long range rifle
 

I'm of the hankering to get into long range shooting. (1000 yds or less) not the really really long stuff. I know 1000 yards is still a long way.
I'm lefty but that really doesn't pose a problem as I don't really need a LH action. Right now I'm just trying to get a feel for rifles and chamberings from those of you that do this sort of thing. Now I don't plan on hunting with this rig but I don't want one of those 35 lb rifles shooting emongous bullets.
Advice on scopes too would help.
Lets hear what you got to say.

280 AI, 26-30 nosler, 300 win mag. if just target shooting a 308 will do it and have lots of barrel life, make it a 10-12 pound rifle, the longer the barrel the better. spend good money on glass!
RR

Without hunting on the table, 1,000yrd shooting, if I had a guilty pleasure for my next build, it'd be a Surgeon 591 chambered for 6 Dasher, J Allen chassis, NF ATACR, Jewel HVR, and I'd be giddy...

I though for sure one of you guys would mention the 6.5 Creedmoor! I'm hearing some good stuff about it and from what I understand the 264" bullets are pretty good ballistically.
Les Baer was building a rifle for my cousin who unfortunately passed before receiving it. They were good friends and Les told him he could get an AR platform to shoot as good or better than a bolt action! This really surprised me.

The old man's 7mm-08 AR is amazingly accurate but that thing was about as far from cheap as one could get in an AR. He had it built for long range hog shots. The .338fed he built is pretty darn sporty too. So I agree completely with Les. AR's can be and are built with some incredible accuracy. My little Wilson Combat factory produced .223 AR is picky about the loads but once you land on the load it likes it can be a very tight grouping little machine itself.

As to your 6.5creed question, yes the creed has amassed a pretty good following and yes it is primarily because of the ballistic advantages inherent in the .264 bullet choices available. Not to mention it doesn't knock the holy crap out of you every time you pull the trigger. But for just target and no hunting, I too would go for the 6 dasher. But if you were to drop $3-4k on a well built AR and may want to pull some 500-600 yard shots on a whitetail, I would opt for the creed. Or if you decided you wanted to go after some speed goats where ranges can be 0 to however far you can see the damn thing those little creeds are pretty good lope droppers too.

As to glass, that is more of a personal decision than I can get in to. When it comes to long range optics, your own eyes have to be the judge as to what is enough for you. The long range scope that is perfect for me may not even be in the ball park for your vision. Where all of them meet is at the price point though. Any good quality long range optics will be expensive as I'm sure you already know. I have a couple of scopes sitting on custom built rifles that cost almost twice what the rifles did and those things were far from cheap.

What's your total budget for rifle and scope? That will help tailor some of the advice you'll get from others.

yeah budget here is going to be your factor
I started shooting 1,000 yard matches back in the late 80's
how serious do you PLAN to get, as its sometimes cheaper to cry once and buy once, than buy something now and then want else later on
about any basic center fire rifle caliber can get there, some just do so better
a 300 win mag is a good basic get you there with LOTS of proven info out there for it to help you learn
being a lefty isn't a big deal in LONG range work as most things shots are NOT in a rush, so loading one at a time and even if you have to use a right hand bolt, isn't the end of the world,
which brings you back to $$/budget
have the funds a rifle can be built for you any way you want it
\ if you go to any 1,000 yard match, you will hear a LOT of guys say this caliber is BEST or THIS one is better and blah blah blah LOL
people, will always like what they like and push it
YOUR the one that is going to be buying and paying for things, BUY what you want, want suggestions on calibers, read some match results and calibers used to get there scores
you will, quickly come up with a short list of the most scoring calibers
and then decide on what fits you better
recoil, HOW easy or not getting ammo will be(brass and such) you can then look at costs differences in calibers too(heads brass) and go from there

I'm likely thinking in the $2500-$3500 range maybe $4000 for the rifle/scope.
But like I said I'm just toying with it right now. I have so many places in PA where I can shoot easily 1000 yards. Just on the weekend I have to keep my ears open for those darn ATV riders. Seems like they're everywhere anymore.
I can kick my butt for selling my bull barreled Rem 700 in 7-08. Several times I punched 3/8" 5 shot groups at 200 yards (not 100). But I quit shooting silhoulette and traded it off.

