FFL horror story - PSA/Rant
01-03-2018, 09:09 AM
#1
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: CO
Posts: 79
FFL horror story - PSA/Rant
Posting this as a bit of a PSA and a rant. I've been dealing with a horrible FFL for the past week (Weaponized Armament in Colorado) and these guys are the most unprofessional and uneducated FFL I've ever come across. I've been working with the local PD, BBB, ATF, OSI and reached out to the local news. There are 2 parts to this story: 1) they are holding my rifle hostage refusing to release it to anyone after it's been paid in full and 2) they are breaking federal law by photocopying military members ID cards and they claimed to have hundreds on file. Both of these are relatively easy fixes and on the right track to be rectified but still frustrating to have to deal with it at all. 
Long story short, I'm active duty military (legal career field) and have purchased several firearms from various local FFLs, including the jokers mentioned above. I'm very familiar with the process and paperwork required for active duty military personnel. I showed up with all required paperwork only to be told by the owner he doesn't think the paperwork is good enough anymore. This isn't backed by any state/federal law or statute, just him deciding to be a prick and demand additional info and make me jump through hoops. This same owner is also breaking federal law by photocopying military ID cards and keeping them on file. He refuses to process my paperwork for the rifle I paid for in full and kicked me and my 7 year old daughter out of his store.
For those interested in the long winded version, I'll paste most of the email I sent to the ATF:
"Thanks for taking my call this morning. Based on our discussion, attached please find all of the information which was provided to Weaponized Armament when I tried to pick up the rifle (paid in full online ahead of time) along with my drivers license and military ID, which they broke the law and scanned. Relevant dates/facts:
My rifle was delivered to Weaponized Armament early in the day Thursday, 28 Dec. I called them later that day to see when would be a good time to pick up my rifle. They were instantly rude on the phone and asked if someone called to tell me it was ready for pick up. I told them no, but saw it was delivered and was just calling ahead to see if there was a convenient time to get it. They wouldn't give an ETA other than, "probably tomorrow".
Friday, 29 Dec I was leaving work for the day and still had not heard from them stating I could pick up my rifle. I picked up my daughter from daycare and stalled for time and still hadn't heard anything. I called them again and asked if I could pick up my rifle. I was rudely told it would be ready in "about 90 minutes". I showed up 90 minutes later with all paperwork attached here (same required paperwork I've used to pick up several other hunting rifles without incident). Even though I had all required documentation, they refused my service which is what was so frustrating and then at the end of the interaction, realized they were breaking federal law which just made them that much more upset with me for pointing that out. This was all recorded as well if there is ever any doubt as to exactly what was said and how this all went down, assuming they didn't delete it all after the fact. (they are making me out to be the bad guy to the ATF in the first conversation with them)
As soon as I walked in the door I was rudely asked why I was there and I told them I was there to pick up my rifle. I handed them the paperwork, my drivers license and my military ID card. The guy behind the counter threw my drivers license back and me and told me they couldn’t do anything for me because it was expired. It was very obvious at this point they were going out of their way to make this as frustrating and as painful as possible. I reminded them (as I've gone through this with them before) it's not truly expired while I'm active duty. They then looked at my military ID card and asked "how do we know this is current"? I thought it was a joke and laughed pointing out the expiration date on the ID. The owner comes over and says "that doesn't mean it’s current, just shows when it expires". I ignored him and finished filling out the background paperwork form.
After I completed the form and gave that back to them, they tell me I don't have a copy of my orders (same documents attached). I told them I did and pointed to the form. The owner told me these aren't valid orders and they're actually only a leave form. That is flat out wrong. After more back and forth with me being put in a position of justifying/proving something that should be blatantly obvious to the store owner (claims to be a discharged Army vet), they refused to do the background check and process the paperwork because in his eyes, the attached form was only a leave form and he demanded a wet signed copy of my military orders by my commander. The Air Force (and other branches) haven’t used wet signed orders in several years but because the Army still does, he refused my service.
At that point I called another local FFL (The Army Store) I have dealt with in the past and explained the situation. That owner went above and beyond and agreed to come to Weaponized Armament in person the next day (Saturday, 30 Dec) to take possession of my rifle and I would complete the FFL transfer with them. This was all worked out over the phone while I was still standing in Weaponized Armaments store. They exchanged FFL info and agreed on the pick up for Saturday.
As I was about to leave the store I realized the owner still had my drivers license and military ID card. I asked for them back and at that point he scanned my ID and kept all of my paperwork. I asked why he was keeping all my paperwork when there was no sale or business with them and at that point he told me to stop asking questions, to leave and don't come back. I told him "gladly" but that I needed my paperwork back before I left. He refused. I then explained it was against federal law to copy military ID cards and he told me he has "hundreds on file", that he knows better than me and he would call the cops if I didn't leave. I told him I would call the cops if he didn't give me my paperwork back and stop breaking federal law by copying military IDs. He refused again and I left his store while dialing the local PD. Local PD spoke with the owner who was belligerent with them as well and told Officer Murphy he would let his attorney deal with it.
