6mm Creedmor
05-11-2018, 09:04 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,780
6mm Creedmor
I am toying with the idea of having a rifle built to shoot the 6mm Creedmor cartridge. New cartridges and their fanboys are annoying in general, but this one just may have enough merit for serious consideration. This rifle would not be used for competition and will spend it's time hunting for smaller "big game" such as pronghorns and small bodied deer, varmints, and maybe the occasional informal match at the club.
Many years ago I decided that I was smarter than the other benchrest shooters and had a rifle made to shoot the 243 Winchester cartridge. It did not work out well and I got trimmed consistently in matches. A new barrel did not help. However, I decided that it was just a rifle problem and stubbornly had a second match rifle put together for the 243 Winchester. Same results. The 243 Win is a fine hunting round but just did not work out for benchrest purposes for me. I do not shoot BR anymore and can easily find other things to aggravate myself with and waste money.
The 6mm Creedmor has similar velocity to the 243 Win and is touted as having very good accuracy potential. I do not believe in either advertising claims or magic but I am casually thinking of a new rifle and am considering this cartridge.
Many years ago I decided that I was smarter than the other benchrest shooters and had a rifle made to shoot the 243 Winchester cartridge. It did not work out well and I got trimmed consistently in matches. A new barrel did not help. However, I decided that it was just a rifle problem and stubbornly had a second match rifle put together for the 243 Winchester. Same results. The 243 Win is a fine hunting round but just did not work out for benchrest purposes for me. I do not shoot BR anymore and can easily find other things to aggravate myself with and waste money.
The 6mm Creedmor has similar velocity to the 243 Win and is touted as having very good accuracy potential. I do not believe in either advertising claims or magic but I am casually thinking of a new rifle and am considering this cartridge.
05-11-2018, 09:12 AM
#2
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: IL
Posts: 6,575
sounds like a valid option...
I think the .243 AI and 6mm AI might also be known for better accuracy than either parent cartridge and you'd get some added velocity.
nothing wrong with the 6.5 creed either... if accuracy is your main goal.
let us know how it turns out
I think the .243 AI and 6mm AI might also be known for better accuracy than either parent cartridge and you'd get some added velocity.
nothing wrong with the 6.5 creed either... if accuracy is your main goal.
let us know how it turns out
05-11-2018, 03:30 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,905
You won't get as much speed from the 6mm Creed as the 243win. A bit better barrel life in the Creed case. 243win AI is a moderate bump over the straight 243win, but less barrel life still. Since you're getting a custom barrel, you have access to whatever twist you like, so you're not stuck with the typical 1:9-1:10" of the 243.
I agree - the 6.5 Creed really wasn't anything which turned my crank. What it does have, which I appreciate, as an advantage over the 6mm version is barrel life. For a hunting rifle, you won't likely be terrible concerned with barrel life. I have a Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 creed, and another in 6 creed, plus that Seekins Havak in 6 creed. Nothing magic, just a short action cartridge which can push a ~105-110grn pill to ~3000fps... I started out with Hornady brass and WLP's, converted over to Lapua brass with BR4's. The 108 ELD's shoot incredibly well, but I get a little tighter with the 105 Hybrids. I expect either bullet would do the job nicely for your objective of pronghorn.
In a custom rifle where you can pick the twist, you probably don't gain anything by going 6 creed over 243win other than barrel life. Either will have the appropriate twist, and you'll be able to pick a throat to let you run the heavier bullets in either. I will admit, I did order a new Savage barrel for one of my Striker's, to convert it from 243win to 6 creed, but really only because I am shooting a lot more 6 creed right now than 243win.
In 243win, I run Lapua Palma brass to give me small primers, necked down. Currently, you're stuck doing the exact same thing in 6 creed, as Lapua isn't making 6 brass yet - we have to neck down 6.5 creed brass. The hornady 6 creed brass is very consistent, but it HAS to be annealed every other loading, if not every loading. My SD's went through the roof on my 3x firing - not handy to realize at a match!
I agree - the 6.5 Creed really wasn't anything which turned my crank. What it does have, which I appreciate, as an advantage over the 6mm version is barrel life. For a hunting rifle, you won't likely be terrible concerned with barrel life. I have a Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 creed, and another in 6 creed, plus that Seekins Havak in 6 creed. Nothing magic, just a short action cartridge which can push a ~105-110grn pill to ~3000fps... I started out with Hornady brass and WLP's, converted over to Lapua brass with BR4's. The 108 ELD's shoot incredibly well, but I get a little tighter with the 105 Hybrids. I expect either bullet would do the job nicely for your objective of pronghorn.
In a custom rifle where you can pick the twist, you probably don't gain anything by going 6 creed over 243win other than barrel life. Either will have the appropriate twist, and you'll be able to pick a throat to let you run the heavier bullets in either. I will admit, I did order a new Savage barrel for one of my Striker's, to convert it from 243win to 6 creed, but really only because I am shooting a lot more 6 creed right now than 243win.
In 243win, I run Lapua Palma brass to give me small primers, necked down. Currently, you're stuck doing the exact same thing in 6 creed, as Lapua isn't making 6 brass yet - we have to neck down 6.5 creed brass. The hornady 6 creed brass is very consistent, but it HAS to be annealed every other loading, if not every loading. My SD's went through the roof on my 3x firing - not handy to realize at a match!
05-11-2018, 07:06 PM
#5
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18,382
I've said this before NM but are you absolutely sure you're not a gun writer in disguise. In fairness though, your posts contain way more usable information than just about any gun writer I've read. Kudos, Again!!
05-20-2020, 02:58 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,905
I searched today for something else I had written here and stumbled across this post, and since necroposting seems to be all the rage these days, and since I was only about 8mos into the 6 creed at the time of original posting, and only 4 mos into my Seekins rifle, I thought I might offer an update on my journey with the 6 Creed.
I’ve since sold my RPR’s, but have burned through 4 barrels now chambered for 6 creedmoor - that original RPR (sold, not replaced), a Rock Creek Barrel which was original to my Seekins, my first of three Bartleins (so far) chambered to the Seekins, and my first of two Proof Research barrels for an LFAR (also so far) which I built for precision rifle matches. A touch over 5,000 rounds all told in 6 creed between those 4 barrels in the last ~2 years between matches, a little coyote calling, taking a couple nice whitetail bucks, and practice.
I’m still predominantly shooting the 105 Hybrids, and only shooting these for matches. I took my buck this past winter and the winter prior with my match loads - same result as any 243win or AI load I have used; near instant death, for a quick anchor and no blood trailing. I have shot about 500 108 ELDm’s in practice, trying to save a little money here and there. I’ve been happy to find H4350 I’m sufficient quantities, but also developed a Reloader 16 load in case I ever can’t find 4350.
I’m starting with the 105’s 8 thou off of the lands, but the leade eroded pretty quickly. I haven’t been chasing the lands, but for these last 3 barrels, I have started losing velocity by 1200 rounds, fast enough by 1400 that I have taken them off. Just can’t risk instability in my velocity at matches. The barrels still shoot under 3/4moa, but not reliably under 1/2 as they had in the early life. I expect I could chase the lands and pump powder to keep my velocity up, but it’s not a long term game. For all of my barrels, I have found two nodes between 40.0 and 42.4, such I can pick a low speed or high speed option which still fits under the PRS speed limit. I have not seen pressure signs even as high as 42.4, at least not when my ammo was dry (rain is a different story), and there does appear to be a node up there, but it’s high enough pressure to cause issues in the rain, and fast enough to break the speed limit, so I haven’t pursued it.
Lapua dropped 6 creed brass about a year and a half ago, so I no longer have to neck down Lapua 6.5 creed. I’ve been mostly using Hornady brass again, and even though that first batch went wonky at 3x firing, they were great after only annealing that one time. My second batch of Hornady held strong to 7 firings without annealing, and I’m planning to keep loading it for my second gas gun barrel. It’s notably harder than originally, with higher seating pressure, but the SD’s are still holding single digit, the groups are still very tiny, and the pockets aren’t yet loose. So I’m much more confident now I’m using hornady brass for my match loads - at discounted prices for the Hornady brass, I would need my Lapua batches to last around 30 firings or more, and I’m just not expecting that to pan out. Several other outlets now make 6 creed brass also, some in LRP and some in SRP. I still can’t pretend I shoot well enough to tell the difference on target, but I do know that’s a reason why Lapua brass lasts longer than LRP Hornady. I do have to trim my Hornady brass a bit more than I do Lapua, so I know it’s growing more.
I likely may never buy another 243win. The 6 creed has proven to be everything I have asked the 243win to be for years and years - no fireforming to 243AI, no unusual twist rates, no mag length issues with heavy/long bullets.
I’ve since sold my RPR’s, but have burned through 4 barrels now chambered for 6 creedmoor - that original RPR (sold, not replaced), a Rock Creek Barrel which was original to my Seekins, my first of three Bartleins (so far) chambered to the Seekins, and my first of two Proof Research barrels for an LFAR (also so far) which I built for precision rifle matches. A touch over 5,000 rounds all told in 6 creed between those 4 barrels in the last ~2 years between matches, a little coyote calling, taking a couple nice whitetail bucks, and practice.
I’m still predominantly shooting the 105 Hybrids, and only shooting these for matches. I took my buck this past winter and the winter prior with my match loads - same result as any 243win or AI load I have used; near instant death, for a quick anchor and no blood trailing. I have shot about 500 108 ELDm’s in practice, trying to save a little money here and there. I’ve been happy to find H4350 I’m sufficient quantities, but also developed a Reloader 16 load in case I ever can’t find 4350.
I’m starting with the 105’s 8 thou off of the lands, but the leade eroded pretty quickly. I haven’t been chasing the lands, but for these last 3 barrels, I have started losing velocity by 1200 rounds, fast enough by 1400 that I have taken them off. Just can’t risk instability in my velocity at matches. The barrels still shoot under 3/4moa, but not reliably under 1/2 as they had in the early life. I expect I could chase the lands and pump powder to keep my velocity up, but it’s not a long term game. For all of my barrels, I have found two nodes between 40.0 and 42.4, such I can pick a low speed or high speed option which still fits under the PRS speed limit. I have not seen pressure signs even as high as 42.4, at least not when my ammo was dry (rain is a different story), and there does appear to be a node up there, but it’s high enough pressure to cause issues in the rain, and fast enough to break the speed limit, so I haven’t pursued it.
Lapua dropped 6 creed brass about a year and a half ago, so I no longer have to neck down Lapua 6.5 creed. I’ve been mostly using Hornady brass again, and even though that first batch went wonky at 3x firing, they were great after only annealing that one time. My second batch of Hornady held strong to 7 firings without annealing, and I’m planning to keep loading it for my second gas gun barrel. It’s notably harder than originally, with higher seating pressure, but the SD’s are still holding single digit, the groups are still very tiny, and the pockets aren’t yet loose. So I’m much more confident now I’m using hornady brass for my match loads - at discounted prices for the Hornady brass, I would need my Lapua batches to last around 30 firings or more, and I’m just not expecting that to pan out. Several other outlets now make 6 creed brass also, some in LRP and some in SRP. I still can’t pretend I shoot well enough to tell the difference on target, but I do know that’s a reason why Lapua brass lasts longer than LRP Hornady. I do have to trim my Hornady brass a bit more than I do Lapua, so I know it’s growing more.
I likely may never buy another 243win. The 6 creed has proven to be everything I have asked the 243win to be for years and years - no fireforming to 243AI, no unusual twist rates, no mag length issues with heavy/long bullets.
05-21-2020, 05:56 AM
#7
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,746
NM you're a bucket full of information. I personally enjoy reading your post. I have a .243, a 6.5 CM and a 7-08. All are accurate rifles and would easily suffice for what the BigUncle has in mind for it. But bar none, my 6.5 CM will out shoot either the .243 or the 7-08 all day long. Now I'm not sure if its magic or is it because I spent a lot of time load developing the round using both the ladder test and the Statterlee method (which you helped me with) or could it be just magic!! . The .243 and 7-08 I just loaded until I found a load that shot a couple good groups and stuck with that. All 3 are production rifles.
I read the OP has no inkling to go with the 6.5 caliber but if he wants another great option for his intended purpose I hear the 6.5-284 is a pretty awesome cartridge.
I read the OP has no inkling to go with the 6.5 caliber but if he wants another great option for his intended purpose I hear the 6.5-284 is a pretty awesome cartridge.
05-21-2020, 10:33 AM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,905
I appreciate the kind words!
I too have enjoyed the 6.5-284, but admittedly, I circled back to the 284 Shehane (blown out Win). Longer throat life and considerably more bullet weight - only downside is a bit more recoil. But getting 180’s to 2900-2950 is a reality, albeit hard on brass. For hunting at low round count per annum, yeah, flip a coin, as the 6.5-284 gets the job done with less recoil, and less specialization than the Shehane.
Either, of course, is a commitment to a long action cartridge, and a lot of powder use. I expect it’s a factor of 1) living in KS, where all big game hunts mean out of state trips, and 2) growing up at the end of the magnumitus era, but I’ve really grown to not have much use for long action, standard bolt face cartridges. For deer and smaller, I’m going to use a short action cartridge in a 6-7mm bullet dia. For out of state hunts on anything larger than deer, I’m going to use a 30cal Magnum, MAYBE still considering 7mm’s, and if yes to 7mm’s, then adding 6.5 PRC to that list for certain game... Maybe... I’ve even spent a little time soul-searching over this, as it certainly seems as though something is wrong with me to not find utility in any of these long action cartridges. Not getting rid of any of them any time soon, but also not taking them afield much either.
I too have enjoyed the 6.5-284, but admittedly, I circled back to the 284 Shehane (blown out Win). Longer throat life and considerably more bullet weight - only downside is a bit more recoil. But getting 180’s to 2900-2950 is a reality, albeit hard on brass. For hunting at low round count per annum, yeah, flip a coin, as the 6.5-284 gets the job done with less recoil, and less specialization than the Shehane.
Either, of course, is a commitment to a long action cartridge, and a lot of powder use. I expect it’s a factor of 1) living in KS, where all big game hunts mean out of state trips, and 2) growing up at the end of the magnumitus era, but I’ve really grown to not have much use for long action, standard bolt face cartridges. For deer and smaller, I’m going to use a short action cartridge in a 6-7mm bullet dia. For out of state hunts on anything larger than deer, I’m going to use a 30cal Magnum, MAYBE still considering 7mm’s, and if yes to 7mm’s, then adding 6.5 PRC to that list for certain game... Maybe... I’ve even spent a little time soul-searching over this, as it certainly seems as though something is wrong with me to not find utility in any of these long action cartridges. Not getting rid of any of them any time soon, but also not taking them afield much either.
05-21-2020, 01:47 PM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,905
Neither a bad choice.
Frankly, I wouldn’t dismiss the 6PPC for hunting deer and smaller game. While the PPC is a bit slower, it’s not so dissimilar from the 243LBC I built last year (6.5 grendel necked down to 6), and I can’t think of anything to fault about a 100-108grn bullet at 2800-2900fps for whitetail hunting. Naturally, many PPC’s were and are built with a slower twist than the long, heavy 100+ pills would want, but they don’t have to be. I built the 243 LBC rifle with PRS competition practice and hunting in mind - as I adore the idea of a 105 at 2850fps using under 30grn of powder for deer.
A very, very similar cartridge is also coming to market soon - semipublic at this point. Hornady is releasing a 6mm ARC, I believe I have posted about it here, recently. It’s a shortened 6.5 Grendel case with the shoulder pushed back, I’d expect exceptionally similar internal capacity and performance to the 6 PPC.
Better barrel life than 6 creed, for sure.
Frankly, I wouldn’t dismiss the 6PPC for hunting deer and smaller game. While the PPC is a bit slower, it’s not so dissimilar from the 243LBC I built last year (6.5 grendel necked down to 6), and I can’t think of anything to fault about a 100-108grn bullet at 2800-2900fps for whitetail hunting. Naturally, many PPC’s were and are built with a slower twist than the long, heavy 100+ pills would want, but they don’t have to be. I built the 243 LBC rifle with PRS competition practice and hunting in mind - as I adore the idea of a 105 at 2850fps using under 30grn of powder for deer.
A very, very similar cartridge is also coming to market soon - semipublic at this point. Hornady is releasing a 6mm ARC, I believe I have posted about it here, recently. It’s a shortened 6.5 Grendel case with the shoulder pushed back, I’d expect exceptionally similar internal capacity and performance to the 6 PPC.
Better barrel life than 6 creed, for sure.