what a concept.. using logic and facts to select a rifle
 

mentally step back and ask yourself ,
its the last day of the season, the biggest deer or elk you've ever seen is about to run,
over a ridge hes currently standing on,and it getting dark rapidly,
your only option is a raking shot angle,
whats the longest range, worst shot angle, your likely to ever be faced with,
will the rifle you carry easily allow you to drop game under that set of conditions?
if your one shot will be the only chance you get to fill your tag with the largest deer or elk youll ever see...
would you rather have a different rifle in your hands?
now realistically thats very likely to be at a range under 300 yards.
you'll have less than 6-10 seconds to make that shot, from a hasty field position,
and you will not have an ideal angle,
you may need to bust a lot of bone or punch a raking angle shot,
through a few feet or rump & guts to destroy the vitals.
if your smart you select a rifle and cartridge thats up to tackling the shot ,
under the most adverse conditions, not the ideal conditions
a 7.5 barrel 357 mag revolver loaded with a 158 grain soft point, will kill any deer or elk at 30 yards in skilled hands
a 243 with a premium 100 grain bullet is certainly lethal in skilled hand under close to ideal conditions
but what do you want if your only chance is about to disappear off that ridge at 300 yards, and his rump is almost 3/4 facing you as hes walking off that ridge crest?
personally I want a 270 win or 308 win as a minimum, and would be far happier with a 35 whelen, or 338 win.

I was at the local outdoor range rather briefly to check the zero on one of my rifles,
when the guy on the next bench started a conversation.
he was very sure to announce that he had purchased one of the newer short case 7mm magnums
he almost immediately wanted to discuss what he considered to be the best possible rifle and cartridge combo ,...
he was not having much luck setting his rifle zero
now if you've read many of my previous posts,
I've used about everything from a 44 mag marlin and a 357 mag revolver to a 458 lott on deer,
and I've seen elk consistently killed with a 257 Roberts and a 45/70 and most of the cartridges between the two.
there are no really bad 7mm magnum cartridges so if he learns to shoot consistently well he will be well armed.
and in my opinion, its much more important that the guy operating the rifle , know the games anatomy,
and fully understand the particular rifle or handguns strengths and limitations than the head stamp on the brass.
so I ask him to point out both what he expected the rifle to do,too the game being hunted,
and the conditions and ranges he expected it to function under, and pointed out that his selection should be fully capable,
of working under less than ideal ranges, shot angles on game and be reasonably accurate to the longest range he was likely to see or hunt game.
now theres thousands of articles written about the "best deer rifle" or "best elk rifle" every year.
news flash, theres hundreds of fully functional cartridge and rifle combos and there have been some available for over 100 years,
(30/06, 375 H&H,30/40 krag 6.5 mm swed,, 7mm mauser, 7.62.54r 8×64mm Brenneke, 303 brit, 333 jeffery, 470 nitro,405 win, 8mm mauser, 45/70 come instantly to mind)
if you read all the articles you would be sure to think, that only the newest and fastest, and flattest trajectory firearm would be up to the task.
funny how a 30/40 krag was used to kill one of the largest elk ever taken
https://throughahunterseyes.com/the-...c-proportions/
yes the rifle and cartridge matters, but its the skill , experience and knowledge of the guy holding it that matters far more
theres hundreds of thousands of good rifles and cartridges combos, but theres fewer really skilled hunters.
learn to use what you selected very well , to place accurate shots from field positions, and your odds of success skyrocket

This kind of happened to me this past season. He wasn't the biggest bull elk that I've ever shot or seen, but he was a decent 6x6 and was the only bull that I saw this season.

I had my favorite elk rifle, my .300 Weatherby with 180 gr Barnes TTSX bullets, and I was laying prone with my rifle on my bipod. I had lasered him at 250 corrected yards above me on a hill. When he walked out from behind one tree I had my crosshairs on him for about 40 yards until he disappeared behind another tree near a property line where I don't have permission to hunt. The problem was that he was walking almost straight away from me and I didn't even get a good quartering angle for a shot.