The next day (Sat, 30 Dec) the owner of The Army Store showed up in person at Weaponized Armament to pick up my rifle per the agreement the day before. The owner refused to release the rifle and told him to leave because he would not do business with me. The owner of Weaponized Armament is trying to make me out to be the one that was out of line in all of this when it was him and his staff that went out of their way to refuse my service and held my rifle. I provided them with all correct paperwork from the start and they still turned me away. Very frustrating to say the least.
The owner of The Army Store is willing to take possession of this firearm and complete the paperwork for me. However, after their last interaction, the owner there doesn't want to have anything to do with Weaponized Armament either. Ideally, Weaponized Armament will drop off or mail my rifle to The Army Store - they are a few blocks from each other. I am also not confident the owners of Weaponized Armament wouldn't have damaged my rifle in some way. The wouldn't allow me to look at the rifle and I have no idea what the condition is (it was sold as a brand new rifle) but they are extremely petty and vindictive..."
In the end I know I'll get my rifle and the ATF will be doing a site visit on these jokers shortly so all will be right in the end. But holy hell.....what a frustrating process! If anyone else ever runs into a similar situation, reach out to the ATF and BBB.
Long story short, I'm active duty military (legal career field) and have purchased several firearms from various local FFLs, including the jokers mentioned above. I'm very familiar with the process and paperwork required for active duty military personnel. I showed up with all required paperwork only to be told by the owner he doesn't think the paperwork is good enough anymore. This isn't backed by any state/federal law or statute, just him deciding to be a prick and demand additional info and make me jump through hoops. This same owner is also breaking federal law by photocopying military ID cards and keeping them on file. He refuses to process my paperwork for the rifle I paid for in full and kicked me and my 7 year old daughter out of his store.
For those interested in the long winded version, I'll paste most of the email I sent to the ATF:
"Thanks for taking my call this morning. Based on our discussion, attached please find all of the information which was provided to Weaponized Armament when I tried to pick up the rifle (paid in full online ahead of time) along with my drivers license and military ID, which they broke the law and scanned. Relevant dates/facts:
My rifle was delivered to Weaponized Armament early in the day Thursday, 28 Dec. I called them later that day to see when would be a good time to pick up my rifle. They were instantly rude on the phone and asked if someone called to tell me it was ready for pick up. I told them no, but saw it was delivered and was just calling ahead to see if there was a convenient time to get it. They wouldn't give an ETA other than, "probably tomorrow".
Friday, 29 Dec I was leaving work for the day and still had not heard from them stating I could pick up my rifle. I picked up my daughter from daycare and stalled for time and still hadn't heard anything. I called them again and asked if I could pick up my rifle. I was rudely told it would be ready in "about 90 minutes". I showed up 90 minutes later with all paperwork attached here (same required paperwork I've used to pick up several other hunting rifles without incident). Even though I had all required documentation, they refused my service which is what was so frustrating and then at the end of the interaction, realized they were breaking federal law which just made them that much more upset with me for pointing that out. This was all recorded as well if there is ever any doubt as to exactly what was said and how this all went down, assuming they didn't delete it all after the fact. (they are making me out to be the bad guy to the ATF in the first conversation with them)
As soon as I walked in the door I was rudely asked why I was there and I told them I was there to pick up my rifle. I handed them the paperwork, my drivers license and my military ID card. The guy behind the counter threw my drivers license back and me and told me they couldn’t do anything for me because it was expired. It was very obvious at this point they were going out of their way to make this as frustrating and as painful as possible. I reminded them (as I've gone through this with them before) it's not truly expired while I'm active duty. They then looked at my military ID card and asked "how do we know this is current"? I thought it was a joke and laughed pointing out the expiration date on the ID. The owner comes over and says "that doesn't mean it’s current, just shows when it expires". I ignored him and finished filling out the background paperwork form.
After I completed the form and gave that back to them, they tell me I don't have a copy of my orders (same documents attached). I told them I did and pointed to the form. The owner told me these aren't valid orders and they're actually only a leave form. That is flat out wrong. After more back and forth with me being put in a position of justifying/proving something that should be blatantly obvious to the store owner (claims to be a discharged Army vet), they refused to do the background check and process the paperwork because in his eyes, the attached form was only a leave form and he demanded a wet signed copy of my military orders by my commander. The Air Force (and other branches) haven’t used wet signed orders in several years but because the Army still does, he refused my service.
At that point I called another local FFL (The Army Store) I have dealt with in the past and explained the situation. That owner went above and beyond and agreed to come to Weaponized Armament in person the next day (Saturday, 30 Dec) to take possession of my rifle and I would complete the FFL transfer with them. This was all worked out over the phone while I was still standing in Weaponized Armaments store. They exchanged FFL info and agreed on the pick up for Saturday.
