Sounds like you will be locked and loaded Rob. Lots of dangerous hombres at the work place and that gang that hangs out at Tims......you better be packin.:guiness:

Tims was robbed at gun point a few weeks ago. Cabot and Hardwick stores robbed as well as car being broken into in Plainfield. Fast money for drugs and I don't plan on being a victim.

Cal, thanks for the info. I'm plenty proficient with handguns but will implement some of your tips to improve. My biggest problem is I much prefer rifle shooting and that gets 90% of my range time.

You're very welcome. I've found that my shooting skills *especially with a pistol) are a perishable skill and require me to practice fairly regularly (at least every month or 2) if I want to maintain them. Most LE agencies and the organizations that advise them recommend they qualify every quarter in a year just to maintain those skills. It doesn't have to be a lot of rounds or a lot of time. But that consistent and regular practice does help. :D

I just read this thread and not being much as far as shooting handguns on a regular basis what did Oldtimr mean by heeling the grip?

Maybe this will help you understand.:
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEV...hooting.ca%2fd
ocs%2fgrp-analysis.pdf/RK=0/RS=C7LmNESx_TDvOZ_WfWHnTP0O.tI-

It can depend on whose definition you read but as I understand it (and YMMV), heeling a handgun is essentially gripping the pistol to low on the grip. This means the web of your hand isn't high on the grip where it is pressed against the beavertail so the pistol can rock back with the muzzle climb and recoil (backwards energy) and lift the muzzle (and front sight) up. IOW, your low grip on the pistol results in you shooting higher than your aiming point. This description is also obviously made with a semi-automatic in mind although the process could affect shooting a fevolver to some degree too.

I didn't see many people doing that so it never came up a lot in training (all with semi-autos for duty guns) although it's a basic part of teaching somebody how to hold a pistol for shooting. It's also something that tends to happen more if you're only shooting with one hand as opposed to using 2 hands.

Since OT brought it up, I'll defer to him on the nuances of it. His agency may have had a different explanation and training sequence. Hopefully this helps some.

What I referred to as heeling is when new shooters poke, for lack of a better term, the gun out just as they pull the trigger which causes the heel of the hand to go down and the muzzle to go up which results in shooting high. I have heard it called trying to help the bullet out of the barrel. We only went to Semi autos in 2005 from 686 S&Ws to glocks so I was referring to revolvers. We always started our people out shooting with one hand because it is easier to see mistakes in grip and form, then transitioned to the two handed grip. I had resigned as a firearms instructor before we went to semis because I didn't have the time anymore with the new position I was in.

Provided link not working.

Thanks guys and, yes, the link is not working.

Bumping this up. A year later, what do you guys like? Thinking I may get one this year.
I guess like most folks, Im looking at finding good reliable gun... that fits well and won't break the bank. TIA!

In the winter months I've been carrying my duty pistol, a glock 17. Heavy clothes it's easy to cover. For a true CCW pistol I'd look at the glock 42 or 43. The springfield XDS, the M&P shield, the SIG P320 is an interesting platform... I have no experience with it but I believe it would be worth you looking in to.


Your best bet is to pick several reliable make/models then go to a big store and hold all of them, see what feels best. Then buy it, and shoot it until you are able to use it under the worst/most stressful situations.
-Jake

I carry the Sig P320 sub-compact. It's trigger is fantastic.

Being a country bumpkin you wouldn't think I would wear a suit but 90% of the time I am out I wear one so concealment for me is easily accomplished. Even when I am wearing jeans I USUALLY have some sort of jacket on. In summer time it's jeans and an un-tucked shirt. When I am wearing a jacket I am usually fit up with a shoulder holster rig as most of my jackets are tailored to fit without printing it. This allows me to get away with carrying full sized rigs in .45 and when tucked in a IWB holster I use a carry size (P227) rather than full.

The wife just informed me that I have a new baby on the way to add to the fold for an anniversary present that I am highly excited about. Sig 1911 Fastback Nightmare Carry in .45. Have I ever told you guys I love my wife :D I have a few Sigs and love each and every one of them. Also have a couple of old Colt 1911 .45's, one of which is without peer my favorite. Old as dirt but still functions flawlessly and is by far my most accurate carry weapon. In my hands anyway. She fits like a well tailored glove and after some trigger work years ago as well as some feed ramp polishing and a little stiffer recoil spring she just flat out works like a well bred Clydesdale.