I will not shoot an unwounded animal in the butt, so that season ended in tag soup.

most of us have been involved ,in these rifle/ammo choice selection discussions.
when I was younger and far less experienced , I was rather easily impressed, with isolated results I saw in the field.
after seeing 5 decades of game killed I think I gained a much more realistic perspective.
my mentors in the late 1960s and early 1970s almost exclusively suggested I buy and use a 30/06 loaded with peters 220 grain bullets.
as a group we hunted the area around EAGLE,MEEKER ,RIFLE and GYPSUM Colorado

I was not overly impressed with my first two elk kills using that combo, both elk were well hit at ranges under 150 yards
both ran, 40-60 yards on / after bullet impact
I swapped to a 340 weatherby using 250 hornady bullets and the next couple elk dropped within a few steps...
.I was convinced Id found the answer.
over the decades watching other guys use damn near every common cartridge,
it slowly dawned on me that damn near everything worked if the shot placement was good ,
and it was rather common for well hit elk to make a 30-50 yard run when hit.
my late hunting partner RON, used a 358 win BLR for decades and had good success,
another guy stuck to using a ruger #1 in 270 win with 150 grain speer bullets.. he was just as successful.
in over 28-29 individual out of state hunts I made, and 45 or so our group made,
our group did far better than the game department odds might suggest.
over time I watched the more experienced guys (other than myself) gravitate away from magnums,
the 30/06, 338/06 , 358 win and 35 whelen have become well respected choices
I stuck with the 340 wby and a 375 H&H carbine on most hunts
(hey I have 100% confidence in those)yes I tried a 358 win, a 30.06, a 270 win, 45/70, 450 marlin and Ive carried a 257 roberts,
they ALL work if you can shoot well.
its not the cartridge, or rifle or cartridge you select, (yes the projectile you use maters )
its your ability to find the elk,and get into decent range, and shoot accurately, thats critical.
looking at the guys that were consistently successful, it was dogged persistence, the ability to get your butt up before dawn and hunt until your successful
accumulated knowledge, learning how and why elk travel in , and avoid some areas that was the most critical skill

my question might be, if the shot is a low odds , poor shot, why take it at all?
is filling a tag worth risking loosing/wounding a trophy animal?
I hunt with many caliber rifles, I tend to take a rifle that I feel will cover most all shots I WOULD take on the targeted game animal
I don't take poor shots I DON"T have to fill a tag to have had a great hunt?
also there is way more to shooting /killing than caliber
this real fast can turn into a pissing match
as there is WHAT bullet, some smaller caliber bullets will do better than others, same with larger caliber

then add in after decades of shooting and training shooters
the FACT< that many folks DON"T handle recoil very well, and as such will flinch and miss way more due to fearing that recoil!
SO< IMO< again, I think it should come down to WHAT caliber is up to the task of the targeted game animal in the hunt that you can shoot WELL< and KNOW your limits and the limits of said caliber!

this reminds me of when folks go and BUY a big large caliber rifle that TV/magazines all hype up as being able to kill at extreme ranges
when the shooter has ZERO skills to shoot far
but THINKS due to they bought"X" rifle scope , NOW they see a trophy far off, past any distance they ever shot at before, BUT THINK< due to they have "X" rifle scope, all they need to do is fire away and they will have there trophy down!

SO< sorry for getting off topic, but, at same time
WHAT IF 's like this are just this, to me!
one really I think has to ask themselves what are THERE limits and skills, and HOW bad do they feel they NEED to fill a tag! to take poor shots or not?

thats a valid point ! I may be wrong, but I've always assumed that most ethical and experienced, hunters will use and exercise,
reasonable judgement, before making a shot and only shoot under conditions they feel confident in making the shot well,
and have a respect for game, and have a solid grasp on their personal limitations.
I have also noticed as you stated that a good many people seem to think the rifles recoil level can be objectionable and that it effects their accuracy.
obviously thats a factor each of us has to deal with and tolerance differs wildly.
obviously no one can control others judgment, but felt recoil can be significantly reduced
use of a PAST recoil shoulder pad , a rifle stock recoil pad, and proper use of a sling and bi-pod goes a long way toward reducing the potential problem.