As I was about to leave the store I realized the owner still had my drivers license and military ID card. I asked for them back and at that point he scanned my ID and kept all of my paperwork. I asked why he was keeping all my paperwork when there was no sale or business with them and at that point he told me to stop asking questions, to leave and don't come back. I told him "gladly" but that I needed my paperwork back before I left. He refused. I then explained it was against federal law to copy military ID cards and he told me he has "hundreds on file", that he knows better than me and he would call the cops if I didn't leave. I told him I would call the cops if he didn't give me my paperwork back and stop breaking federal law by copying military IDs. He refused again and I left his store while dialing the local PD. Local PD spoke with the owner who was belligerent with them as well and told Officer Murphy he would let his attorney deal with it.
The next day (Sat, 30 Dec) the owner of The Army Store showed up in person at Weaponized Armament to pick up my rifle per the agreement the day before. The owner refused to release the rifle and told him to leave because he would not do business with me. The owner of Weaponized Armament is trying to make me out to be the one that was out of line in all of this when it was him and his staff that went out of their way to refuse my service and held my rifle. I provided them with all correct paperwork from the start and they still turned me away. Very frustrating to say the least.
The owner of The Army Store is willing to take possession of this firearm and complete the paperwork for me. However, after their last interaction, the owner there doesn't want to have anything to do with Weaponized Armament either. Ideally, Weaponized Armament will drop off or mail my rifle to The Army Store - they are a few blocks from each other. I am also not confident the owners of Weaponized Armament wouldn't have damaged my rifle in some way. The wouldn't allow me to look at the rifle and I have no idea what the condition is (it was sold as a brand new rifle) but they are extremely petty and vindictive..."
In the end I know I'll get my rifle and the ATF will be doing a site visit on these jokers shortly so all will be right in the end. But holy hell.....what a frustrating process! If anyone else ever runs into a similar situation, reach out to the ATF and BBB.
01-03-2018, 09:40 AM
#2
Fork Horn
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Granbury, TX
Posts: 481
That’s some crazy stuff for sure. I hope you get your rifle soon and they get their act together. I was in the Army for 20 years had a few issues buying guns cause i didnt keep my orders with me all the time so i ended up just changing drivers license each time i pcs’d it wasn’t that much of a pain plus just made everything easier in the end when it came to license tags and even the mp at the gate checking license and doesn’t know which states don’t require you to renew when on active duty . Good luck buddy
01-03-2018, 11:37 AM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,746
You Know that is really screwed up. As long as you got the FFL involved I would also contact your state police and tell them that Weaponized has your rifle that was paid for by you and refuses to pass it to another FFL dealer and is in fact now in possession of your property and considered stolen. (I'm sure you have the serial number on your receipt). I would also contact the DoJ and and the DCIS and tell them about the photo copying of the IDs. They could get a warrant to inspect the property.
01-03-2018, 12:07 PM
#6
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: CO
Posts: 79
You Know that is really screwed up. As long as you got the FFL involved I would also contact your state police and tell them that Weaponized has your rifle that was paid for by you and refuses to pass it to another FFL dealer and is in fact now in possession of your property and considered stolen. (I'm sure you have the serial number on your receipt). I would also contact the DoJ and and the DCIS and tell them about the photo copying of the IDs. They could get a warrant to inspect the property.
That rep at the ATF I've been dealing with just called me back to tell me Weaponized Armament sent or is sending my rifle back to CDNN and that they told me this previously. More lies....they haven't told me anything since this past Friday. No tracking info was provided and there is no telling what condition these jokers will return the rifle, whenever they get around to it. They aren't known for doing anything quickly.
I emailed customer service at CDNN and am hoping they will just send a new rifle today/tomorrow to another local FFL I've dealt with before, the same ones that tried to pick up my rifle this past Saturday.
If anyone wants to leave Weaponized Armament some feedback, there is no way they should have such a high rating on Google/Yelp/etc.
01-03-2018, 12:09 PM
#7
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: CO
Posts: 79
Couldn't agree more. ATF has assured me they will be watching them closely and will be doing a site visit "soon". They're hosed if have anything on file.
01-04-2018, 06:49 AM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Germany/Calif.
Posts: 2,664
I'd have CDNN sports check that rifle out very carefully. Not beyond the realm of possibility they swapped some parts out. Also not beyond the realm of possibility they screwed up the rifle while swapping the parts out. Sounds like they are stalling to me. This may be fraud.
A whole lot of instances of ordered rifles being returned for any old reason and having swapped or broken parts in them.
I always use the local Rod and Gun Club as an FFL.
They sure have changed the system since I've been in. Used to be you took your receipt, registered the rifle (or handgun), returned with your registration card and picked up your rifle or handgun.
A whole lot of instances of ordered rifles being returned for any old reason and having swapped or broken parts in them.
I always use the local Rod and Gun Club as an FFL.
They sure have changed the system since I've been in. Used to be you took your receipt, registered the rifle (or handgun), returned with your registration card and picked up your rifle or handgun.
01-04-2018, 10:11 AM
#10
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: CO
Posts: 79
I'd have CDNN sports check that rifle out very carefully. Not beyond the realm of possibility they swapped some parts out. Also not beyond the realm of possibility they screwed up the rifle while swapping the parts out. Sounds like they are stalling to me. This may be fraud.