mirage warp is 4 times as bad, and every 1/10th inch of shooter wobble is doubled (recall here - your crosshair width at 200yrds is likely a half inch in itself). Unless you double your target size or double your scope magnification, dollars to doughnuts you’re simply not firing as consistent of POA at 200.
So let’s talk briefly about “what it ain’t,” because lots of folks in your shoes will start looking down rabbit holes and ignoring the real problem in front of them. You’ll do yourself a favor to focus on the most likely issue first.
• It ain’t instability. There’s no feasibility for a 300win mag load in this weight range to be sufficiently stable at 100yrds and shooting 1/2” groups, but destabilize by 200. If it’s over spun, it’d come apart by about 30yrds, if it’s underspun and unstable by 200, it wouldn’t be shooting 1/2” groups at 100.
• It ain’t bad bedding. Bad bedding would present itself at 100, not only present at 200, so you wouldn’t see 1/2” at 100 and 4” at 200.
• It ain’t inconsistent velocity ammo: 200 is not far enough for velocity spread to promote substantial vertical dispersion in the groups.
• Clean bore variability: although it is exceptionally silly to clean between each shot or each group for any other reason than breaking in the barrel (where you’re not really shooting groups anyway), again, if it WERE this you wouldn’t be shooting 1/2” groups at 100yrds. Cleaning does invite variability, but it wouldn’t be range selective. You wouldn’t see 1/2moa at 100 and 2moa at 200. So stop cleaning between groups, or shots, but that’s just to protect barrel life and save time. It won’t fix this 100/200 issue.
Ditch the Lead Sled. It’s about as valuable as a clap factory - nothing but bad happens when you go there.
If you’re really shooting 1/2” groups at 100yrds, then slipping out to 4” at 200yrds with the same load in a 300win mag, 90%, it’s simply inconsistent POA. Pick up a higher magnification optic, or better still, pick up some targets which are more friendly for 200yrd shooting. I strongly prefer shooting diamond shaped targets on square grid backed paper (such as the Shoot-n-c 5 diamond targets). Cutting a circle isn’t nearly as simple as cutting a diamond, the feedback against the reticle with a diamond is extremely fast, whereas you can float around a 2moa circle target a long ways before your eye catches it.
*Note: everything above is predicated on the veracity of the same loads in the same rifle and same optic, shot by the same shooter in the same support and conditions, delivering truthful 1/2” groups at 100yrds and 3-4” groups at 200yrds. If you’ve shot ONE 1/2” three shot group ever with the rifle at 100yrds and the rest are 1.5” at 100, then we’re not talking about anything real here. So everything I posted here is trusting this isn’t another internet sharpshooter with one 3 shot group which went 1/2” and then we hear “it’s 1/2moa all day if I do my part.” If you can set down at the rifle and shoot 5 groups of 5 shots into 1/2” at 100, but then print 5 groups of 5 shots at 200 as big as your palm, then it’s your target and optic.
i care about is making ethical shots on animals. I fully understand I will only be able to shoot as far as my skills allow. I live in Iowa and don’t know any gun smiths, so that’s why I started here by maybe knocking out a couple of the things I’m doing wrong.
I will be ditching the lead sled, I simply thought this would be taking the human error out but guess not.
And what you said about the diamond shape targets makes a lot of sense to me, I do feel I could be more precise with picking the spot. And my scope is a 3-15 power. Do you think I need more power than that?
And I guess when I said my guns shooting 1/2 moa that was the first few times I was out shooting it, never really went back to shooting 100. I was just frustrated I couldn’t do worth a crap at 200, and that’s where I’ve been stuck scratching my head. I’m sure 90% of it is me. I need to work on my form. The last time I was out I shot a few times at 300 and it was sickening. Almost 8-10 inches apart. So I was quick to assume it had to be the load or the gun or scope.