Are you saying you're gonna be a daddy or a grandpa? Congrats on either way!!

I totally agree on guns that fit a person well--no sense in carrying anything else. Which is why anybody contemplating a CCW pistol should hold, handle and if possible shoot any potential CCW pistols. For me, I do like 1911's and SIGs are so smooth they feel like a DA 1911 but Glocks are something I could shoot, reload and combat reload in my sleep after over 20 years of carrying that platform as a duty gun (that familiarity and fit thing that's so important).

I recently picked up a Glock 42 and 43 like Jake has suggested and am working them through their paces and with various CCW holsters to see what will work the best for me. This is a good topic and a lot of good info has been shared by many.

I have had my Glock 26 (9mm) for over a year now. Really like it and how concealable it is. I use a Stealth Gear iwb holster. It rides nice and is breathable.

Congrats on the new addition you have coming !

WVA, my son carries one of those little Ruger 380's with a laser on it and likes it because it does not weigh much. I do not CC much, I usually have a S&W 5906 and three 17 round mags in a case in the vehicle. Obviously I like some weight in a firearm. For CC I have a Polish surplus P-64 in 9X18 Makarov, it is in the "pocket pistol" category being about the size of a PPK. It is all steel, accurate, reliable and inexpensive. If you get one you should do a recoil and hammer spring replacement from Wolf, the former is a little weak and the latter is way too heavy. The gun costs appx. $250, the springs cost appx. $16. You can put them in yourself if you are careful. These are great little guns.

How often do you have to replace the springs since you mentioned the cost of the springs?

OT, I understand that the P-64 was originally made to shoot much lighter bullets then what we use here and at the same velocity, about 20 grains lighter and with a very hard primer. You can use the stock springs but I changed the original 17 lb recoil spring to a 22 lb. so the little gun takes less battering by the heavier recoil of present ammo. The stock hammer spring is well over 20 lbs., double action shooting with that is nearly impossible. I swapped that for a 18 lb. hammer spring which is still heavy but is doable. The gun operates fine after the spring change, I believe that I will never have to change them again.

Thanks for all the feedback so far. I'll start doing some more research.

Anyone use the Ruger LCP .380? Only reason I ask, local Gander has it on sale for $179 and I have a pretty decent gift card. I have not held one yet. From what I've read, its obviously not a high dollar, high quality gun...but gets the job done.

While a .380 is better than nothing, I want something stouter than that if my life may depend on it. For a gun you are going to carry for protection, price should not be one of the foremost reasons to buy it. You will only have to buy it once, buy the best you can afford and handle a bunch before you buy one.

I carry an LCP daily, as does my wife. We have 2 Gen 1's, a Gen 2, a Gen 2 "Custom," and just picked up an LCP II (Gen 3). The ones on sale currently are Gen 2's.

For the sake of a better trigger and better sights, do NOT buy a Gen 1 original LCP. Nothing wrong with them, but the new Gen 2 trigger and sights are well worth it. The low price models running around now have all been Gen 2's, except for a few remnant FDE and stainless slide Gen 1's.

I'm a guy who catches the specific words people use, so I'll get this out of the way first. When a guy says a pistol is "not high quality," most people would read that to imply the pistol is rather low quality. While the Ruger LCP is, in fact, low cost, it's not low quality. It's a polymer frame, which is inexpensive, but it's as good of quality in manufacture as any Glock, S&W, or Sig polymer gun I've owned. I won't get drawn into a debate with someone who holds the belief all polymer guns are low quality, as such a position is just foolish, and only a fool will argue with one - which I am not.

The LCP Gen 2 has a much better trigger than the Gen 1, and much better sights. Firing timed fire, my wife prints under the palm of her hand at 10yrds, and when firing unlimited time slow fire, she'll ding our 50yrd 10" gong about 80% hit ratio. With my Gen 2 Custom (hideously tall dovetail sights on top and a galloway trigger), I shoot a little tighter group, but don't do as well as she on the 50yrd gong.

I tend to carry my Gen 1, simply because I carried it for a long time before the Gen 2 ever came out. I'm cutting a holster now to start carrying my LCP II (Gen 3).

Even when I carry something else, I carry my LCP as a BUG.

A lot of folks do poo-poo the .380acp, and I can't say they're completely wrong, but they're not right either. In college, I was foolhearty and wanted to make a point, so on a year when our hunting laws were in flux, I took a whitetail doe with a Walther PPK/s .380acp. Short shot, under 20yrds, and she ran AND I the bullet stopped at the inside edge of the far ribs, but she died, not so different tracking job than when bow hunting.

