is reality a problem for you in selecting between, new vs traditional?
10-08-2018, 01:01 PM
#1
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: texas
Posts: 1,201
is reality a problem for you in selecting between, new vs traditional?
one of the local guys stopped by this A.M. to show me his new toy!
hes been saving up and doing the research required to find what he considered to be the most accurate rifle he could find and afford, as his best choice in a new elk hunting rifle.
now he decided after reading several dozen magazines that the only logical choice he had was to select a new tactical style sniping rifle in caliber 6.5 mm creedmoor....,
now I'd be the last guy to suggest anyone not purchase a new rifle if that purchase made them feel better or more confident,
but maybe its my engineering back ground and being an old traditional geezer with decades of experience, that just seems to be getting in the way of my desire or acceptance of the purchase of the newest options on sale.
I also tend to be rather amazed at the number of guys who think cartridges like the 6.5mm creedmoor provide a quantum leap in performance ,
over well known and well respected cartridges like the 300 wby mag, and 340 wby mag, that are at least 60 years old designs
being a 60 year old design does not infer its out- dated or no longer effective.
nor does the fact , its marketed as NEW and IMPROVED make it more effective, the
6.5MM Swedish Mauser was available with similar ballistics and was killing Russian soldiers since well before WWII,as it was a standard before the year, 1900
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Mauser
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Kno...se/6.5x55.html
He was absolutely convinced that his new toy was a kick butt absolutely great 1000 yard elk hammer!
I kind of reluctantly,
burst his mental bubble pointing out a bit of physics and reality
experience has shown me and most of the guys I hunt with,
that you just don,t see many elk out past 400 yards or so,
in the field, but even if you do, its, as always precise, shot placement on the elks vital organs, and the realization that youll seldom have much time to make the shot , nor get the elk to provide the ideal shot angle .
or know the exact range to the target, and the need for penetration and delivered energy on the target at impact thats going to be the major factors in dropping any elk.
(most experienced hunters will generally suggest you need to have about 1500 ft lbs minimum energy to get the required penetration. from an odd angle and un-known range.
a bit of math shows the 6.5 creedmoor has the required energy too bust shoulders and drop an elk out to a bit over 400 yards. and at 400 yards its about 12 inches low with a 300 yard zero.
https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady...alculators/#!/
using math helps
I generally love to spend time at the range and I certainly am in favor of lots of practice to maximize familiarity, theres no question recoil levels will be much less and the cost of reloading components will be lower, with the 6.5 mm creed-moor,
but I don,t think its going to be anywhere near as effective as a 300 , 338, or 340 mag rifle on any elk hunt
As with any rifle you might want to hunt with.
Id also suggest working with handloads.
if we select a 142-145 grain projectile in the 6.5mm creedmore as about the average projectile weight ,
and push it to , lets be generous and say 2700 fps ,
and assume a consistent 1" 100 yard group, and we set the zero at 300 yards.
https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearm...h-65-creedmoor
https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2017/0...oor-load-data/
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...g-tips-tricks/
https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady...alculators/#!/
https://www.speer-ammo.com/bullets/r...tz-hcsp-bullet
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/...mm-142-gr-HPBT
now lets for giggles compare that to my old school 340 weatherby and use a decent ballistically effective bullet.
lets select the 270 grain hornady bullet in .338 caliber. in my 340 wby.
with the same zero we find the larger cartridge retains the energy of 1500 ft lbs out to past 1000 yards, and effectively maintains a rather similar trajectory out past about 700 yards, where the 340 wbys heavier projectile still retains a great deal more energy and past that range theres no comparing either trajectory or impact energy retained.
