Lefty guns and good calibers
 

I currently own a left handed ruger m77 Hawkeye in 30-06 I am looking to buy a new rifle what caliber ? And what brand. Normally I hunt deer and elk the deer around 100-400 yard shots elk more around 200

Seems to me that you already have a rifle for that ?!?!

You want one more for deer, or more for elk; or maybe bear or something to shoot dogs and cats with ??

buy a used remington 700, have it rebarreled, its what I do

or have them built



RR

Yes I own a 30-06 but have an option to buy a 300 win. Is the 300 win that much better?

Proven fact all things shot with magnum calibers stops the heart .005 seconds faster. Looked it up on the internet.

At the ranges you're talking about, you won't notice a difference in lethality, just the cost of the ammo.
Stick with the '06. It's cheaper to shoot, less recoil, making it easier to practice with. More practice will make you more successful than just upping the power of the cartridge. You can't miss them fast enough to kill them.

Ain't nothing wrong with the old '06 for your intentions. But on the other hand, there's no reason not to get another rifle if you want to. The 300WM will only give you a couple hundred fps in bullet speed and some more KE. But with a well placed bullet no animal is going to know the difference.
If you are looking for another rifle why not go down and get something like a 7mm-08? A great deer cartridge and although IMO minimal, can be used for elk.
As for production guns you have far more choices than us old timer lefties had. Almost every major manufacturer makes a left hand version of their rifles. I personally have a preference to Browning and Tikka.

After many many years of "justifying" the reason for this rifle or that rifle to the boss (wife) I have become somewhat of an expert in "justification".Now, it seems to me, that you just want a new rifle. Something different. Because in all reality, you have the perfect one for your needs. The .30/06 has more than enough "horsepower" to take anything on the North American Continent. Even the Brown Bear with the right load. Factory ammo is plentiful and also has MANY different loading's to meet different needs. My own personal opinion of the 300 win mag is that it's not needed at all. (Yes I do own a barrel for the TC and also a bolt but that doesn't in any way mean I NEEDED them) As long as you limit your range on Elk to 300 and under, a quality 160+ grain pill on top of a .30/06 cartridge is all you would ever need. But far be it from me to say NO DON'T DO IT! Because some people just love to get the hell knocked out of them at the range by the magnums. Some people love to pay outlandish prices for ammo. The .300WM is a long range cartridge. Plain and simple. People seem to think that it's some magical answer to poor shot placement. Or that it is some magical answer to being able to shoot past their limited range abilities. It isn't. I can load up a .30/06 cartridge to pretty much match any factory loaded .300WM and in 2 of my .06 rifles I can range with ANY .300WM factory rifle at 1000 yards. The .300WM is just an overrated magnum just like most of the others.

reguardless of what the naysayers post, cubic inches makes horsepower, at the far reaches of a rifles capabilities, yes the 300 winny is that much better. my overated 7mm Allen Magnum will run a 160 accubond at almost 3600 fps, that amounts to a lot less clicks up at a grand than the 280 rem, or the 7mm mag, the less you haveta spin the knob or estimate using a BDC, the less chance for a screw up. and the more energy you deliver on target, to 300 yards you will see no difference.
RR

Not very many people attempt, or SHOULD attempt shots out there past 300-400 yards RR. You know that as well as I do. Not everyone practices anywhere NEAR the amount of time they need to to deliver a kill shot rather than a gut shot at extreme range. Most people don't even have access to ranges further than 200 yards for practice. I do, you do, and a few others do. And like you said, to 300 yards, you won't see any difference at all. In general, most any rifle nowadays will outperform the person. At reasonable ranges, he was asking if the .300WM is that much better. In my mind, a reasonable range for the average, hell even better than average, shooter is 400yds MAX. 300 for most. And at that reasonable range, the answer is nope it aint that much better. More expensive to shoot? Yep. Hell on the shoulder with most factory rifles? Yep.

he asked if it was that much better, in the realm where it performs well it is, I say this because I have a lot of experience in that realm. if you have the accuracy and the knowledge to "go there" the 300 winny will trump the '06 every time. he didn't elaborate on should he or should he not try it, I was basing my opinion on the capabilities of the cartridge, not the shooter.
RR

Most of us struggle with that......................

