mrbb

OK I am going to have a different view here , as I was an FFL holder(gun store owner) for a long time
I will admit I am NOT up to spec on military transfers, so please take all this with a grain of slat I am NOT defending anyone here, just adding info I know USED to be when I was in business
lets start off with this
\ FIRST OFF< the gun is NOT your's until its registered in your name
payment of gun is between YOU and who ever you paid, NOT the current store that has it
next said store does NOT have to sell (paperwork) gun to you, they have the right to refuse your business, NOTHING illegal about this
NOW they cannot legally KEEP a gun that is NOT there's as it is will more or less property of the registered owner of said gun(who you paid most likely) its there's until its legally transferred to YOUR name.
THAT said, the dealer that has gun NOW< should be sending gun BACK to the rightful owner, and then they can ship to the FFL that WILL handle your case
the odds of the BATF doing anything here will be slim to none, as honestly, the BAD gun shop, didn't really break any of there rules
NOW if there legally copying and hold military records and that is against the LAW< that won't be a BATF issue' that will be with the state or federal government that the law is under, and would need to be enforced by that department!
ALL business's can refuse to do business with anyone its there OPTION and right!

you maybe taking this more personal than anything here(NOT bashing on you)
and your just missing that this gun shop is run by folks that DON"T want your business.
OR they are also NOT sure of the correct way to sell you(military personal) a gun and DON"T want to make a mistake
they CANNOT TAKE your word that ALL IS GOOD< that can get them into BIG trouble if your wrong
and trust me, over the 20+ yrs I sold guns, I had countless customers tell me things HOT and bothered that I WAS WRONG< when I was not
and I am sure, I have been wrong a few times myself, as rules with the BATF changed so often, and NOT kidding here, I could talk to and ask to two BATF agents the same question and get two totally different answers all in the same day!

and the killer is, IF I did something wrong based on THERE INFO< it was still MY fault and NOT there's

SO, on this side of the coin, I can see where a dealer isn't going to want to take a risk if they THINK its not correct
again, they legally cannot HOLD your gun hostage, as its legally NOT there gun, its , YES< logged into there store, but another FFL holder cannot MAKE them give the gun to them to do a transfer for you.
NOT saying they couldn't, BUT if anything went wrong, it opens them up for a BIG hassle, they maybe just don't want or need, over a gun sale that they didn't even make the sale on! IF you follow here

Again, I am Not defending them, just offering you up a different site of things here to think about!

I would contact the dealer that sold you said gun, get them to get it back and then ship to a dealer you have READY to do the transfer KNOWING all details here.

The BATF is FAR from a great organization to get HELP from, not bashing them , just telling you based on countless experiences I had with them!

best of luck to you here, sorry its this hard to buy a simple gun!
but don't get your hopes up sop or BATF is going to step up and make things better any time soon for you!
just the sad truth here!

SilverbulletM70

mrbb, thank your for your post and insight. A lot of things you point out have been discussed or clarified through this thread. I think you missed a few key points along the way but I know it was a long winded rambling rant...

Some things I want to make clear though:

I purchased a rifle from these jokers just a few weeks prior with all the same paperwork and credentials they were provided again this time. Nothing changed.

These guys are (or should be) very familiar with the military process of purchasing and transferring weapons as military members are their main clientele. The big difference is they are used to dealing with Army forms and less informed on the other branches, but again, I just went through the process with them weeks prior.

I never demanded anything, other than my license/military ID card back and that they not photocopy my ID or anyone else's explaining it is against Federal law. Not expecting them to take my word for it alone, I pulled it up on my phone and encouraged then to do a 2 second google search on the subject and verify for themselves (they were standing in front of a computer). Instead of taking 2 seconds, they brag about having hundreds on file, tell me I know nothing (not knowing anything of my background), brags about being a discharged MP and thinks that's earned himself an honorary J.D. For my efforts in remaining calm and professional through the unprofessional and rude interaction with them, I was kicked out of the store with my daughter in tow and after that, yes...it became personal.

Fully understand they can deny service for any reason and that is their prerogative. Wished they would have just said so and not tried to blame it on other things that weren't correct (drivers license being expired, which wasn't - not having a copy of my official orders - they were and said so on the forms, being rude and unprofessional from the start, telling lies, etc., etc.)

Local law enforcement can't do anything to enforce Federal law.

The ATF has been extremely helpful in all of this and it took their involvement to make this right (send the rifle back to CDNN, tell them to stop copying military ID forms and remind them they could lose their FFL if they are found to be in possession of copies during any site visits)

This establishment could also be barred for all military personnel in the region (all branches) if they fail to stop breaking federal law and as mentioned before, military members are their main clientele. Should that happen, they would likely end up out of business.

Nomercy448

Kinda sad to see a former FFL licensee claiming anything about firearms "registration." The 4473 is NOT a registration document, only a record of transfer, and in most states, there is no registration whatsoever, so a lot of the above is misguided.

What you're really facing is a shop who 1) doesn't understand the forms of legal identification he's required to accept, and 2) doesn't understand the laws around record keeping. I can appreciate simple mistakes - aka being unaware it's illegal to copy military ID's, heck, I've made the same mistake in the past when making a firearms sale. Once I became aware, I rectified my records, live and learn. But the fact he's not accepting legal forms of identification, and breaking federal law, well... He does have some learning to do...

SilverbulletM70

Update - CDNN just provided me with new tracking info. which luckily means I don't have to deal with the rifle that was in the possession of Weaponized Armament. Hats off to CDNN for making this frustrating ordeal as painless as possible on their end. Especially grateful to Michelle over there.

mrbb

glad to see my mis use of a simple word, gets your attention
registered or??
the gun is said property of the seller till transferred to NEW owner, thu the form, was all my point was

sconnyhunter

I would hazard a guess that the gun shop may have been trying to sell that gun out from underneath you.
To another customer, who was willing to pay more than you did.

But I could be wrong.

MudderChuck

Things change, they change from base to base and from one command to the other, but seeing as he is military, normally they require the firearm (of any type) be registered with them before pickup. You used to get a registration card at the base, much like a drivers licences. Used to be you'd get a form from your command and along with your receipt, you'd be issued a registration card then go pick up your firearm. But like I said things change, but usually change for the worse.

I never handed my ID card to anybody non military, even the Cops, I always had two fingers holding on hard. They could read it, but couldn't take it.

bronko22000

Here is a cut and paste from the Navy.mil site:
(start) WASHINGTON (NNS) -- Commander, Navy Installations Command issued an announcement reminding all personnel that the photocopying of military identification cards and common access cards (CAC) is strictly prohibited, Nov. 1.

There have been recent incidents reported of commercial establishments photocopying U.S. government identification to verify military affiliation or provide government rates for service. These incidents are a violation of Title 18, U.S. Code, Part I, Chapter 33, Section 701 and are punishable by fine and/or imprisonment.

Although commercial establishments may request to see military/government identification, they may not photocopy or duplicate it in any way. Many military personnel and commercial establishments are unaware of the prohibition and the reasons it exists, which results in this being a fairly common practice.

The only exception to this policy, covered in DOD Instruction 1000.13, Section 6.1.7, is that civilian and military medical providers are authorized to photocopy military ID as proof of insurance for the purposes of providing medical care to DoD beneficiaries. (end)

I like the part of this that states "punishable by fine or imprisonment". This clown should receive both.