http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0094310010

• 

HB25CS 25C Model S -13.5-27" Swivel Bipod

yes, my comfortable range for taking a shot also varies a great deal with conditions terrain and lighting,
while I practice out too 500 yards every chance I get, I vastly prefer taking shots while sitting and use of a bi-pod and sling,
most Of the elk and deer I've shot were taken at ranges under 300 yards, simply because the areas I hunt,
tend to be thicker aspen and conifer and rather steep narrow canyons
leaning on a tree, trunk, or over a blow down,
and / or use of that bi-pod and sling with the rifle,are very common, in my experience.
if you walk one slope of some canyon watching the far slope your potential shot ranges rarely exceed 300 yards due to terrain limitations.
that and the fact you can,t see due to the aspen and conifer growth and elk not being stupid enough to wonder out into open areas during the daylight

pictures like these are much more common in my experience than open fields you occasionally see in magazines of elk pictures posted

I can't decide if you're saying my .30-06 is good to go or not....

If it isn't let me know so I can begin shopping for something that isn't 110 years old.

My rifle choice, at least for deer, usually isn't based on anything other than what spikes my interest. I suppose I could look at some numbers and come up with one rifle and one load that I could call the "perfect" whitetail set up. It would probably be something short, light, and in 7mm-08.

But I like to mess with different things and play with stuff until I'm bored and then move on to something new. So I'll Keep making my decision based off of what interests me. It's worked so far and I've taken deer with some fun rifles. .30-40 krags, various WW2 era bolt actions, old pumps and old levers, the things interest me . And they are often what I reach for to take into the woods. And that's how I select my rifles

-Jake

my opinion may not matter , but youll have A more difficult time ignoring the science of ballistics, and the laws of physics
and decades of field testing,
your 30/06 if loaded with about any decent 165-212 grain projectile will work just fine if you can shoot accurately
but then almost any center-fire rifle if used in a rational manor, inside its known limitations would also.
obviously a good knowledge of the games anatomy and skill operating your rifle of choice helps
One guy I hunt with regularly uses a 1917 endfield mil surplus rifle he really likes , similar to the picture below
thats over 90 years old... the elk never notice, hes 90 years behind the times..

I don't take iffy shots. Even the near-perfect shots can provide iffy results. I keep my shots on game animals (eatable) to reasonable distances. My rule of thumb is any distance with 15 inches of drop is the max for that rifle. I will push the envelope on Varmints.
I took a broadside shot at a Roebuck, maybe 70 lbs., at forty yards. A near perfect shot a couple of inches above his heart. He took off like I'd burned his rear end, up a steep slope. I got ready for a second shot, I figured he'd stop to blow and check his back trail. When he stopped at maybe 125 yards, I put a second shot into him broadside quartering away. He ran another thirty yards. When I skinned him I noticed two bullet holes an inch apart. His heart looked like a bowl of chopped up Jello, it kind of dribbled chunks between my fingers when I picked it up..

Plan for the worst, hope for the best. IMO iffy shots are going to give you iffy results, even near perfect shots can result in problems on occasion, IMO you have an ethical duty to put an animal down dead, as quickly and efficiently as possible.

That ethical duty thing is always a slippery slope. Since we all essentially have our own idea of what's ethical.

If I want to take a .25-20 Winchester for deer, there are some people who would scoff at that. Saying that there are much better options etc. Even some who would bring ethics into it saying that using a rifle like that is an ethical problem because I have other options better suited to the task and which have a much lower chance of wounding game. And they're right. All things being equal (shot distance, angle, deers body language, etc) a .300 mag at 35 yards is going to have a lesser chance of only wounding an animal than a .25-20wcf.

But I don't think that means it's unethical for me to try to take a deer with a .25-20.

Match your shot limitations to what you're using. And don't have unrealistic expectations or take unrealistic shots.

An elk hunter could hunt their entire life with a .30-06 and do just fine. Or with whatever variety of .300, or a .338, or a .35 or a .375 or a .270 the list goes on...

As long as they match their expectations and shot choices with their chosen rifle they will be fine.