If there were a 9mm as small as an LCP, I'd carry that instead. But there isn't. I also have an LC9 and LC9s, which are about 3/4" taller and longer, as well as a Glock 43 which is an inch longer and a half inch taller. There just isn't a 9mm in the same size class. With the LCP, I can basically drop it into any clothes I could ever wear (I can even wear it while jogging in shorts with no shirt), whereas with the LC9 or G43, that LITTLE BIT of extra size does mean I have to change the way I dress to conceal them appropriately.

The Hogue Grip for the LCP is well worth it. It's a tiny pistol, and the concave sides of the grip are difficult to manage since I only really get about a finger and a half on the grip. Adding the grip sleeve really helps anchor it into my palm so fast fire is possible without it moving around and losing time re-establishing my grip.

I have a LCP Gen 2 with laser sight and love it. I just bought my lady friend a Taurus Curve and like that as well. She didn't like my LCP for a CCW and had a Taurus 380 previously as a CCW, but didn't like the trigger at all. So I bought her a Curve and she likes that much better. I carry my LCP as a BUG as well in my pocket with a soft holster. I carry Winch PDX and Horn Critical Duty rounds in it and a spare mag. Neither of us have any issues with any of them. I have had her do drills with shooting from inside a jacket pocket to CQB drills. I keep her to no more than 7yds. Exactly what the weapon was designed for.

Based on the above 2 posts, I'd say go for that Ruger if it fits you well. As for .380 ammo, check out the Hornady Critical defense 90 grain FTX ammo. It's almost as good as the 9mm ammo. Here's a link so you can see some of the ammo testing by caliber.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

While being big has it's advantages (not many tend to get aggressive towards men of my stature) it does have it's drawbacks. The few that are stupid enough to get aggressive towards me are dangerously stupid or at least near my own size. While the .380 isn't my own personal choice (haven't seen one yet that wouldn't get lost in my gorilla hands) it is plenty adequate to get a bad guy off you. And with today's bullet technology and ammo choices, it has plenty of umph at personal defense ranges. "Stopping power" is generally a misnomer. Without a head or spinal disconnect, not much out there will drop anyone in their tracks if they have their adrenaline up or coked or methed up. Even with my big ole .45's I surely wouldn't expect a single shot to eliminate an aggressive encounter. That's what I practice triple tap (2 to center mass and one to the head).

I couldn't agree more. I would choose S&W Shield 9mm over the LCP. Much more solid firearm. Use your Gander bucks for ammo to get familiar with your new pistol and a holster. You won't be wasting any money.

Last thought is find a range with rental pistols and maybe they will have the pistols you are interested in available for rental.

The Hornady critical defense is about as hot and good as you are going to get in .380 but it really can't be considered almost as good as 9mm. Here's a formula I use.

diameter x weight x velocity / 7000.

9MM (9mm = .3543)
.3543 X 115 X 1250/7000 = 7.27
.3543 X 124 X 1200/7000 = 7.53
.3543 X 147 X 1038/7000 = 7.72


.380 AUTO (.380)
.380 X 90 X 1000/7000 = 4.88

Matt - what is the minimum Taylor Factor (the formula you use) for defense cartridges? I can stack up energy numbers against your 9mm to show it's inferior to a .357sig, and then further the Sig is inferior to a .40 (Taylor factor), which itself is inferior to a 45, which is inferior to a .44mag... But we started with a 9oz pistol which is easily managed and ended up at a full frame revolver weighing nearly 3lbs with recoil said to be the maximum manageable limit for most shooters... All with 5 simple numbers...

The entire .380 vs 9mm, 9mm vs. 45, 45acp vs 44mag debate structure is flawed. You can always stack the cards to show the more powerful cartridge is more powerful...

What isn't readily told by these numbers, is the minimum requirement for killing the affected target. Nobody is surprised to be reminded a 9mm is more powerful than a .380 - but it's not really pertinent when a .380 is "enough".

Sometimes a bigger hammer is needed, sometimes a bigger hammer is just heavier and harder to swing.

The Russians, East Germans, Poles, etc. all used the 9X18 Makarov as a police and military arm for a long time and it is hardly more powerful then the .380. Agreed, the more powerful calibers will do more damage and will serve at longer ranges. But in a CC size firearm the .380 is about all most folks want to shoot. I once had a Beretta Minx in .22 short(swapped it off, darn it). I would not want to be on the receiving end of that, let alone a .380.