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifl...70-gr-eld-x#!/
http://armusa.com/WeatherbyRifles12.htm
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=340 Wby. Mag.&Source=&Type=rifle
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=300 Weatherby mag.&Weight=All&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=
yeah theres a big difference in recoil, but rather surprisingly both rifles are rather heavy and with a scope , that will allow accurate shot placement out at longer ranges,
(lets say this one)
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...e-scope-30mm-tube-4-16x-50mm-side-focus-matte
and a bi-pod and sling both rifles weight in at about 12 lbs
yes the new tactical rifle looks to be rather new and interesting....
but I think Id stay with the same 340 weatherby Ive used for 5 decades and simply take advantage of the improved bullets available, if Id selected the 300 wby or 30/378 I could flatten the trajectory and gain a bit extra range but because I doubt Id see any elk past 400 yards I don,t think running out to buy a new rifle for well over $1200-$1800 is in my future investments,
I also have some doubts about carrying a rifle with a metallic stock in sub-zero temperatures either.
hes been saving up and doing the research required to find what he considered to be the most accurate rifle he could find and afford, as his best choice in a new elk hunting rifle.
now he decided after reading several dozen magazines that the only logical choice he had was to select a new tactical style sniping rifle in caliber 6.5 mm creedmoor....,
now I'd be the last guy to suggest anyone not purchase a new rifle if that purchase made them feel better or more confident,
but maybe its my engineering back ground and being an old traditional geezer with decades of experience, that just seems to be getting in the way of my desire or acceptance of the purchase of the newest options on sale.
I also tend to be rather amazed at the number of guys who think cartridges like the 6.5mm creedmoor provide a quantum leap in performance ,
over well known and well respected cartridges like the 300 wby mag, and 340 wby mag, that are at least 60 years old designs
being a 60 year old design does not infer its out- dated or no longer effective.
nor does the fact , its marketed as NEW and IMPROVED make it more effective, the
6.5MM Swedish Mauser was available with similar ballistics and was killing Russian soldiers since well before WWII,as it was a standard before the year, 1900
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Mauser
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Kno...se/6.5x55.html
He was absolutely convinced that his new toy was a kick butt absolutely great 1000 yard elk hammer!
I kind of reluctantly,
burst his mental bubble pointing out a bit of physics and reality
experience has shown me and most of the guys I hunt with,
that you just don,t see many elk out past 400 yards or so,
in the field, but even if you do, its, as always precise, shot placement on the elks vital organs, and the realization that youll seldom have much time to make the shot , nor get the elk to provide the ideal shot angle .
or know the exact range to the target, and the need for penetration and delivered energy on the target at impact thats going to be the major factors in dropping any elk.
(most experienced hunters will generally suggest you need to have about 1500 ft lbs minimum energy to get the required penetration. from an odd angle and un-known range.
a bit of math shows the 6.5 creedmoor has the required energy too bust shoulders and drop an elk out to a bit over 400 yards. and at 400 yards its about 12 inches low with a 300 yard zero.
https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady...alculators/#!/
using math helps
I generally love to spend time at the range and I certainly am in favor of lots of practice to maximize familiarity, theres no question recoil levels will be much less and the cost of reloading components will be lower, with the 6.5 mm creed-moor,
but I don,t think its going to be anywhere near as effective as a 300 , 338, or 340 mag rifle on any elk hunt
As with any rifle you might want to hunt with.
Id also suggest working with handloads.
if we select a 142-145 grain projectile in the 6.5mm creedmore as about the average projectile weight ,
and push it to , lets be generous and say 2700 fps ,
and assume a consistent 1" 100 yard group, and we set the zero at 300 yards.
https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearm...h-65-creedmoor
https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2017/0...oor-load-data/
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...g-tips-tricks/
https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady...alculators/#!/
https://www.speer-ammo.com/bullets/r...tz-hcsp-bullet
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/...mm-142-gr-HPBT
now lets for giggles compare that to my old school 340 weatherby and use a decent ballistically effective bullet.
lets select the 270 grain hornady bullet in .338 caliber. in my 340 wby.
with the same zero we find the larger cartridge retains the energy of 1500 ft lbs out to past 1000 yards, and effectively maintains a rather similar trajectory out past about 700 yards, where the 340 wbys heavier projectile still retains a great deal more energy and past that range theres no comparing either trajectory or impact energy retained.
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifl...70-gr-eld-x#!/
http://armusa.com/WeatherbyRifles12.htm
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=340 Wby. Mag.&Source=&Type=rifle
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=300 Weatherby mag.&Weight=All&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=
yeah theres a big difference in recoil, but rather surprisingly both rifles are rather heavy and with a scope , that will allow accurate shot placement out at longer ranges,
(lets say this one)
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...e-scope-30mm-tube-4-16x-50mm-side-focus-matte
and a bi-pod and sling both rifles weight in at about 12 lbs
yes the new tactical rifle looks to be rather new and interesting....
but I think Id stay with the same 340 weatherby Ive used for 5 decades and simply take advantage of the improved bullets available, if Id selected the 300 wby or 30/378 I could flatten the trajectory and gain a bit extra range but because I doubt Id see any elk past 400 yards I don,t think running out to buy a new rifle for well over $1200-$1800 is in my future investments,
I also have some doubts about carrying a rifle with a metallic stock in sub-zero temperatures either.
Last edited by hardcastonly; 10-08-2018 at 01:18 PM.
10-08-2018, 02:41 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
personally I think more and more people are buying rifles that LOOK like movie guns and HIGH tech gadgets, that makes them FEEL like there going to be better shooters or just want the SHOCK value of having them
very very very few actual hunters spend a lot of time shooting, in season or OFF
all the craze in these SO called LONG range rifles and set up's is just Marketing at its finest and re inventing the wheel of sorts
and its crazy how many fall into the trap and NEED to BUY"X" things to be in with the cool kids!
I started shooting long range(1,000+ yards ) back in the 80's have seen a LOT of things show up at benches and still today, many of the same GREAT basic rifles still win and shoot very well, without the hype of needing to APPEAR like a Military sniper! LOL
hey, its keeping the shooting industry going forward so its NOT all bad IMO
I prefer larger calibers for larger game and DON"T focus on the modern Hype behind each and every NEW LONG range caliber!
a dead animal doesn't care what killed it LOL or has NO say in it?
with hunter numbers dropping, I doubt Any NEW modern caliber will have as many kills as other more traditional cabers have accounted for(30/30, .308 , 30-06,30 win come to mind fast here)
also anyone BUYING a new caliber to save ion Powder to reload is being rather silly in the BIG picture, newer brass can be more costly to off set things real fast LOL
and JUST so everyone gets this RIGHT
I am NOT bashing the new stuff
just saying, its marketing doing more for sales than leaps and gains in killing or down range! all calibers have a LOT of drop from 0 to 1,000 yards! where a slight error can be a BIG miss!
very very very few actual hunters spend a lot of time shooting, in season or OFF
all the craze in these SO called LONG range rifles and set up's is just Marketing at its finest and re inventing the wheel of sorts
and its crazy how many fall into the trap and NEED to BUY"X" things to be in with the cool kids!
I started shooting long range(1,000+ yards ) back in the 80's have seen a LOT of things show up at benches and still today, many of the same GREAT basic rifles still win and shoot very well, without the hype of needing to APPEAR like a Military sniper! LOL
hey, its keeping the shooting industry going forward so its NOT all bad IMO
I prefer larger calibers for larger game and DON"T focus on the modern Hype behind each and every NEW LONG range caliber!
a dead animal doesn't care what killed it LOL or has NO say in it?
with hunter numbers dropping, I doubt Any NEW modern caliber will have as many kills as other more traditional cabers have accounted for(30/30, .308 , 30-06,30 win come to mind fast here)
also anyone BUYING a new caliber to save ion Powder to reload is being rather silly in the BIG picture, newer brass can be more costly to off set things real fast LOL
and JUST so everyone gets this RIGHT
I am NOT bashing the new stuff
just saying, its marketing doing more for sales than leaps and gains in killing or down range! all calibers have a LOT of drop from 0 to 1,000 yards! where a slight error can be a BIG miss!
10-09-2018, 10:44 AM
#6
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: WI&UP
Posts: 751
I find it amusing that someone claims being an engineer, preventso them from going modern.
I do not have an ar15. But I think many are being chicks by sticking with wood guns. I don't have a lot of experience but I don't think it's hard to argue the pistol grip is a natural grip. Adjustable stock would be nice too.
engineers should be concerned with performance, over cosmetics.
as for 6.5mm rifles, I do question. Some long range hunters like less recoil, so increased accuracy. I believe that.
if you are shooting at long ranges, and open country, it might not matter if it runs. Though I have seen white tail run with longs gone. Not sure if they would run less from smaller caliber.
I like bigger calibers cause I hunt close range in heavy bush. Not a lot if deer here, you don't wait for them to come back another day with text book shot.
last year was my first odd angle. 45-70 dropped him.
but I get wide open country is different. Ballistic chacteristics of some modern rounds is better too
I do not have an ar15. But I think many are being chicks by sticking with wood guns. I don't have a lot of experience but I don't think it's hard to argue the pistol grip is a natural grip. Adjustable stock would be nice too.
engineers should be concerned with performance, over cosmetics.
as for 6.5mm rifles, I do question. Some long range hunters like less recoil, so increased accuracy. I believe that.
if you are shooting at long ranges, and open country, it might not matter if it runs. Though I have seen white tail run with longs gone. Not sure if they would run less from smaller caliber.
I like bigger calibers cause I hunt close range in heavy bush. Not a lot if deer here, you don't wait for them to come back another day with text book shot.
last year was my first odd angle. 45-70 dropped him.
but I get wide open country is different. Ballistic chacteristics of some modern rounds is better too
10-09-2018, 10:50 AM
#8
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,230
Nope. I have 4 primary big game rifles, 7mm Rem Mag, 6.5x55 Swedish, 9.3x62 Mauser and 375 H&H Mag. The 7mm is the newest caliber in the group since it was developed in the 1960's and the rest all go back more than 100 years. I'll hunt anything on the planet with those 4. New wizbang calibers hold no interest for me.
10-09-2018, 11:03 AM
#9
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: WI&UP
Posts: 751
I don't care what the topic is. If you say nothing has improved or cause that is the way we always done it, you are a fool.
granted my two calibers are 30-06 and 45-70. But they sure are not same round from 100 years ago.
my truck has fuel injection and electronic ignition. My bikes have electric start.
I ask for the best medicine when going to the doc. I get CT scans and MRIs.
granted my two calibers are 30-06 and 45-70. But they sure are not same round from 100 years ago.
my truck has fuel injection and electronic ignition. My bikes have electric start.
I ask for the best medicine when going to the doc. I get CT scans and MRIs.
10-09-2018, 11:06 AM
#10
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SW Montana
Posts: 550
Of the two pics that you posted hardcast, I'll take the Weatherby. To me, that TC is just flat UGLY! I'm definitely old school.
I'm also sure that the 6.5 CM is a great cartridge, and if I hadn't bought a new .308 Win a couple of years ago, I might consider buying a 6.5 CM. But with a .257 Ackley, a .308 Win, .270 Win, etc, I see no need to jump on the 6.5 bandwagon.
In 50+ years of Colorado and Montana elk and other big game hunting, I've never seen the need for a 400+ yard shot. And although I've killed elk with my .257 Ackley, even if I had a 6.5 CM, I would still pick my .300 Weatherby or even my 7mm RM over those other two cartridges for an elk hunt.
I'm also sure that the 6.5 CM is a great cartridge, and if I hadn't bought a new .308 Win a couple of years ago, I might consider buying a 6.5 CM. But with a .257 Ackley, a .308 Win, .270 Win, etc, I see no need to jump on the 6.5 bandwagon.
In 50+ years of Colorado and Montana elk and other big game hunting, I've never seen the need for a 400+ yard shot. And although I've killed elk with my .257 Ackley, even if I had a 6.5 CM, I would still pick my .300 Weatherby or even my 7mm RM over those other two cartridges for an elk hunt.