Now for the guy who wants one rifle to hunt with and wants the best, or as reasonably close to the best, option available for him then you start looking at everything with a fine tooth comb and picking apart all the different load options and combinations available and trying to decide what suits your needs and what is best matched to the game animal(s) that you'll be hunting, the locations and the distances and angles you expect to encounter.

-Jake

what always bothered me were stories of...

"well I was on a combo hunt... for say blacktail and grizzly..."

and I saw a big grizzly when I was deer hunting and had deer ammo in my gun...

I'm mostly a 1 gun, 1 bullet guy, if it'll kill and elk, it'll kill a deer,, but the reverse is not always ideal IMO.

also some of these shows, no one reloads quickly, i've seen game get hit, drop, get up, run off, had the hunter been ready...reloaded, they could have got off a 2nd shot.

yes, its always rather puzzled me that many guys want to carry a 4-6 lb rifle and chamber it in a cartridge that limits recoil significantly ,
yet they ignore physics and don,t grasp the concept that .
you can easily calculate both the cartridge recoil potential and down range retained energy.
a rifle is a tool, you should select the best tool for the job at hand, not the select the smaller and easy to carry tool ,
that may not get the job done when its used.

recoil
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi

trajectory
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady...alculators/#!/

theres no free lunch! but you can significantly reduce felt recoil
use of a PAST recoil shoulder pad , a rifle stock recoil pad, and proper use of a sling and bi-pod , and high quality optics ,goes a long way toward reducing the potential problem.
use of a properly designed muzzle brake, butt stock recoil pad, shooting pad sewn into the shoulder of your vest or parka a decent sling and a bi-pod all help both accuracy and reduce felt recoil.
and one factor that can,t be ignored is the need for rather consistent & repetitive practice from field positions
if you only pick that rifle out of your gun safe the weekend before the season opens you can reasonably expect your skill and familiarity to be rather pathetic,
compared to a guy that visits the local range at least every 30-45 days during the year.
use the calculators but keep in mind most game is shot at well under 300 yards so you don,t require a fire breathing magnum,
what you do require is consistent repetitive accuracy of shot placement and a knowledge of the games anatomy,
and your being in the physical condition to be in the right location at the correct time to make use of any opportunity you get.
,



http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0094310010

• 

HB25CS 25C Model S -13.5-27" Swivel Bipod
no thats not my rifle but its damn near its clone
Ive used a 340 wby or 375 H&H carbine on most hunts for decades,
I used a stiff load of H4831 and a 250 hornady sighted in 3.5" high at 100 yards ,in the 340 wby for decades
never had any reason to change

my late hunting partner used a browning BLR in caliber 358 win loaded with a 250 grain Speer bullet ,
over 44 grains of IMR 4064 and a 215 fed primer for 4 decades
he had a 2x7x Leopold scope, similar to this picture
he constantly jokingly referred to my rifles as CANNONs, but both of us were very content with the results we got over decades

sighted in at 3.5" high at 100 yards, this put the bullet impact almost dead on at 200 yards,
and about 11" low at 300 yards he never failed to kill any elk he shot
a 358 win is certainly not a magnum and recoil is tolerable for most people

I agree with salukipv1 about using enough gun. I like a caliber and bullet choice that works for those perfect shots and also works if the animal suddenly moves while firing and the shot changes to not so perfect. I use a 270 when deer hunting because black bear is also on the menu. It works great on antelope also. It's not so fur friendly on coyotes but they are DRT. I use a 338 when elk or moose hunting and know it's got enough for a griz if needed. There are hundreds of calibers and rifles one could choose that will get the job done. I just like using classics that I know will get the job done.

while Id also agree power will not make up for bad shot placement, yet,
Ive seen more than ample evidence that theres,
a pronounced difference in the average elk or deer's reaction to being hit ,
with something like a 300 wby, or 35 whelen vs a 243 or 257 roberts,
both class of cartridges deliver a lethal non-survivable wound,
if its carefully placed in the vitals, with a decent bullet ,
especially one with a .240-.300 sectional density,that penetrates really well .
you can,t ignore physics, a heavier mass of similar ballistic shape, at similar high velocity carries more retained energy
https://www.beartoothbullets.com/res...hp/density.htm
thats not really debate-able, but many of the guys that kid me about my use of a 340 wby or 375 H&H,
have watched me shoot and drop deer and elk, and dress out deer and elk,
as a result theres been several converts over the decades,
larger caliber projectiles may not be more lethal,
but they darn sure seem to impress the game more on impact.
my dad used to say selecting a rifle caliber for killing games,
a bit like selecting a rifle to punch holes in a 55 gallon,barrel of water
where you place the shot maters,a great deal, and if its not well placed you won,t drain the contents
but the larger the hole the quicker you can expect the contents to drain.
and if theres a hole in both sides your going to drain the contents faster yet.