08-25-2019, 11:25 PM
#17
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 18
Yes, what I meant was I’ll get the noslers to shoot the 1.5” for a cpl times then it seems to open up. It just seems there’s no consistency, and I’m well aware it’s probably me. I understand loads will shoot differently than others. Just looking for the next option to try
08-26-2019, 02:34 AM
#18
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Trumbull County, Ohio
Posts: 9,520
I would move back in to 50 or 100 yards and iron out your process.
Get to shooting consistent, tight groups up closer and then start moving out further.
If there is a problem with your scope/rifle/ammo it'll make itself known at 100.
Your scope has plenty of zoom for 200 yard shots.
There are lots of articles and YouTube videos available on shooting mechanics and fundamentals. They would be worth taking the time to watch
-Jake
Get to shooting consistent, tight groups up closer and then start moving out further.
If there is a problem with your scope/rifle/ammo it'll make itself known at 100.
Your scope has plenty of zoom for 200 yard shots.
There are lots of articles and YouTube videos available on shooting mechanics and fundamentals. They would be worth taking the time to watch
-Jake
08-26-2019, 07:18 AM
#19
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,902
I hope it didn’t seem like we were all raining on your parade of late, but the most likely issue isn’t some rare and complex mechanical or thermodynamic issue, it’s most likely the shooter.
A 3-15x optic can be enough for 1,000yard shooting, if your targets are huge and your tolerance for precision is large. I shoot long range most weekends, and I almost always zoom into 20-25, if not 30x on the optics I have which go that high - even on big targets (like a full size 18”x30” IPSC, or 50” long, full size deer). With a 15x optic, shooting groups at 200yrds, I would want a large diamond, like that available in the Shoot-n-c 5 diamond targets. For 1000yrd shooting groups with a 15x optic, I want a target the size of a car hood, with an aiming reference of 30-40”. This is about the same target size we shoot in Service Rifle/NRA Highpower at 600-1000yrds. That would give me a good milliradian of aiming reference (half mil up and down), with a generous ~2mil visibility. You can’t shoot what you can’t see - and it’s hard to see small things at long distance. That Leupold will have a minimum FOV at 1000yrds of 77ft, meaning a 6ft target is less than 8% of your visible field. Your reticle crosshair lines will be at least 2” thick, and mirage can wiggle your image to appear 4” or more displaced. Placing your POA precisely on a small target at 1,000yrds is a big task (and by small, I mean anything smaller than about 20”).
If the Nosler’s are grouping “sometimes 1/2” at 100yrds” followed by “sometimes 1.5” at 200 yards,” then I’d say you can be happy with a factory rifle which shoots the way a factory rifle should shoot.
If your groups are growing during your session and the barrel’s not getting hot, then in my experience with new shooters, again, it’s not the rifle, it’s the shooter. Anticipating the shot, a little flinch from recoil sensitivity, a little trigger slap, driving the rifle too much instead of working NPOA, a little shooter fatigue... groups tend to grow for new shooters the more they shoot during a day.
The Barnes bullets, however, DO have a sensitivity, and if they don’t match your rifle well, I’m not surprised they shoot 3-4” at 200yrds - but they would also be 1.5”-2” at 100yrds. Barnes bullets, and any other copper solid bullets like them, like the E-tips and Hornady GMX’s, or partition bullets like the Swift A-Frame or Nosler Partition, all tend to prefer a lot of jump to the lands. @Big Uncle shared that tip with me several years ago here, because I had given up on them for lack of precision. So knowing your chamber and knowing how the ammunition fits is much more critical for the Barnes bullets than the more forgiving NBT’s or NAB’s. This might explain why the Barnes don’t shoot as well as the others, but if the Noslers are growing the more groups you shoot, or your groups are growing with range, it’s most likely not the rifle or ammo.
A 3-15x optic can be enough for 1,000yard shooting, if your targets are huge and your tolerance for precision is large. I shoot long range most weekends, and I almost always zoom into 20-25, if not 30x on the optics I have which go that high - even on big targets (like a full size 18”x30” IPSC, or 50” long, full size deer). With a 15x optic, shooting groups at 200yrds, I would want a large diamond, like that available in the Shoot-n-c 5 diamond targets. For 1000yrd shooting groups with a 15x optic, I want a target the size of a car hood, with an aiming reference of 30-40”. This is about the same target size we shoot in Service Rifle/NRA Highpower at 600-1000yrds. That would give me a good milliradian of aiming reference (half mil up and down), with a generous ~2mil visibility. You can’t shoot what you can’t see - and it’s hard to see small things at long distance. That Leupold will have a minimum FOV at 1000yrds of 77ft, meaning a 6ft target is less than 8% of your visible field. Your reticle crosshair lines will be at least 2” thick, and mirage can wiggle your image to appear 4” or more displaced. Placing your POA precisely on a small target at 1,000yrds is a big task (and by small, I mean anything smaller than about 20”).
If the Nosler’s are grouping “sometimes 1/2” at 100yrds” followed by “sometimes 1.5” at 200 yards,” then I’d say you can be happy with a factory rifle which shoots the way a factory rifle should shoot.
If your groups are growing during your session and the barrel’s not getting hot, then in my experience with new shooters, again, it’s not the rifle, it’s the shooter. Anticipating the shot, a little flinch from recoil sensitivity, a little trigger slap, driving the rifle too much instead of working NPOA, a little shooter fatigue... groups tend to grow for new shooters the more they shoot during a day.
The Barnes bullets, however, DO have a sensitivity, and if they don’t match your rifle well, I’m not surprised they shoot 3-4” at 200yrds - but they would also be 1.5”-2” at 100yrds. Barnes bullets, and any other copper solid bullets like them, like the E-tips and Hornady GMX’s, or partition bullets like the Swift A-Frame or Nosler Partition, all tend to prefer a lot of jump to the lands. @Big Uncle shared that tip with me several years ago here, because I had given up on them for lack of precision. So knowing your chamber and knowing how the ammunition fits is much more critical for the Barnes bullets than the more forgiving NBT’s or NAB’s. This might explain why the Barnes don’t shoot as well as the others, but if the Noslers are growing the more groups you shoot, or your groups are growing with range, it’s most likely not the rifle or ammo.
08-26-2019, 09:56 AM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
I have some high end custom rifles that shoot many Factory loads like crap, 3-4 inch groups
BUT find what it likes, and they will shoot 1/2' MOA
a lot IMO comes down to finding the load YOUR gun likes
and in factory ammo, there can be variations that can cause SOME smaller/larger groups out of same box, there NOT as precision reloads as one that is looking for extreme a curacy from there gun/ammo!
and why most all true long range shooters(not being sponsored by an ammo co)
will be using reloads in matches!
I fully agree, a LOT has to do with the shooter, its about being repetitive in your hold, aim and shooting form in general!
I however am NOT a huge fan of super high magnification scopes, at higher magnification I get too much mirage and not fan of that, all the more so on a HUNTING rifler and NOT a match rifle
as in life pro's and con's to all things
a 1,000 yards is a LONG way out, ad a TON of things have to come together to make things into small groups
and countless variables are beyond the shooters control!
BUT find what it likes, and they will shoot 1/2' MOA
a lot IMO comes down to finding the load YOUR gun likes
and in factory ammo, there can be variations that can cause SOME smaller/larger groups out of same box, there NOT as precision reloads as one that is looking for extreme a curacy from there gun/ammo!
and why most all true long range shooters(not being sponsored by an ammo co)
will be using reloads in matches!
I fully agree, a LOT has to do with the shooter, its about being repetitive in your hold, aim and shooting form in general!
I however am NOT a huge fan of super high magnification scopes, at higher magnification I get too much mirage and not fan of that, all the more so on a HUNTING rifler and NOT a match rifle
as in life pro's and con's to all things
a 1,000 yards is a LONG way out, ad a TON of things have to come together to make things into small groups
and countless variables are beyond the shooters control!