I guess "almost" depends on how you rate something. If you think something must be 95% plus to be almost as good, then probably not. If you're realistically trading size and some performance for concealability (your requirements may vary from situation to situation), then it could be considered "almost" as good. If it's the difference between being able to carry CCW or not, the a small .380 might just fit the bill.

In the site testing I referred to earlier (scroll to the bottom of the link I posted), they had these results:

Hornady 90 grn FTX Critical Defense .380 ammo—14.1” penetration, .39” expansion and 910 FPS. Some expanded as much as .63” but didn’t penetrate to that ideal 12-18” per FBI standards.

The new Winchester 147 grn Ranger T series 9mm ammo has 16.5” penetration, .74” expansion at 941 FPS but that is an exception in 9mm ammo as most only expand in the .40’s/.50’s”.

Most of the .40S&W ammo reliably expands to .60’s/.70’s” while staying in the FBI preferred penetration zone (12-18”).

The new Winchester 230 grn Ranger T series .45 ammo penetrates 14.5” and expands to an amazing 1.0” while moving at 900 FPS. That’s truly impressive. But most of the .45 ammo available expands to somewhere between .40’s to .80’s.

Now full disclosure, I pack a .45 for duty and before that always carried a 40. I like big bullets but can tell you from personal experience that larger calibers don't always stop a bad guy in his tracks. 12 gauge buckshot or slugs work much better as do certain rifle bullets. But we're talking pistols and CCW here. And as always, the OP like the rest of us will have to make his best decision based upon his particular CCW needs which can vary by situation to situation.

While the ruger doesn't fit my hands, My father, mother, and sister all have one, and all carry them regularly. My dads has had allot of rounds through it with no issues. He regularly carries it while bicycling, hiking, and even running. For small size, and cost, you really can't beat the Ruger.
-Jake

I agree with what you are saying. Numbers are just numbers.

Looking at how this thread has became a power debate I think it is a disservice to the OP. First and foremost I would recommend a reliable CC firearm because it's vital that it goes bang everytime the trigger is pulled. And then it has to be comfortable to the individual shooter where they can be proficient with it.

The Springfield XDs in 45 is right down your alley, and about as good as it gets! To ME, the XD/XDs/XDm model lines are superior to Glocks, for MY uses due to the no dry fire field strip, match grade barrel of the XDm/XDs, the PERFECT grip angle (what Glock TRIED to do), and the grip safety that you never notice but easily depressed when grabbing/holding it as if you're getting ready to fire it. If you want a lot of firepower for true pocket carry, the Kahr CM-40 s almost the size of most .380s, and ever smaller than some, but shooting the potent .40 S&W round, which is WAYYY above .380 effectiveness. It's NOT a fun gun for the range, but will easily do the job and you don't have that nagging doubt in the back of your about it's effectiveness like if you were carrying .380 or .32. ANY gun carried in the pocket HAS to be in a pocket holster!!!!!!!!!!! Other wise it WILL get all kinds of pocket lint in it, and possibly make it non functional, and/or it WILL turn to a angle that makes it all but impossible to draw even fairly decently fast.

Thanks for all the good info guys. Appreciate it!

Rob, let us know what you decided and why. It will be helpful to anybody else reading this topic and trying to make a similar decision.

I carry the Smith and Wesson M&P Shield .45 and LOVE IT!!! S&W got it right with this one. Shoots straight and recoil is not bad. The pistol is very comfortable to carry.

I have a G-30 and I really like it the little I've actually fired it. What i don't like is the weight with a fully loaded magazine. I wish the 30 SF were around when I got the G-30.

What I carry everywhere and I wouldn't trade it for anything is a little Sig P938.
I bought a S&W M&P 45 Shield a little over a month ago. I haven't carried it and don't know if I will.

Anyone wanting a Shield S&W from 4/1 thru 6/30 is offering a 75.00 rebate on the 9mm ,40 cal and 45 Shields. The bodyguard 380's have a 50.00 mail in rebate. I wish I had waited buying my Shield.

I have the G30SF and have carried it for several years. I probably have over a thousand rounds through it and it shoots well. It also carries well in a belt holster or gun bag.

Pretty rare weapon, not much fun to shoot at all really but its not for fun. It was discontinued because limp wristing was regularly mistaken for malfunctions.

9+1 capacity 40 S&W in a very small package