duplicate post

your experiences may differ from mine, but heres my take after 50 years of mostly ELK and mule deer hunts.
if you've been consistently successful using your current rifle theres no reason to change.
the most common problem I see is not the rifle or cartridge, used its the operators inability to accurately place shots under field conditions.
accurate shot placement is by far the most critical factor, if recoil effects your accuracy , go with the cartridge your more comfortable using.
one of the more successful members of my hunt club has used a 270 win for decades,many guys stick with a 30/06
I'm in full agreement that the 257 roberts,25/06-6.5mm- and 270 win and even the 308 win class of cartridge
throwing a 100-165 grain bullet in the 2600fps-3200fps velocity range is about ideal for most deer hunting ,
I've consistently had excellent results with cartridges in that class on deer
(the 25/06 , 257 wby and 270 win are personal favorite's)
yes these have also worked on elk. (seen it done many times)
but as your sure too be aware ,as is anyone who has much experience,
shot placement is very critical,hit correctly almost any center-fire cartridge can work reasonably well.
even with very good shot placement, in my past experience, about 40% of the elk run after being hit
yeah, I,ve often wondered if elk being a reasonably large,400-800 plus lb animal had a tendency,
if wounded,,too stomp and gore hunters like a cape buffalo ,or claw and bite like a Kodiak bear,
if we would see what I consider rather un-realistically light caliber rifles being used on elk.
I know a few guys in my hunt club think theres nothing unsporting or unethical in using a 24-25 caliber rifle,
on elk, I know of a few cases where several follow -up shots were required,
now obviously bullet selection shot placement and hunter skill plays a huge part here, not just the cartridge used....
but still I think if the hunter could reasonably be expected to be at serious risk if he failed to deliver a first shot stop mortal wound,
we might see a shift to larger bores and a bit more power in respect to the consequences of failing to deliver a rapidly lethal wound



anyone using those rifles needs to wait for the correct shot angle,
and be well within a reasonable range to consistently destroy the vitals,
get that correct and "your golden" in most cases, deer are as you stated far more "fragile",
and not as heavily muscled , a fast expanding projectile in the upper heart/lung area does impressive damage.
a bullet designed for elk generally zips through, and while its frequently going to cause lethal damage , its slower expansion,
has occasionally resulted a a tracking job for the rather short distance they run until they bleed out.

heart lung lower center chest

upper chest spine/shoulder

elk are a bit more heavily built , you benefit from deeper penetration, and a bit deeper penetration, is beneficial.
the same deer cartridges can work, on broadside shots,but a larger caliber you bring a bit better tool to the job,
if you select something like a 165-250 grain bullet in the 2300fps-3100fps velocity range,
are about ideal for most elk hunting, (in my experience) these cartridge's tend too consistently exit on chest shots, after taking out the vitals,
even if a foot or two of non-vital hide and muscle on a raking angle protects the vitals.
shots easily and ethically made with the 30-375 calibers but best avoided or almost mandating a premium bullet, with the 24-25 calibers,
and requiring a premium bullet in the 26-28 calibers in some cases


in 45 plus years of dressing out game Id suggest a 270 win,308 win, or 7mm 08 loaded with a premium bullet is about the smallest calibers,
I see consistently and quickly put down game effectively
yes a cartridge like a 257 roberts or 6mm rem, or 243 win in skilled hands works under nearer, ideal conditions


but if that elk of a lifetimes standing out at 300 yards and I need to make a less than ideal shot angle shot,
Id rather have a higher quality 180-200 grain bullet in a 30/06 or a 225-250 grain in a 338 caliber