Someone said recently (Buff I think); bench shooting is to tell how good your rifle shoots, not how good you shoot !!! :hit:

Based on what he said in his OP "deer ranges 100-400 yards, Elk more around 200" is what I formed my opinion on. Both cartridge as well as shooters needs. Out to 400 yards, the .06 will kill a deer or an elk just as dead and just as fast. As I said before, the .300WM is a long range cartridge. It was what it was designed for. And as you yourself said, at the ranges he said he hunts at, it is in no way needed other than just to have. Which there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either. I just answered his question based on the information he provided. If he doesn't reload and want's to send $2.50 (average price for quality ammo) a shot down range and be black and blue after about 5 shots then more power to him. And RR, don't try to tell us that you don't like that little puppy 6.5Creed more than than shoulder cracking 7mm Allen! :s1:

Most of us know that the advantage of trajectory and power will always go to the case with the most capacity for powder. The advantage of the 300 WM vs. 30-06 at 400 yards would be trajectory of a few inches and a few hundred ft lbs of energy. Neither cartridge with a 200 yard zero would be aiming out of the body for hold on a deer. Neither cartridge is lacking ft lbs of energy to get the job done.

A bad angle or a bad hit neither cartridge has the advantage. It has always been from what I've seen in the field 500 yards is the playing field where all this really starts to matter. Time of flight matters. Trajectory matters. Bullet design matters. Optics matters. Getting a rest matters.

Remember this if your not aiming at hair your wrong. That simply means your target is far enough that you have come off the body at your point of aim and you better know your trajectory and distance your shooting at. When you blow a leg off an elk it don't matter how hard it got hit a three legged elk still can climb mountains faster and longer than you can. Tighten your laces up because your in for a hell of a day or days.

I say buy the 300 WM. If you can't shoot it as well as the 30-06 because of recoil find a way to tame it. This is the modern day they do make such things to stop that punishment. Put a bigger more aerodynamic bullet in it and take advantage of that case capacity. Or take the next step and buy a 300 RUM and I can't believe I just said that but if your going to take a plunge jump a little further. You will need a break for that one.

Large magnums don't like pencil barrels that well. Just sayin. But then again what do I know.

Although the .300 WM will buy you a longer effective range (maybe 75 to 100 yards) I think it's biggest advantage comes by using heavier bullets. I never shoot bullets weighing less than 180 grains from my .300 WM and have had good results with 200 grain pills. When I use a .30-06 the heaviest bullet I shoot is a 180 but more often I use 150 or 165 grain bullets.

Both cartridges have advantages over the other but at the end of the day they are both .308" and for most practical hunting ranges both cartridges will do the job just fine.

I load up 220gr RN for Moose medicine Uncle. Good out to 200 yards with that pill out of my .06. Only reason I limit it to that range is that My Barrel really doesn't like it that well and the groups open up to 1 1/4" or so so I zero at 100. With the best load that my barrel wouldn't show pressure signs from I was only 1" low at 200. I could probably go out to 400 and find it trustworthy but with it grouping a little fishy I just don't have the faith in it. Not to mention it's a VERY rare thing I can't get closer than 200 anyway where I hunt. Hell Most shots are within 100.

I hit a bull moose square in the brisket with my 30-06 using Sierra 180 gr Game King bullet at about 200 yards. He lurched backward and ambled off only about 50 yards and stood broadside where I then hit him twice more through both lungs and he fell in 20 yards.
Upon examining the first bullet path it hit hit just left of center, took out the left lung and lodged about midbody in the left backstrap. That bullet penetrated 24"-30" through some tough cartlidge and muscle.

here is my assessment of the 300 winny, it is definitely a multi-purpose cartridge, an absolute hammer at close range on anything that eats grass, will take the big bears effectively with tough bullets.
Where it shines is with a big scope a long heavy barrel, and a big skinny bullet, put a 30" barrel on one, a repeatable scope, and a bullet with a BC approaching .7 and its a totally different beast.
RR

"Where it shines is with a big scope a long heavy barrel, and a big skinny bullet......."

I always love it when someone speaks plain English.

I'd hunt 99% of the game in the entire world with that rig. Personally I wouldn't try and reinvent the wheel. But if you want a new rig, just about every major maker has left handed models in a number of calibers that will work. Check them all and see which one you like best.

A 30/06 won't kill anything anymore. How all those animals died in the past must've been magic. For deer, a 7mm Rem Mag is the absolute MINIMUM and it must have a premium type bullet these days. For elk, man they really have gotten tough in the last 20 years, so you'll need at least a 338 RUM with a 250gr bullet and need to limit your shots to under 300 yards or else the bullet will just bounce off.

The problem with posts asking which gun to buy or whch caliber is best, what the poster gets is a littiney of everyone favorite gun and or caliber. In the end, they are left with chosing from a long list which puts them exactly where they were before they asked the question. These are questions best ask of one or two people you know and trust or someone you know who is an expert who can ask you questions and based on them give you an answer that is best for you rather than push their favorite firearm and or caliber.

This post illustrates the "grain of salt" that I think has to accompany some of the advice that Ridge offers on here (and a few other users). This isn't at all a statement of criticism, but moreso one of jealousy/respect/admiration - guys like Ridge have VERY DIFFERENT demands for their rifles, so the advice they give is often skewed in that light.