I like the 300 win mag in whatever your flavor of stock and the night Force brenchrest

Thanks

Buck

Will you be handloading for it or shooting factory ammo?

I've been handloading for over 50 years. About the only thing I shoot that I don't handload for are my rimfire rifles and pistols! So yes I would be handloading.

Your options are endless then...I wouldn't do a Creed since it's only advantage is good factory ammo.

A 7mm WSM or 6.5 gap4s would be good ones...

You could set up on one of those powerlines up at camp and take a pretty long poke!


Since you said you don't plan to hunt with it I would look on the lighter side. It'll be cheaper to load, and easier on the shoulder.


Lots of people shoot the .308 to a grand. Although it's kind of a "boring" choice.


The 6.5s are popular.


Lots of good options available since you handload as well.


-Jake

That thought had crossed my mind then I could have you go fetch it for me...:happy0001:

Or maybe I could just use my .45-70 and spine them at 1000 yards! Not sure if I could get enough elevation on the scope however.

Hey, if you can hit it, I'll figure out a way to get it out of the woods lol


As long as you shoot it on the high side, we'll just give it a push and catch up with it at the bottom.


-Jake

I've tumbled many a deer and a few bear down off those mountain sides. I even rode the back of a nice 8 point I shot up there one year. Bears don't really roll. They sort of ooze down the hill like a big glob of jelly. And the bigger ones have a tendency to knock over a dead tree or two if they hit one just right! So you have to watch your top knot!!

Used to work for Desert Tech (formerly Desert Tactical Arms). No current affiliation and not necessarily recommending, but I will mention that it's possible to find some bullpup LR rifles that have excellent triggers. The DT stuff we were putting out had adjustable triggers that could be set as low as 1 pound. Very crisp for a bullpup. "Bullpup" configuration gives you the same length barrel (for accuracy), while still giving you an overall shorter rifle. Also pretty cool that you could covert between different calibers. For $1500 you could essentially have a new rifle. Shoot 7 WSM, 300 Win, 308, whatever you want. That said, their rifles are less of a true hunter and more of a tactical system...

The Desert Tech rifles are definitely badass...but that $1500 number is on top of the base $5000 rifle...so essentially a person can get two rifles for $6500...

Having been a high power competition shooter and being a left hand shooter utilizing right hand bolt rifles my entire highpower career since 1973 I understand your frustration and have already experienced the problems you are going to find.

FWIW you can get by with a right hand bolt rifle utilizing iron sights just fine. In competition you have to get off 10 rounds in 60 seconds from the sitting position at 200 yards and prone position requires 10 rounds in 70 seconds at 300 yards and the irons don't interfere with getting your hand to the bolt knob.

In the last few years I got two left hand Mauser 3000 rifles from a good friend's estate who also shot lefty but due to a wreck in 2013 my prone shooting has apparently ended as I have had C5, C6 and C7 fused in my neck.

You are going to need optics and shooting lefty with a bolt gun and a scope is not a good combination if you are contemplating fast second shots because the scope prevents rapid bolt manipulation by a lefty so I rethought my options and bought a left hand Tikka rifle. I had triple bypass surgery last Oct 2 so I haven't been able to get the Tikka up and running so to speak though I have the scope and just got the rings for it.

Caliber is iffy as well depending on how much shooting you are planning. As pointed out by others above some are barrel burners that will take out a barrel in about 500 rounds where other calibers you should see a 5000 round barrel life. My first choice for long barrel life for long range shooting would be a 30.06 with 175 gr Sierra MatchKing bullets and Vihta Vouri 150 or 160 propellant. This propellant is generally cooler burning and not as bad on your barrels.


As a rule the smaller the bore diameter(under 30 cal) the shorter the barrel life so you must make a decision on which you can live it.

Hunting at long range presents a even harder challenge as after 400 yards it becomes more critical to know THE EXACT RANGE to your target in order to elevate your chances of obtaining a first shot hit. Thus you are going to need the best range finder you can find.

Here's why. Lets say you have a 30 cal rifle and your handloads are chonographing 50 fps extreme velocity spread. At 1000 yards that will give you a group 20" high so even if you know the exact range your ammo is likely to let you down.

You are not likely to buy commercial ammo that will deliver you a 20 fps extreme spread so it is critical you hand-load for best possible groups and minimum vertical stringing thus you are going to get into reloading and develop the skills to load ammo into the 20 FPS or less range.

Your scope is going to be a major decision because internal adjustment scopes can be iffy in the repeatability range. Determining repeatability is simple, finding the scope that will do it is the problem.

Evaluating your scope procedure:

Zero at 300 yards and put up a new target and shoot a 3 shot group. Then run your elevation up 20 clicks, right 20 clicks, down 20 clicks and left 20 clicks and shoot the 4th shot. Plot that shot at the bench. Next run scope down 20 clicks, left 20 clicks up 20 clicks and right 20 clicks and shoot and plot the 5th shot. The up 20 left 20 down 20 and right 20 clicks and shoot sixth shot and finally down 20, right 20, up 20 and left 20 and shoot your 7th shot and plot it.

Evaluate as follows: Lets say in 5 continuous shots your rifle will print 2" at 300 yards but your six shot group is 6 inches which is well likely to be the case you know your scope may well let you down by moving the elevation up and down.

Internal adjustment scopes should be mounted so that with the scope in the mechanical zero range, you have it printing shots very close at 300 yards as internal adjustment scopes generally get iffy in the extreme ranges if the adjustment module is way off center inside the tube.

Determining Mechanical Zero of your scope. Back up elevation to the top of the travel till the adjustment stops. Then run your scope down all the way to the bottom till it stops. Lets say that is 120 clicks so run you scope back up 60 clicks and you are in the middle of the adjustment range. Now do the same thing on your windage and center that as well.


Then mount the scope and shoot it at 50 yards and see how far your point of impact is from the point of aim. If the natural mechanical zero is off you need rings with the ability to move the scope to achieve center impact WITHOUT TOUCHING THE SCOPE KNOBS. The only ones I know that will achieve this are the Burris Signature Zee rings with a box of assorted shims so you can move the scope to get the POA as close to the POI as you can before you move the knobs.

Once you get "IN" at 50 yards move to 100, then 200 and 300 yards and see if your groups are going walkabout. This is a lot of work but if you want reliable first shot on at long range the internal adjustment scope has to be near the middle of its mechanical zero.

OK lets say you have it figured to 300 yards change the inserts to raise the rear of the scope and lower the front of the scope till it is on at 600 yards. As a medium range rifle I would set it for 600 yards on mechanical zero. If you know all your shots are going to be at 900 to 1200 yards you need to work a mechanical zero there.

Case in point lets say you have a good zero at 600 yards and you get a shot at 800 yards. You will have to come up about 40 clicks. If you are zeroed at 800 yards your come ups will be more. Get a Sierra ballistics program and plot your come ups . For openers here is are changes with a 175 gr bullet loaded at 2700 FPS.

Zero at 600 yards and shot comes up at 800 yards you have to aim OVER 78"
Zero at 600 yards and shot comes up at 1000 yards you have to aim over 222"

Zero at 800 yards and shot comes up at 1000 yards aim over 124"
Zero at 800 yards and shot comes up closer at 600 yards you aim 58" low.

Obviously if your scope does not have the available clicks you are going to be having a problem quickly and most scopes don't.

Finally I have a target on a frame 4 feet wide and 8 feet high. I set it up down range and after choosing my zero range I will cover the entire board with newsprint (end rolls from newspaper company) and put a target near the top. Lets say I have rifle zeroed at 600 yards and I want the ACTUAL DROPS at longer ranges I shoot 3 rounds at 600, three rounds at 700, three rounds at 800 and I know the exact come ups by measuring to the center of each 3 shot group.

Basically this is exactly how it is done at Aberdeen Proving Ground except we had a target 32 feet high and 32 feet wide. When I conducted the Technical Feasibility Testing of the M16A1E1 (adopted as the M16A2) we shot dispersions (6-10 shot groups) with sight set at 200 meters and we went all the way back to 800 meters without touching the sights. We just raised the target to about 28 feet up and thus we captured all shots and could determine all drops completely and not be concerned with the accuracy of the iron sight and how much it moved each time.

Bottom line is getting reliable hits at longer ranges is a IFFY situation but can be done if you do the homework.

So, shooting out to a 1000 yards, you say not for hunting so I assume some type of competition? I see you're in Western PA. if you're interested in competition the discipline will somewhat dictate the weight of the rifle. Most are based on light gun, 17lb's and under, and Heavy gun anything over 17lb's. There are some variations to that rule also. Ridgway 1000 yard silhouette call a light gun 12lb's and less and heavy is up to 17lbs. SouthFork calls a light gun 12lbs and less and heavy up to 20lbs.

With a budget like you're talking about you can do a build with a nice custom action and some real good glass. you'll be pushing the 4K$ limit but it's doable. Glass will be the determining factor, Used NightForce BR's can be found for $1000 or a little less, a Comp leupold can be found in the $700 range. A real nice find would be a Nightforce 15-55, the 2013 models can be had for $1600 if you're not in a hurry, keep watching classifieds.

6 Dashers and 300WSM's seem to be the dominate cases used in 1000 yard comps. of course there are many others being used, the 6BRA is gaining a lot of popularity. A strait 6BR is an excellent choice, barrel life is great and it has enough umph to knock down the steel at Ridgway. Although sometimes a coyote takes a mid to high hit to be have reliable knockdowns. The WSM is fun and hammers all the steel at all distances but recoil is a factor when trying to see impact, it's doable and I've been very successful with it but my Dasher usually get the nod at Ridgway. Paper at the shorter distances, like the local ground hog matches, 6BR is hard to beat, but once again that big 30 makes nice sized holes for seeing and making a quick follow up shot.

If i had to choose one, do all, mid to long range comp cartridge, i'd give the nod to the Dasher, not as good of barrel life as a 6BR or WSM, but it has enough power for steel and has proven itself time and time again on paper. And, it's considerably cheaper to shoot than the 30's.

The attached photo is a 17lb Dasher with a Tuner.

My shooting partner is a lefty and always shot rh guns and just about everything else. I think he always has the advantage on bolt guns He works the rh bolt with his right hand trigger finger and cheeks never come off the gun.

Thanks

Buck

Similar situation here...
 

I’m also wanting to get in to the semi-long range game and after about a year of research have kind of set my heart on the Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5CM. The question I am posing is; while I will be primarily shooting at/under 1,000yrds, I also want to hunt occasionally. I understand the weight of this rifle loaded is around 14lbs and have handled one (empty) a few times, but I have not shot it. I do have glass already purchased (Vortex Viper HST 6-24x50). I grew up in MD so the majority of my hunting experience is on private land, sitting still, <=500yrds with .243s and 30-30s, and that’s against the mid-sized frame of an “East Coast whitetail”. If I wanted to include Oryx, Elk, Antelope, Blacktails or Mules, would the RPR in 6.5CM with the aforementioned glass be a valid option? (Again most of my shooting time will be on a range).

Look at the options Savage has... and the cartridges they offer... great starting point!

I have taken a bunch of elk and a handful of oryx and although the 6.5 CM will work it is on the very light end to take that size game consistently and cleanly. You would be best advised to use a different rifle with more power and lighter weight for those hunts.

Your choice of rifle/scope will be fine for the range and for medium size (deer, pronghorn, etc.) game as long as you will not have to walk far or shoot quickly.

I have never heard of anyone hunting mules. That will probably make some rancher very unhappy with you.