Most of us average hunters will never become so capable behind a rifle to be so demanding that we can make assertions like Ridge's above. If all you do behind the wheel of a car is drive a few blocks uptown to the grocery store, then the horsepower difference between a V8 Mustang, a 4banger Honda Civic, and a 690hp Lamborghini Aventador, except the cost we pay at the pump. I ride a motorcycle that will do occasionally 160mph in a straightline with 140hp - incredibly fast and powerful for a guy that just toodles around the countryside, but it's NOTHING compared to the MotoGP guys running tracks over 200mph.

I'd never say a person shouldn't use a 300 eargenshplitezen loudenboomer magnum for hunting whitetails at 200yrds or less, any more than I'd say a person shouldn't drive a lambo or ride a Hayabusa to the grocery store - but a guy doesn't really need that much power to do such a simple job. For most of us, the 300win mag just costs more powder or ammo cost, and more recoil - but the deer/elk/bear at 200yrds or less on the other end isn't any more dead.

Equally, the 30-06 will kill anything in the world if well placed at the right ranges. The 300win mag has advantages for guys like Ridge or Jeep or a few others here that can weigh and measure the 30-06 and find it wanting. These same guys will have a short trip from the max of a 30-06 to reach the max of a 300win mag, but it's still further along the spectrum than they were before.

That said, I have a couple 30-06's and 300WM's in my safes. If I had to pick only one, it'd be a long barreled, big scoped 300win mag, simply because I'm working on learning to shoot like guys like Ridge and Jeep (and a few others).

Well said, Nomercy. A well placed 30 06 or 270 will handle any situation. Unless long shots are the norm, an ubermagnum dinosaursmashemflatten is moot. The shooter must contend with higher cost for ammunition and get their lights knocked out every time that they pull the trigger. I sold all of my super mags as they are fun too shoot, but they don't kill any better than a properly placed, in my case, .277 bullet. I see so many at the range sighting in their super magnums, and they are terrified of them. They flinch and cringe anticipating the recoil of them. A flinch is a very hard habit to break once it starts happening. If I was still hunting in grizzly kitchen all of the time, then, yes, I would still be packing the 340 and the 375 H&H, but that is not the case now, as walking is a real problem. With the 270 Weatherby, I am more than capable of making extreme range kills, and not have to wipe the snot off my face each time that I drop the hammer. Bigger isn't always better. I see people hunting my areas for whitetail and mules with 338 378 Weatherby magnums regularly. Yes, the deer fall down, but that is waaaaay too much for a deer. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. I have shot them with 458 Winchester magnums, but that just isn't needed, as there are no elephants on this continent.

maybe its just me, but the reason I say they are a different animal built heavy and set up for extended range is twofold actualy, before I get started I apologise to the OP for the hijack.
I have 2 large 7mm's, the first is a 7mmstw, rem. 700 action which has been trued and accurised, 28" lilja 9 twist #5 contour barrel, 6.5x20 leupold vari-x III. runs a 160 accubond at 3340 fps. my main hunting load is a nosler 140 BT at 3550 fps, averages 3/8" at 100 yards. It tips the scales at 8 lbs. 2 oz. I have taken 20 some deer and a couple bear from 40 to 600'ish yards.
the second is the 7mm Allen Mag, 700 trued action, 30" 9 twist lilja #8 contour, 6.5x20 leupy mark 4 M1 TMR, runs a 160 at 3575 fps averages 1/4" at 100 yards weighs in at 14#
the allen will group 3-4 inches consistently at 750 yards, the stw will not break 7" at that distance.
However the games reaction to a solid hit at 200-400 yards from the stw can't even be compared to my 7mm-08, or my 7mm RM, its just totally different, only 2 animals have taken a step after being hit, the rest just melted to the ground to never even twitch.
I often wish I would just rebarrel the stw to the same chambering with a 30" #7 contour, add a stock that would get the weight up to around 12#, and load it up with a 200 gr wildcat with a BC of .84 running right at 3K and see how it will compare to the allen, but long as it kills like the hammer of Thor to 500 yards, think I'll leave it alone.
RR

Sheesh, next thing you know, RR is gonna be out there hunting whitetail with guided missiles :p

You have no idea how close I came to ordering a Tac-50, was writing the check when the thought "35 rounds to the pound" hit me and I chickened out, If I would have known about WC872 at the time I would own one today!
RR

Oh don't get me twisted, I like Big Bore bad boys, I just like them big and slow. I have quite a few rifles that I have to go in search of my damn shoulder after shooting. 500NE double comes to mind. Monster to shoot, but lordy does it deliver the "hammer Of Thor" as you put it on a hog! Had a Barrett .50 for a while. Nothing slow about that thing except recovery. Sold it to an old Military friend since I just had it for plinking at 1500m :p One of those "Mines bigger than yours" moments ya know. Wife made me sell it. Dang wimmin :alien:

But like Mercy and I both kind of put it, not everyone has the ability to shoot out to where a .300WM performs better than an .06. Actually, few people possess that ability. They may have the WILL to do it, but that doesn't mean they SHOULD be trying it. Just seen too many gut shot or leg shot critters in my years from people thinking they had a "magic magnum" so they could reach out to 700 yards.

that's what I don't get, I have taken 60 some deer beyond 400 yards, 27 of which were beyond 700, 11 were beyond 1000, and 3 broke 1200, and never lost 1, and had several bad hits, they do not run at those distances, they just bed up, and you finish them or let them expire, I've had harder times finding those I saw fall DRT in the scope.
don't get me wrong, not saying they never run, but every deer I have shot or saw shot at long range that ran was on a lung shot death dash.
RR

Again, not everyone has that ability RR. What you and I would call a pi$$ poor shot at 700 are what many folks DREAM of hitting at long range. Lung shot death dashes create a really nice blood trail. Gut shots don't. I personally wont take a shot past 400 just simply for the reason that no matter how well you can read a critter, critters move at the LEAST opportune times. Like right when you break the trigger. In my youth (yeah I know they hadn't even invented gunpowder yet) I took those shots every now and again but hiking 6 miles up and down 2 mountains trying to get up on a leg shot bull elk cured me of that crap quick and easy. I didn't calculate down angle correctly on a 725 yard shot. Like a previous poster stated, you would be friggin surprised how far a 3 legged Elk can go! Had I been less "lazy" I could have easily gotten within 150 yards.

your last post tells me all I need to know, so I'm done with this topic. study up on ballistics and get back with me.
RR

There are lots of shooters that only relate to the paradigm that long shots are taken out of desperation, when a hunter can't get closer.

Bowhunters make the same type of statements about guys that shoot deer at 70yrds.

The fact that I CAN get close to deer is irrelevant, because of the fact that I CAN kill them cleanly at 600yrds with a rifle or 70yrds with a bow. Taking a long shot doesn't mean I'm desperately taking the only shot I can get - it means I have game within my effective range for the weapon I'm carrying, and I'm leveling a shot that I'm proficient enough to take.

If a guy really wanted to walk around with a ruler in his pocket, you could ask - I don't know why anyone ever shoots 50yrds, it's too risky and deer will run off... It's no more true than saying someone shouldn't shoot 500yrds or 1,500yrds for those reasons, but it's just as ignorant.

With a Bow, I don't take shots past 40 for penetration reasons. I like clean pass throughs with 2 nice big holes to bleed that critter out nice and quick. I practice with Bow at ridiculous yardages to increase my confidence level at the yardages I set for myself for hunting. I look at it like this, If I can hit my mark consistently at 70-80 yards then 40 yards is a chip shot and one that I know will 99% of the time pass through cleanly and not with the arrow hanging in there plugging up the hole somewhat. With rifle there are just too many variables, including animal behavior, for the AVERAGE hunter to be taking shots past 400 yards.

The original OP was asking about the differences between the 30.06 and the 300WM at ranges 400 yards MAX that he hunts at. At his SPECIFIED ranges the answer is, there isn't enough difference between the 2 to constitute the expense of a 300WM in ammo and recoil increase.

And RR, I answered your little "challenge" the other day in PM so's not to hijack the thread.

read that! and I used the wrong term on my last post, you came across as a typical long range anti
If you had as much experience shooting game at extended ranges as you talk about
1) you would know that gut shot whitetails do not run when shot beyond 600 yards, they cannot relate the sound of the shot that far off to danger, they are hurt and just bed up, some don't go 10 yards before laying down
2) if you knew the quarry, you could tell watching they're "body language" when you had the shot window. you do not shoot them if their head is down, you do not shoot them if they are looking at something. When they have weight on both front feet, staring into the distance, listening there is your window, they will not move for over 1/2 second, that gives the bullet time to get there.
It takes much patience but it is really not hard to figure out, I once had an 8 point in my crosshairs for over 3 hours before the shot window appeared, he never took a step after impact.
RR

Na, to each their own as far as long range hunting RR. I don't care for it for reasons stated. I feel most others shouldn't attempt it for reasons stated (Lack of practice shooting long distance). But that is a topic for another thread.
Edit to add: And BTW, when I stated "Less Lazy" on that post, I was meaning ME in that instance because I could very well HAVE gotten much closer but I had just hiked a little over 3 miles (most of it up hill) when I spotted the Bull and I just said to hell with it rather than continue the hike. In other words, lazy.

Take it !!!


All others........................

" A man has to know his limitations" Dirty Harry :happy0001: